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Torment 7-10: Benefits of Higher Difficulty

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Flux, Jul 7, 2015.

  1. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]One topic that came up on the Podcast was the issue of Torment 10, and if the higher difficulty was worth the effort. Experience greatly increases on the higher torment difficulty levels that are added to the game in Patch 2.3.0, but how do the other benefits such as higher legendary drop rate, more cache materials, better KeyWarden KeyMachine drops, more material drops, etc, stack up?

    This is, of course, a very premature evaluation since the PTR is only a week old and we'll likely see a lot of adjustments to drop rate and rewards over the remainder of the patch testing. Furthermore, with the +2000% legendary drop rate buff, it's impossible to judge how much higher difficulty levels add to your loot, since even on T1, virtually every Elite and chest and goblin drops at least one legendary. That said...

    Is Torment X Worth It?



    My initial impression from the PTR was that T10 (TX?) wasn't worth it. Starting off on the PTR, my Demon Hunter was geared enough that T7 and even T8 didn't feel much/any slower to clear than T6 does on live, especially once I got Kanai's Cube and improved my performance with full time double Unity and Hexing Pants. (Sadly/oddly, there's no weapon buff that substantially boosts the physical form of Natalya's.) T10 felt slower, though.

    Not much more dangerous (I'm playing HC, but with the double Unity buff I wasn't feeling much pain), and trash mobs still folded up almost instantly, but Elites and Goblins took noticeably longer to kill, and I had to kite/spin around quite a bit during boss confrontations, especially if I missed or didn't crit some 6 billion killshot with my Crashing Rain proc. Which made T10 not worth it, when I could have cleared twice as fast on T8.

    [caption id="attachment_384698" align="alignright" width="350"][​IMG] PTR Patch 2.3.0 buff.[/caption]YMMV of course, especially if you're playing softcore and can gear for much higher damage... but as I tested more thoroughly, I found there were other drop bonuses that made T10 more valuable than T8, and that made T8 more valuable than T6. Bear in mind that T1-T6 jump the equivalent of 3 GRs each, but T7-T10 jump 5 GRs each, so T6 = GR25, T7 = GR30, T8 = GR35, T9 = GR40, and T10 = GR45.

    Note: All % figures below are estimates based on preliminary play testing; hopefully Blizzard will release exact numbers but until then take these estimates with grains of salt:

    • Torment 6: +1600% EXP, 1 Death's Breath per elite*, 1 Rift Key per Guardian, 2 Horadric Cache materials, 50% chance of 1 Machine from KWs, 100% chance of 1 Organ per Uber.
    • Torment 7: +1900% EXP, 5% chance of 2 DBs per Elite*, 5% chance for 2 Rift Keys per Guardian, 3 Horadric Cache materials, 60% (?) chance of 1 machine from KWs, 50% (?) chance of 2 Organs per Uber.
    • Torment 8: +2300% EXP, 10% chance of 2 DBs per Elite*, 15% chance of 2 Rift Keys per Guardian, 3 Horadric Cache materials, 70% (?) chance of 1 machine from KWs, 90% (?) chance of 2 organs per Uber.
    • Torment 9:+2750% EXP, 20% chance of 2 DBs per Elite*, 25% chance of 2 Rift Keys per Guardian, 4 Horadric Cache materials, 80% (?) chance of 1 machine from KWs / 10% chance of 2 machines from KWs, 50% chance of 3 organs per Uber.
    • Torment 10:+3300% EXP, 33% chance of 2 DBs per Elite, 50% chance of 2 Rift Keys per Guardian, 4 Horadric Cache materials, chance for bonus Cache legs**, 90% (?) chance of 1 machine from KWs / 33% chance of 2 machines from KWs, 90% chance of 3 organs per Uber.


    * You may also get double Death's Breaths from golden chests and Goblins.
    ** On T10 I got 2 RoRGs from the same A1 cache, and 2 Coven's Criterion from the same A2 cache. Bug or RNG or Feature?

    To summarize, as you go up to T8 and higher, your chances of getting double Death's Breaths drops increase, you'll find more Rift Keys per Guardian, you'll almost always see 1 Machine from each KeyWarden and sometimes get 2, and you'll get more Organs per Uber. Plus much higher exp

    Click through for full Torment EXP scaling details, why Hellfire Amulets are so much faster to make playing T10, plus disclaimers.



    [caption id="attachment_384784" align="alignright" width="123"][​IMG] Torment 7-10 = +5 GRs.[/caption]Infernal Machine parts increase greatly on higher Torment levels

    I did the Ubers (for the Infernal Machine) twice on T8 and got 1/2/2/2 and 2/2/2/2 organs from the 4. In two games on T10 I got 2/3/3/3 and 3/3/3/2, from the 4. This means that in a single T10 game, you will usually be able to make 2 Hellfire Amulets, and will often be part way to a third or even fourth. From killing the KWs and doing the Ubers in a single game! (In the current live game on Torment 6 you can, at best, get 1/4 of the materials required to obtain a HFA in a single game.)

    Blood Shards per Guardian also increase on T7-T10. The current game caps it at ~100 on T6, but it seems to increase 20-30 per Torment above T6. (Current PTR Blood Shard rewards are doubled, so it's hard to say for sure what the T7-T10 shard drops are.)

    Beware PTR Changes



    The biggest issue is that Blizzard can and probably will tweak the drop rates and reward flow during the PTR testing.

    Also, as mentioned above, it's impossible to estimate leg drop rates while the +2000% community buff is active. Trying to tell the diff in leg drop rates above T5 now is like trying to measure humidity underwater. The same is also somewhat true of experience, since the community buff has all EXP +300%, so it floods in faster than you can track it anecdotally.

    Also, with the endless queues to play on the PTR, our testing time has been limited, so the figures above are all anecdotal. I've done 2 games each (all or most of the act bounties + some Rifts + Infernal Machine) on T7, T8, and T10, but haven't actually played T9 at all, so the figures above are just estimations. Also, without playing dozens of games, it's impossible to drill down into the RNG for unusual events like KeyWardens. In 2 games on T8 I got 7/8 keys, all single drops. And in 2 games on T10 I got keys from all 8, plus 3 double keys.

    [gallery link="file" ids="384689,384690,384691,384692"]

    That said, there are definitely benefits to pushing up past T6. Which difficulty you'll find most rewarding varies by your gear, class, build, etc, and by what you want to gain. If you're just after fast killing, Rift Keys, and some exp/legs, you might be better off doing a bunch of speed Rifts in T8. If you want Hellfire Amulets you want to play on T10 to get more machine drops and Organs from the Ubers. If you're after Horadric Cache materials, you'll want to do T8 or higher to be sure you get the maximum 4 mats per cache.

    And once again, bear in mind we're a week into the PTR and most of these values will be tweaked during further testing.

    What do you guys think of the varied rewards for T7 and higher? Do you like the idea of different sweet spots for different styles of play? Will you soldier through T10 no matter what, because epeen?
    Continue reading the Original Blog Post.
     
  2. mjinspace

    mjinspace IncGamers Member

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    Generally I've found that T10 is not worth it unless you were easily doing GR45 previous to the patch.

    However, if you weren't just take some time to build up your power level via Kanai's Cube, then go to town on T10.

    Personally I find it great fun to do T10. I think Lyndon's quote sums it up: "Oooh, now I'll have to actually pay attention!"
     
  3. PrvtPiLe

    PrvtPiLe IncGamers Member

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    Those rewards sound decent enough. It will be interesting to see if there is a choice between speed-farming T8, or so, and doing a slightly slower T10 run. I'm skeptical though. I don't really see anyone running anything less than T10, but I guess I'll have to see. I haven't bothered trying to get into a T10 game yet.
     
  4. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    There's is very clearly a choice, unless you can faceroll T10. At that point T10 becomes a nobrainer of course. Before that however pushing above the difficulty that's efficient for you is likely only worth it if you're looking to craft Hellfire Amulets. For Legendary and Cube Material farming I feel you're still better off if you stick to the difficulty where you can kill Elites in around 5-10 seconds or even less.
     
  5. Numes

    Numes IncGamers Member

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    I would think it would be MachineWarden instead of KeyWarden, right? I love the new Torment Levels. T8 and T9 were just right. T10 definitely took a significantly longer time that it was not worth it, but it will be fun to continue to gear up to get to where T10 is viable in terms of reward vs. speed. I hope that the material drops go up with each torment level rather than they are now, otherwise there would be almost no reason to take the extra time.
     
  6. Numes

    Numes IncGamers Member

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    *I was speaking about Horadric Cache materials only. I was seeing 4 drops on T8, T9, and T10.
     
  7. PrvtPiLe

    PrvtPiLe IncGamers Member

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    Well yeah, but that's my point. Of course you won't run T10 if your character can't - that's obvious. But you won't run T6 as it is now if you can't... That doesn't mean that it isn't completely accepted that T6 is the 'thing to do' now on live - there's no reason to ever run anything below T6 (unless of course you don't have any gear).


    The question is will T10 be like 'The Old T6' i.e. beyond ANYONE's gear-level to split bounties/whatever. e.g. I remember when everyone split Normal A1 bounties; it was more efficient for getting a RoRG than doing T6, because T6 was beyond anyone's gear-level to speed run. Now on Live you split run T6, because everyone vastly out-gears it. In 2.3 will fully-geared chars split T10, or will some things be more efficient farming on lower Ts?
     
  8. Jcakes

    Jcakes IncGamers Member

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    Split normal was also because cache drops were the same regardless of difficulty level.
     
  9. HardRock

    HardRock IncGamers Member

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    Given that people at the top are doing GR60+ (or even GR70+, like Monks do on the PTR) I have no doubts that T10 will become the new farming difficulty, even for split farming, since it's equivalent to the difficulty of GR45 "only". In all likelyhood initially a smaller percentage of players will be using it for efficient farming, but with the new sets and more legendary powers we have access to that will surely change in the future as people figure out the most optimal builds.
     
  10. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    I did a couple of games on T7 and was pretty sure it was 3 mats per cache. T8 definitely is 4.

    I did a game on T9 today for testing, and double DBs seemed to be about 25-33% of the time from elites. I got a machine from all 4 wardens, but no doubles. Also, I got 2 legs each in all 5 caches, so maybe that's 100% on T9 and up? (And those are the special Cache legs, not a cache and a random. I got the amulet and shoulders in a1, 2 shields in a2, gloves and boots in a3, etc.)

    Humorous thing, once the season merged I had some old D3v infernal machines in my stash, so I did 3 of those in teh game on T9... and got 2/3/3 of the organs. Those are the old level 60 organs that only made HF rings. So I made 2 hellfire rings of dexterity in the game. Totally useless (unless you want to double equip your merc with HFAs) but amusing that those old organs drop in greater numbers as well.
     
  11. Almurielle

    Almurielle IncGamers Member

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    With everyone facerolling T6 I liked the fact that you were so powerful that it was ok for anybody to come and leech, it was not even felt by the group when one or 2 (or 3?) players were not geared.
    It releaved the pressure of having to find an optimal group to be efficient. And it made sharing a rift clear, with characters in early gearing phase, easy and equally rewarding as with a specially good group.
    I don't say I never wanted a T10. I admit it was needed. But now, the temptation of kicking useless characters in public games, not to feel like we are loosing our farming time, will probably come back.

    I also fear it multiplies the difficulty options and divides by the same amount the number of public/clan games opened to you.
     

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