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To ES or not to ES?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by dOOmas, Sep 25, 2015.

  1. dOOmas

    dOOmas IncGamers Member

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    Hey, so in the last few days of pvp week i used my vita bliz sorc for pvps.
    She did fine considering the gear i have and the opponents i was against.

    Certain somebody is persuading me to try a bliz es sorc. I know es lg sorcs work great but a blizz sorc might be crippled because of the lack of skiller/ points in synergies.

    Btw my stash consists of vita based items, no [email protected] gcs.

    Im interested in your opinion how well an es bliz sorc might work.

    Ps. I want to know how ES work together with @res dr mdr pdr, do i still need to stack res to mitigate damage?
    Pss. Is it worth going all out damage and then just collecting a full prebuff gear? I dont think its allowed to use a full set to prebuff(not sure)


    Any and all tips or suggestions are welcome
    Thanks for your input.
     
  2. maxicek

    maxicek Moderator Single Player

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    I will let someone else answer the technical ES questions, I don't have much experience here.

    But to play against, it depends on the opponent. ES is strong against bone necros, but squishy against poison based characters. WW sins for example.....

    The other problem with ES is you have to swap gear around to buff it with Memory, something I hate doing. I had an ES Fire sorc but respecced her to vita.
     
  3. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    What is allowed as per rules are 2 items prebuff for sorc ES. Best you can hope is to get 9 ES memory stick and probably 3 lightning skills circlet to prebuff with, or amulet. So no collecting all prebuff items cause other players will wait too long when you prebuff at stash.

    mdr and pdr are best with ES. Those work before resistances and dr% respectively. What you need to aim for are at least 2 pdr to nulify mindblast damage (more than that is not exactly needed), and I don't know about mdr, but could be good to get some at least. Resistances... only poison matters pretty much, but without decent mdr, you will still take considerable damage from magic attacks.

    Advantage of ES sorc is survivability, but disadvantage is rather lowish damage which does cripple you. While vita sorc can 1 shot plenty of characters, ES sorc can't one shot almost anything, which means you will have to work more for your kills and hope ES will keep you alive.

    As an ultimate goal, I'd say you have to aim to get 1.07 Shako, 1.07 Arkaine's Valor and try somehow to persuade other guys to trade you beta CtA or farm it yourself. Get those, make huge life vita blizzard sorc and voila. But until then, what you need to do is plan both vita sorc and ES sorc to compare damage between those to decide what route to go for. I wouldn't go ES route if your damage would be like WAT then, but I would go for ES route if you will still have considerable damage to at least two or three shot opponents (non-stacking opponents. For that purpose, simply assume they have 150 cold resistance and 4k life at average).

    In my opinion, biggest advantage or any blizzard sorc is actually damage. If she can 1 kill plenty of characters, you can afford to play more offensively and go for a kill. The less damage you do, the more turtle way you have to play and rely on opponent to get to you instead. Survivability does give you more opportunities to do more blizzards naturally, so having all in damage + squishy sorc doesn't work well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  4. dOOmas

    dOOmas IncGamers Member

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    I could try trading for 07 items but i think they're pretty high in value and hard to come by.

    I usually have a few swaps for when i need more or less survivabilty.(not stacking).
    Seems like a bliz sorc could have a better damage/survivabilty combo or atleast easier to get.

    Ps. Saw a build somewhere where you only use 1 hardpoint into es and prebuff to 40 which is different.
     
  5. frozzzen

    frozzzen IncGamers Member

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    I will add couple things.
    First, you are aware that if someone decides to use stack to cover for cold master, you won't deal any damage to that char. It's not even bad mannered because you are relying on -enemy ress to deal damage. And if someone uses Ravenfrost on top of stacked ress (smiters come to my mind), your blizzard will deal ~170 damage total I think.
    That's nothing.
    You are consciously choosing class that can vary from extremely strong to useless.

    With that out of way, sorry for missing you on pvp week and I hope we will clash in future :)
    If you chose blizzard sorc mostly due to fact that she is cheap to make as first char, that's ok choice, but try to expand character pool soonish. If you are dedicated enough, run some LK to get gems/runes and use those to get Enigma, and whatever big game changing items you can (1.07 shako, beta CtA etc) and from there on it opens a lot of options for whatever characters you would like to build. We can try to help with advices, pvp gear giveaways etc.

    As for specific ES vs non ES, it depends.
    Baseline for ES sorc would be: Nightwing's, 2/10 amulet, Fathom, Blizzard Ormus robes, Spirit shield, Frosties, dual SoJ and Treks.
    Baseline for vita sorc would be Nightwing's/1.07 Shako, 2/10 amulet, Fathom, 1.07 Arkaine's, Spirit shield, Magefists, dual BKWB and Treks.

    Imo ES works better on budget, but vita sorc is better when properly geared. If you want her as *I have my first character for pvp so I can interact with these people* type of character, I suggest going for ES. If you seriously want to make her good pvp character with loads of investments etc, then go vita.
    That would be short answer.

    Couple questions for you, any preferred pvp class? In case that we can help you with some giveaway items. Can you by any chance host pvp games? What timezone are you from?
     
  6. dOOmas

    dOOmas IncGamers Member

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    Prefferes classes are bliz sorc(obvious), fire when im feeling bored of blizz, desynch smiter/hdin( charge instead of nigma unless i feel like using it),and a ww barb.

    These characters used to be my mostly used bnet pvp chars so im thinking of rebuilding my army.( had a windy but never played it that much to get good).

    I can host 24/7 anytime and my time zone is cet+1( basically it was 22.30 where i live(pvps started at 21.30 cet)).

    Im from europe lithuania and my internet connection is 100/100 mbps.
     
  7. Delsy

    Delsy IncGamers Member

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    Froz your reasoning about stacking baffles me. It's like saying fire is useless, because it can be completely absorbed. For that we use rules. There is already 1pt CM rule, but on it's own it is not enough. What there should be is a rule to cap the stack res, so the cold doesn't become useless. You and Grip are experienced players and good with numbers, so it would be nice if you came with one to limit stacking.
     
  8. frozzzen

    frozzzen IncGamers Member

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    Holy crap 100/100. Meanwhile I'm living on 2/0.25. This is cruel world we are living in. Hopefully we can try and test your hosting capabilities over next few weekends or so. This seems by far best host we had so far I think. Looking forward to it :)

    Delsy, I can see where it's coming from. Personally, I dislike -ress builds, some more than others. It's very unhealthy way to increase your damage. I understand that Blizzard sorcs are extreme since their whole way of dealing damage in game is by amping it enough to have comparable dmg to other kinds of sorcs. But if you want to use 5 x 5/5 facets on fire sorc (two orb, two circlet one armor) instead of 880 damage (for standard fire sorc) you will deal 2040 to unprepared character. And this hits people that have limited wealth much more than those that can afford good charms etc to stack -ress. LF zon with Griffon's and Thunderstroke can two shot BvC. FoH turns from autotarget 382 damage into 2761 damage monstrosity. Rabies damage goes from 2.5k to almost 11k. Need I go on?
    Non stacked blizzard sorc can deal 4760 damage. That's oneshot to most characters in game, and can be done while being on defensive.

    I understand that it gives opportunities for some builds to compete, but it's built on wrong foundation imo. -ress is very negative mechanic in pvp for me so I don't think there should be limit to stacking personally. Obviously that's just me. If some kind of consensus would be reached where you guys allow certain amount of maxress, then we roll with it sure.
     
  9. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Dealing with -res is very ugly in balancing aspect. Almost no matter what we come up with, it still won't be enough to not turn some -res builds into punching bags. Also, when there is stacking, there is also equipment sacrifice involved. There are very few builds who can stack without sacrificing something in return.

    -res is both most profitable and most risky playing style in the game. Most profitable because -25 res on 175 res opponent suddenly doubles your damage output. Most risky because such builds are turned into punching bags if opponent bothers to do that minor stack + sorb. There is also that nasty Lower Resist curse, which is rarely used, but is most imbalanced thing in the game IMO. Suddenly unless you have like 60 stack on resistances, that random fireball will turn you into the dust with single shot. Traps will hit like a trucks. Even Hurricane will become pretty strong. How to balance such things with ruleset, I don't know.

    We could think of something to limit the stacking... but it is too much trouble. So, paladins are not allowed to use Salvation anymore if with that they exceed X% stack? Should players count their resistances before joining any PvP game to not have too much? Too much trouble, I must say. 1 pt rule does make it easier to stack cold, but you still have to stack up to like 250 just to have 0 resistance against blizzard, aka you effectively reduced her damage output two times. Going up to 325 resistance aka having maxed cold res is hard to do with most builds, but it does turn sorc into just some stronger creep. We could potentially make a rule that stacking over 250 cold resistance is not allowed because around that value blizzard sorcs damage is halved (with 1 pt CM rule). Obviously stacking up to 325 is bad to a moral of sorc players.

    Then again, if you don't stack, you must deal with most annoying thing in the world - invisible 1 shot aoe spell. My chars have too much life to be one shoted, but still teleporting around and losing 90% life from something invisible is very bad for moral of non sorc players (and sorc alike if they tele in). Similar thing is with hammerfields, but those are less threatening because they have less mobility than sorc and you can generally tell where hammerdin is. Sorc can throw blizzard and tele 5 screens away before you arrive where she threw blizzard. It is incredibly hard to tell where sorc blizzards are. So sometimes stacking must be done just to be able to FFA a bit more normally instead of playing very cautiously to not be killed by invisible spell (for less experienced players - if you throw blizzard and opponent is not on your minimap, that blizzard is invisible to them, but is still doing damage normally. Same is with any other spell in the game. In your career you will eat plenty of invisible Bone Spirits, its unavoidable).

    We can do voting on cold stack, but it still won't save any poison necro who is also just a punching bag if you stack him over Lower Resist and Death's Web - res value. Similar is with Rabies druid as well (who does have some solution in beta Bramble). Fire druid, FoH paladins, Javazons and such have almost no hope to battle against stack and there is no help with that. FoH has conviction so he can manage somehow though and hammers (if mage).
     
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  10. Delsy

    Delsy IncGamers Member

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    Oh come on froz, those examples are ridiculous. It's like one day Grip was playing with Phoenix shield on Fire Druid, because what if people don't stack. 3 plain fire res SC's and that shield is useless. Everyone has plain res charms and everyone should be using their brains.

    Kira, Wizzy, plain res charms etc are cheap and the differences in items among players are already big so the wealth argument doesn't hold.

    The point I want to make is, that the mindset "my opponent is a retard who can't equip 3 plain res charms" is wrong and arguing with it is stupid.

    Stacking can be balanced the same as fire or other elements. It's all about calculation.
     
  11. nulio

    nulio IncGamers Member

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    I decided to talk with dOOmas to have an idea of the items he has for his PvP Blizzsorc, since I have several spare items just laying around.

    Considering his wealth I suggested him ES build, where the only hard item to get (if you don't want a plain one) is the amulet. He had said he changed gear around a lot for resists. IMO having a vita build that sacrifices damage to get res kills that a build a bit.

    I used ES Blizz sorc for some years and it was really fun. For me and opponents. One shot kill with vita blizzsorc is not fun in a FFA. Without having 1.07 arks and 1.10s beta cta she's also a glass cannon and it's not fun for the one playing her.

    With the spare mana/life GCs I have and spare mana/life SCs we can all send, plus frosties, 2x SoJ, some nice 2sorc 10fcr amulet and even having lower damage, the sorc's survivability will make her really fun to play with. Going in to the crowd to take 20%~50% life (depending on char) and regroup if it gets dangerous (the ES will make it possible to not die easily).

    Spirit + treks will make it easier to get the enough poison res when needed.

    Memory staff plus ES ormus' is enough to buff to level 40 ES.


    But anyway, if he gets Arkaine's plus Beta CtA (but previously he was against these OP items) vita sorc can be more fun (but he might need anyway some nice fr/lr/@ grand charms with life - to have more life and enough res). I should have these GCs also.
     
  12. dOOmas

    dOOmas IncGamers Member

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    I dont stacking rly unless its 1v1, because in ffas and tvts you cripple yourself beig defensive against a single element.
     
  13. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @Delsy
    That is a good point that players should actually plan to build their characters toward being adaptable to any situation, stack included. Problem is, at least I think, that some players still don't bother with that. They will rather get two shoted than to put 3 extra charms on their characters (or using Wisp for sorb). Some players even use Hoto without using Oak charges from it. But, all that is irrelevant for discussion, I'm just saying it as informative value. ^^

    Calculations are possible, but still not perfect. For example, if we do calculation about proper way to stack Web + Lower Res poison necro to not cripple him too much, that same calculation falls into water for poison necro not using Web, but Hoto. It simply depends too much on what gear opponent is using. We can do some balancing aspect with stacking though, at least for blizzard sorc case, to not be totally helpless to do any kind of damage.
     
  14. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    @dOOmas

    That connection of yours sounds incredibly OP. You should definitely try to host soon so we can see how good it is. Would be awesome to have someone else but Maxicek to host, so we can have more frequent PvP-ing instead of only during pvp weeks. I'm sure we can figure out to make you strong pvp characters. Believe me, playing on own host is 3 times as fun than having 100 ping on other host. Gogogogo.
     
  15. dOOmas

    dOOmas IncGamers Member

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    I'll try hosting and just see what kind of ping people get.
    212.117.6.72
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  16. Delsy

    Delsy IncGamers Member

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    I was thinking about it some more, did some calculations etc. I want to say, I was wrong. It is indeed too complicated to balance stacking for blizz sorc. My apologies, for I was too quick to jump to conclusions. But, wouldn't you be used to that already? :D
     
  17. dOOmas

    dOOmas IncGamers Member

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    If its 1v1 with preparations i'm sure every almost every character could be countered.

    I'll have to get a few more respec tokens to try out the ES build but i'm still sure vita is more effective.
     

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