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To carry infinity or not, that is the question

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by MageChick, Oct 4, 2006.

  1. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    To carry infinity or not, that is the question

    Should your sorc carry Infinity herself or delegate the task to her merc? There’s some pro’s and con’s of each, but lets explore the numbers a bit (you know I want to :soapbox: ).

    I’m going to look at damage from your sorc as well as survivability. We can compare damage and FCR rate to determine damage per second. The –enemy resistance varies, so we’ll have to look at damage applied to monsters of various resistances. Beyond that, the comparison will get kind of fuzzy. In the end you’ll have to make a decision based not only on damage, but on various elements of survivability, MF and most importantly play style.

    Of course making your merc carry the infinity will really limit what your merc can do for you, but I’ll leave the merc debate for some other time.

    Build
    I’m going to do this comparison for pure lightning sorcs, non-es type.

    20 Charged Bolt
    20 Nova
    20 Lightning
    20 Chain Lightning
    20 Lightning Mastery
    1 Thunderstorm
    1 Static
    1 Telekinesis
    1 Teleport
    1 Warmth
    105 points total, complete at lvl 95.

    Gear
    There are four different gear setups we’ll look at.

    1) Infinity build, high FCR
    Code:
    	        Skill	FCR	Res	FHR	MF			
    Infinity					30
    Griffon’s**          1	25			
    Viper Magi*          1	30	35		
    Magefists		20			
    Arachnids            1	20			
    War Trav’s*					50
    Mara’s**	     2	25		
    SOJ	             1				
    FCR/Res Ring 		10	15		
    Anni**	             1		15		
    Torch**	             3	 	15	 	 
    [B]Total:      	    10	105	105	0	80[/B]
    -77.5% enemy res*
    
    2) Infinity build, high resists
    Code:
    	        Skill	FCR	Res	FHR	MF			
    Infinity					30
    Griffons**          1	25			
    CoH	            2		65		25
    Magefists		20			
    Arachnids           1	20			
    War Trav’s*					50
    Mara’s**	    2	25		
    SOJ	            1				
    SOJ	            1				
    Anni**	            1		15		
    Torch**	            3	 	15	 	 
    [B]Total:             12	65	120	0	105[/B]
    -72.5% enemy res*
    3) Eschuta/Spirit/CoH
    Code:
    	        Skill	FCR	Res	FHR	MF			
    Eschuta             3	40			
    Spirit*	            2	35	***	55	
    Griffons**          1	25			
    CoH	            2		65		25
    Magefists		20			
    Arachnids           1	20			
    War Trav’s*					50
    Mara’s**	    2	25		
    SOJ	            1				
    SOJ	            1				
    Anni**	            1		15		
    Torch**	            3	 	15	 	 
    [B]Total:             17	140	120	55	75[/B]
    -27.5% enemy res*	
    4) Hoto/Spirit/Enigma
    Code:
    	        Skill	FCR	Res	FHR	MF			
    Hoto**	            3	40	35		
    Spirit*	            2	35	***	55	
    Griffons**          1	25			
    Enigma	            2				95
    Magefists		20			
    Arachnids           1	20			
    War Trav’s*					50
    Mara’s**	    2	25		
    SOJ	            1				
    SOJ	            1				
    Anni**	            1		15		
    Torch**	            3	 	15	 	 
    [B]Total:             17	140	90	55	145[/B]
    -22.5% enemy res*
    * = Perfect
    ** = Average
    *** = spirit has 35% res to cold, light and poison not listed
    All gear faceted where possible


    Calculations
    Here's the formula as I know it:
    [base skill damage] * [synergy mod] * [mastery mod + (+% skill damage)] = [total damage]
    Don't worry, I'n not going to drag anyone through the math this time, but I know someone wants too :thumbsup: If you want to see how I came up with these numbers, check out post #13 on this thread where I did similar math for the blizzballer/meteorb/CL&FO comparison.

    Calculation Table
    Code:
    	    LM     LM+ed%   L min   L max    L min*  L max*    L Avg
    Infin FCR   398    420.5     28     15943     29     16663     8346
    Infin Res   422    439.5     30     18892     31     19525     9778
    Eschuta	    482    514.5     33     27139     35     28654     14345
    Hoto	    482    494.5     33     27139     34     27722     13878
    
    LM = Original Lightning Mastery %
    LM + ed% = LM + % damage from equipment (eschuta, facets)
    L min | L max = skill calculator lightning damage
    L min* | L max* = damage with LM + ed% applied
    
    Damge Table
    Code:
    	        FPA	Dam/Sec	-Res	0% 	50% 	75% 	100% 	115% 
    Infin FCR	13	16051	157.5%	32101	32101	29292	14365	11958
    Infin Res	14	17461	152.5%	34922	34922	30993	14755	12135
    Eschuta         12	29885	107.5%	59769	47068	39597	11804	7322
    Hoto	        12	28912	102.5%	57824	44091	36863	9975	5638
    
    FPA = Frames Per Attack
    Dam/Sec = Average Damage per Second
    -Res = Total negative enemy resistance from gear
    xx% = damage per second applied to monster with stated resistance
    
    Conclusions:
    Initially I see that it’s probably not worth it to sacrifice skills and resists (CoH + SOJ) to get a higher fast cast rate (Viper Magi + FRC/Resist Ring). You do more damage and have higher resists using CoH. The down side is that your teleport speed will suffer, and that may affect your MF run time.

    Looking at the non-infinity carrying builds I also see that Eschuta/CoH is better than Hoto/ Enigma, at least for damage and resists. You will get more MF by going Hoto/Enigma, but I just don’t think it’s worth it.

    So that kinda brings it down to the Eschuta/Spirit vs. Infinity (the two middle rows in the above chart). These actually look close enough in terms of damage to make it a personal play style preference. Eschuta/Spirit will give you more damage in the non-immune monsters, but Infinity will give you more damage in the original immunes.

    When you already have –85% coming from conviction, plus –15-20% coming from griffons and a few extra –5%’s from any facets, the extra -45-55% by carrying infinity yourself doesn’t help all that much for non-immune monsters. In fact, for 0-50% resistant monsters its actually a waste as you can’t lower them more than –100%. But it does come in handy for the 100-115% resistant monsters. For the non-immune monsters not carrying infinity will get you about 30-75% more damage. But you’ll do about that same percent less damage when it comes to immunes.

    For me, I’d say the other benefits of Eschuta/Spirit will be what makes the difference for me. I like to teleport fast. But if you’re running placing where your merc needs to worry about IM, then carrying infinity yourself will help. Some people will also like the steady damage of carrying infinity vs. the huge range of damage by leaving your merc to carry it.

    I really thought there was going to be a bigger difference in the damage analysis. The merc comparison is closely tied in to this debate but is beyond the scope of this work. I just thought it would be good to get the numbers out there so we can debate this knowledgeably.
     
  2. rata

    rata IncGamers Member

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    My vote is to carry the infinity rather than putting it on the merc. Ummmm...i got some of the setup ur describing, and went thru some of the ideas u mentioned. i tossed the enigma for a coh and tossed the Eschuta into my stash for hoto for survivability ( i needed the hoto and coh resists ). i use a switch for a hand held infinity only when there are lite immunes (specifically glooms when doing a baal run or pvp). My merc has fort armour, andy's and insight cv to deal with the usual lite immunes ...
     
  3. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    I also like the option to simply have infinity on switch when needed and otherwise just keep with Eschutas/Spirit. This analysis shows to me that its more about playstyle than anything to do with how much damage you dish out.

    Before there was infinity lightning sorceresses with optiomal gear already did dish out alot of damage, and just as Conviction implies, you will only use this when you encounter lightning immunes.

    Nice analysis Magechick. Thanks once more for your effort. I will sticky this a bit. Waiting for some PvP input.
     
  4. killian27

    killian27 IncGamers Member

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    I don't think my field results match up with your calculations... but it might be the FPA.. if Infinity FCR sorc had 12 more fcr to meet the bp, I think she will doing a lot more damage. After playing both, I felt I was killing faster holding it... but I know that's just opinion really. I do like not having to rely on the merc to be alive though.. especially in chaos.
     
  5. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    How'd you hit 117% BP? I suppose I could swap mara's for a +2 FCR Amy (do those come in 12%+ FCR?) I'd be afraid if I added in some more FCR but lost another skill it wouldn't make it worth it. Suggestions welcome - I still have the spreadsheets so I can swap out numbers pretty easy.
     
  6. killian27

    killian27 IncGamers Member

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    10fcr amulet and 2 10fcr rings do it... or you need a craft with 15+. Crafts can be either 5-10fcr or 15-20fcr. I really don't think the skills will make that much difference. My sorc uses a 18fcr/20resall craft that has no skills at all.. until I can craft one that has sorc skills and 15+fcr (this is so she can wear soj and make the bp). She does fine.
     
  7. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    First of all, if this is PvP I strongly recommend Lightning/ES. Even if PvM ES is awesome. I'm sure you've seen the ES/non ES controversy around here, so if you believe in nonES then go for it.

    Secondly, carrying around Infinity in pub is just making yourself too fragile. Lightning's instable / already crazy damage make insane dealing damage not as effective. HoTo / Spirit with ES is about the most pub friendly (versatile) Lightning build of 1.1. I hardly need describe positive stats of hoto/spirit.

    Only sorc pvp build I see fit to carry around the huge stick is Nova.

    This is speaking strictly in pvp point of view, since meli wanted some pvp input. Then again, if its pvm why not just stick it on Waheed?
     
  8. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    Waheed on a stick?! Bloody or welldone? Poor merc! :prop:
     
  9. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    well, the discussion is open for both PvP and PvM. I'm just putting out the numbers (and a little analysis) its up to you to figure out what to do with it. I never PvP myself, so your comments are much needed. I think there's pros and cons to each set up no matter if its PvP or PvM.

    Can you further explain what you mean by "making yourself too fragile"? The loss of def (from spirit) and resists (from Hoto) make that much of a difference?

    I'm also not follwoing your comment about "make insane dealing damage not as effective". Not as effecitive as Hoto/Spirit? I would think that PvP where merc's aren't generally allowed would really limit your -enemy resistance.
     
  10. killian27

    killian27 IncGamers Member

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    Have you played one in PVP? Yes, she is a bit glass cannon-ish... but not even as much as some dex zons... in a pub game the only opponent that she won't be able to at least put up a good fight against is a charger... and that's because of desynch.. she's not the best in every pub, nor the worst in any... fun build, and she can one or two hit kill a LOT of builds.

    In pvp, infinity carrying sorc is gonna do way more damage than any other light sorc... way more. It takes a pally running maxed lightning resist and absorb gear to negate lightning... charged bolt will of course heal him.
     
  11. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    :cool: Waheed's my fav. I would never do such thing.

    but Pratham on my nec the other hand...
    Making yourself too fragile? aside from +skills, fhr/fcr/res/mana/dex are the useful bonuses you get from hoto/spirit. Crazy fcr might I add, which in addition would free up other slots for other bonuses. but now I'm thinking maybe Infinity might be better for pure lightning sorcs. hmm.

    Funnily enough, I have both a Lightning/ES and full dex bower.

    The sorc does 33k, 83% es, 1k life, 3k mana, 215~ res with anya.

    Zon does 7fpa, 7.3k kb pure physical, no psn whatsoever. About 500 life with high frw and eup titan / ss on switch. (I can wear hel'd ss with 0 in str)

    Comparing a build to such zon means absolutely nothing. She does pretty good in pub, but most annoying are sorc's TS. She's absolutely an ez pie to many builds, unless I fc ga's.

    Hmm maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Hoto / Spirit is absolutely essential for lightning/es, but for just lightning, I think Infinity would actually help. Your general goal is pretty much all out damage as a pure light, so if 117% is attained that would make a better pvp light sorc. I'll go through your numbers again.
     
  12. killian27

    killian27 IncGamers Member

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    Your sorc shows 33k on the char screen and has 117fcr? With 20pts in tk? Is she level 99?

    The point was your previous post implied that the build is too fragile to be used in PVP at all... which is wrong.

    I've made this both ways, all vita and all mana/es... es is much more durable and the damage difference is not vast... plus the chars that you could one-hit with a vita build, you can still one-hit with an es build.

    My current sorc is 1klife/3kmana/86fhr/117fcr/83es/stacked res without anya(when faded)/lcs shows 20K/Oh and 1hitpoint/.75mana es

    Sorry if I sound argumentative.. I'm wanting to compare notes really...
     
  13. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    lv 94. Its like 32 7xx. also 86 fhr, as yours. I have not maxed lightning synergies, and only 1 in ES. Yes, TK is maxed.

    That is exactly the point I implied, but I shifted my view towards pure lightning builds, and I'm getting second thoughts. Blame me if you will for my hasty mistake.
    So you agree with me Lightning/ES is superior to Lightning?

    May I suggest you making a non Infinity hoto/spirit one then? You will be surprised how much more flexible your gear choices become. Hoto/spirit has other beneficial mods like +mana as well. SoJ's, Frostburns, etc.
    Anya fading on a ES sorc? Your stats seem fine, except the 20k part. Is that your Lightning dmg? Or is that because you have tons of -% enmy res with infinity? I'm surprised you have 1k/3k life/mana, with infinity. Not using 9 skillers? You can't wear infinity / frostburn / sojs and get 117% at the same time.
    me too. :cool:
     
  14. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    good debate here, I'm taking notes

    Why Hoto instead of Eschuta? At first glance the resists on Hoto are nice, that probably does more for you than the little extra damage on Eschuta. But you can socket eschuta with a facet for more damage and the all important -enemy resistance. With CoH, Mara's, Spirit, Anni and Torch your resists should be pretty good. Maybe this is a PvM vs PvP thing though - no real reason to stack your resists in PvM.
     
  15. killian27

    killian27 IncGamers Member

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    And 117fcr? What gear do you use to reach 32K and 117fcr?

    Definatley, for pvm or pvp... though I prefer more base vita for a pure pvm build just because of mana-burn boss packs.

    I have one for pvm (non-es), and of course her gear is much more flexible, but the damage is not near as devastating in pvp as the infinity carrying sorc.

    Yes, I've been playing with a fade pre-buff for use against other light sorcs, but mostly I was testing it for the 15damage reduction against chargers... If you have solid advise against a charger, let me know... if i get a gm one that says "go" I stand a chance, but against a decent charger that desynchs to me in a pub game (meaning i dont see him till im hit), I seldom can get out of hit lock from his attacks to tele away.

    20K is my damage as listed on the LCS... not taking into consideration the -153% light resist from gear and convict. 7 skillers + 12fhr/55mana + 56mana/39life + torch + anni + 2 x 5fhr/mana sc + rest life/mana sc. I can boost my damage with two more skillers, but I played with both and prefer the extra life/mana/fhr... still going back and forth though until I make up my mind for certain.

    I don't wear frostburns... gear:

    Griffons
    Infinity Scythe
    Upped Um'd 35res Vipermagi
    Magefist
    Arach belt
    eth sandstorm treks
    18fcr/19Ares/life/mana (definatley need to upgrade this to 2sorc/15+fcr... my previous amulet was 2sorc/10fcr/21Ares... but I prefer being able to wear a soj and forgo the 2 skills)
    fcr ring/18str/80mana/some resist
    soj

    2x12fhr light gc's
    5xplain and lifers (2mid lifers)
    1x12fhr/55mana
    1x 56mana/39-40life cant remember for sure
    2x 5fhr/mana sc's
    rest life/mana sc's
    torch 19/18
    anni 20/12

    And to be most accurate, I have not broken 3k mana... it's like 2935 or somewhere around there and my life is 1060 I believe... those numbers are close if its that significant I can edit after I go online and look.


    edit: Hoto VS Eschuta's ... probably debatable.. I don't think hoto is hands down better but I do think its better... pvm or pvp.

    +3 To All Skills
    +40% Faster Cast Rate
    +75% Damage To Demons
    +100 To Attack Rating Against Demons
    Adds 3-14 Cold Damage, 3 sec. Duration (Normal)
    7% Mana Stolen Per Hit
    +10 To Dexterity
    Replenish Life +20
    Increase Maximum Mana 15%
    All Resistances +30-40 (varies)
    Level 4 Oak Sage (25 Charges)
    Level 14 Raven (60 Charges)
    +50% Damage To Undead

    Mana and resists... the added damage from eschuta's won't be as much as you would think... it wasn't as much as I thought it would be when I compared the two on the LCS... either way, I'd rather have the mana es build or not.
     
  16. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    did the LCS even show a difference in damage? I can't remember if it showed non skill %ed? The numbers aren't too different (see my first post). Its only about 2k across all monster resist %'s. This is almost irrelivant when your damage is 20 times that much, but at high resistant levels (over 100%) that's about a 25% difference. This is almost all due to the facet, not the ed%.
     
  17. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    Griffons, Spider, HoTo, Spirit nets me 120% fcr.
    I understand. I expected so, since mana pots are more effective in PvM.

    Desynch chargers are extreme hard, especially for non ES'ers. With 117% fcr, best you can do is just tele around with lightnings here and there.
    Ahh... maybe if you wore spirit then you wouldn't need 4x fhr charms. :azn: I got a fhr skiller, rest is filled by Spirit / Imp.
    Frostburns give very nice mana. Maybe if you wore hoto spirit you wouldn't need the fcr from magefists. :wink3:
    I won't mention on the extra soj you could be wearing.

    Why the mana/fhr gcs though? Why not just 4 fhr skillers then?
    Neither are mine accurate. Its around 3060 mana and 988 life.

    I've once thought a P Eschuta's was much better. But I saw the light couple months ago. Glad you see it too.
     
  18. killian27

    killian27 IncGamers Member

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    Oh. I thought you meant your build was infinity sorc also thats why I didnt understand the 32k... but why is your damage so low? edit: nvm you already said that you had 20 in tk.

    I can see clearly that you like hoto/spirit lol... but even though your screen says 32k and my screen says 20k... I do a LOT more pvp damage... probably double if the opponent's resist aren't stacked too high and they don't absorb. If you are east ladder I'd love to get in game and take shots at my barb to test... but from your previous post's iirc you are not.

    I don't have more 12fhr/skillers because they are 12Hr each and I just havn't wanted to buy any more of them.. also the 55mana after Bo is quite nice. I'm thinking once ladder resets it will be easier to get all high life gc's and an extra 12fhr... could be wrong on that though.
     
  19. Brave_turtle

    Brave_turtle IncGamers Member

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    Guys,

    Are u saying Hoto is better than Perfect light eschuta in PVM??? And, how can u reach 32k light dmg with 20 in tk??

    I've tried with char editor with all perfect item and I couldnt reach it.


    Very interesting stuff so far!
     
  20. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    I'm still waiting to hear some more justification on that one too. For PvM you shouldn't need the resists (assuming you get a good mara's, anni, and torch) and you can safely drop magefists for frostburns and still hit the 117% FCR break point. I would think that would be enough mana for PvM - at least for straight lightning (I can see ES builds wanting more).
     

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