To be considered a crime, must it involve a victim?

Dirty_Zulu

Diabloii.Net Member
To be considered a crime, must it involve a victim?

We punish rapists because 1) there's a victim and 2) there's the intent. What if we take the victim out of the equation? Can you punish someone for a victimless crime?

Let's imagine far off in the future where we can buy robots as our sevants. There would have humanlike features and "highly adaptive" AI. You can buy them as you would buy a car at the dealer. You can also order then to any shape, size and type you want.

Suppose someone orders a robot to resemble a young girl programmed to mimic a 12 year old baby sitter. One day he acts out his desires and rapes the robot. Is it a crime?
 

kernelpops

Diabloii.Net Member
If a tree falls in an forest with no one to hear it , does it make a sound?



How do you come up with these ideas?


and a crime does not need a victim, just ask Martha Stewart
 

Garbad_the_Weak

Diabloii.Net Member
Dirty_Zulu said:
Suppose someone orders a robot to resemble a young girl programmed to mimic a 12 year old baby sitter. One day he acts out his desires and rapes the robot. Is it a crime?
If he thought it was a human, wouldn't it be attempted rape? :lol:

Garbad
 

Peregrine

Diabloii.Net Member
Depends on whether that AI is true intelligence. Is it as capable as a living mind? Have they been granted the same rights as humans?

If they aren't equal, then no crime. It's an inanimate object, and doesn't have any rights.
 

giantpinkbunnyhead

Diabloii.Net Member
I think crimes MUST involve a victim. Otherwise, in a crime with no victim, no one would be wronged. If no one is wronged, can it be called a crime?

(I use "no one" to mean any entity capable of being wronged, be it person, animal, corporation, whatever)
 

SilentMagik

Diabloii.Net Member
Dirty_Zulu said:
We punish rapists because 1) there's a victim and 2) there's the intent. What if we take the victim out of the equation? Can you punish someone for a victimless crime?
Now I'm no expert but cant you get convicted of just planning to say rob a bank? In that case there is no actual victim but its still against the law.

Dirty_Zulu said:
Suppose someone orders a robot to resemble a young girl programmed to mimic a 12 year old baby sitter. One day he acts out his desires and rapes the robot. Is it a crime?
hmm. I dont think having sexual relations with inanimate objects can be considered rape. Be it a robot, toaster, mercedes benz, whatever. It may be moraly questionable but its not a crime.
 
The idea behind a crime is that a victim is implied, though perhaps not always present. That victim can be a single person, a group of people, a whole corporation, or objects belonging to other people.

The laws made against criminals decree that someone or something, somewhere, somehow, is injured in some way by whatever it is you are doing that is illegal.

So, DC...jaywalking is a crime because when there are cars present, it creates a possiblility of danger to yourself and others. If the law were written to allow the jaywalker to decide when cars were either absent or far enough away to cause no danger, there would be all sorts of misinterpretations going on.

Smoking a joint? The law decides it is bad for you and people you may meet up with who have to interact with you. It is a mind-altering substance that may affect your reflexes and thought patterns, which can have a deleterious effect on others. Before you blow your top, that is the law's interpretation (and may be mine as well, but that is moot and not my point).

Is walking drunk down the street considered a crime? I think only if you are haranguing or harassing people, and then the crime is drunk and disorderly. You are bothering and offending people. Why shouldn't that be considered a crime if a minority is affecting a majority?
 

cotton

Diabloii.Net Member
kernelpops said:
and a crime does not need a victim, just ask Martha Stewart
The prosecution would tell you that the victims in the Martha Stewart case were the shareholders over witch she gained an unfair advantage. The only completely victimless crimes I can think of are those of "attempt," in which case the perpetrator "attempts" to victimize someone but does not complete his task. And no, it is not a crime to plan to rob a bank; the crime does not occur until you take an action in furtherance of that crime. The line is fine, but the action is required.

As for drugs, jaywalking, prostitution, gambling, base jumping from the empire state building, and other "victimless crimes," the argument is that these actions create a dangerous environment for the actor or for others, so everyone, including the actor, is a victim because they are subjected to the dangerous environment. I'm not saying I believe this is true in all instances, but it is the rationale for criminalizing the behaviour. And I don't think raping a robot qualifies. If it does, there are lots of criminals out there with Candi the inflatable girlfriend.
 

cotton

Diabloii.Net Member
IDupedInMyPants said:
The American people. Drugs are terrorism and you should be ashamed.
I thought drugs were eggs. No, wait, that was my brain. Ok, so drugs are the skillet? The butter? The stove?

Ah, hell, drugs can be terrorism. I r confused.
 

Dirty_Zulu

Diabloii.Net Member
SilentMagik said:
hmm. I dont think having sexual relations with inanimate objects can be considered rape. Be it a robot, toaster, mercedes benz, whatever. It may be moraly questionable but its not a crime.
What about someone what had sex with his pet goat? It's his property and he can prove that it's not harming the animal. In fact, what if he proves the goat enjoys it?

I use the robot analogy cuz it's the closest thing to a human. Let's say we can program the robot to cry when being raped. Could we punish the owner for acting as a sexual predator? Notice I mentioned 12 yr old female robot. That also brings into the question of pedophilia and child porn...
 

Technetium

Diabloii.Net Member
Dirty_Zulu said:
I use the robot analogy cuz it's the closest thing to a human. Let's say we can program the robot to cry when being raped. Could we punish the owner for acting as a sexual predator? Notice I mentioned 12 yr old female robot. That also brings into the question of pedophilia and child porn...
No, because as your question asks, there's no victim.

Laws are not, and never should be, based on concepts like "grossness." They are based on violations of rights. So the guy wants to bang a 12-year-old. As long as he does not, he's fine, just as there is no law against making sexually explicit drawings (from your head, not real life) of children. I think the child porn thing is going to get much more ackward in the near future, because 3D animation is pretty near sufficient to generate photorealistic images. 3D rendered images of children which do not exist in reality would be legal, and it is going to make it very difficult for law enforcement to pick out which ones are real.
 

Merick

Diabloii.Net Member
Every action inpacts other people, so every crime affects someone, and affects someone negatively.

If you kill yourself, someone has to pay for whoever handles your body, and whatever agencies have to be informed are manned by workers who are getting paid.

If you smoke marijuana, you destroy a tiny part of the ozone layer (didn't think I was going there, did ya?), which will make the earth heat up a bit more, which will make us use a bit more freon to stay cool, which will further hurt the environment, partially because it has to be transported, which requires gasoline, which hurts the enivornment.
 

Anakha1

Banned
Attempted crimes are still crimes. Even though no one was hurt. Crimes are still crimes if they're considered to harm society or put others at risk. Hence, no there does not need to be a victim.
 

SilentMagik

Diabloii.Net Member
Dirty_Zulu said:
What about someone what had sex with his pet goat? It's his property and he can prove that it's not harming the animal. In fact, what if he proves the goat enjoys it?
:p Well lets for arguments sake say that both enjoy it so no harm done to either them. However animals have, unlike robots, basic rights. There are laws to protect animals from cruelty and abuse and I'm sure they would apply no matter what he could prove (how one would prove such a thing is beyond me). I at least would punish him severly for not keeping it a better secret and thus making us all sick to our stomachs.
 

cotton

Diabloii.Net Member
Anakha1 said:
Attempted crimes are still crimes. Even though no one was hurt. Crimes are still crimes if they're considered to harm society or put others at risk. Hence, no there does not need to be a victim.
I'm not sure I follow this logic. If you harm society or put others at risk, there are victims--the society that is harmed and the others that are risked. You don't have to be a corpse or quadrapalegic to be a victim.
 

Anakha1

Banned
cotton said:
I'm not sure I follow this logic. If you harm society or put others at risk, there are victims--the society that is harmed and the others that are risked. You don't have to be a corpse or quadrapalegic to be a victim.
My point is that according to the law there are always victims. If it isn't someone in specific it's society in general. Those crimes that are truly victimless should not be crimes at all, IMO.

However harm does not equal risk. You can put others at risk and still not harm them. Those are also crimes without victims. Attempted murder can in some circumstances do absolutely no harm to the intended target but it's still a crime.
 

rplusplus

Diabloii.Net Member
There are also IIRC Crimes against nature (such as the aforementioned goat) and crimes against the state (DC's doobie on the Mall).

I think the robot would go toward a crime against the state as it would surely fall under the sodomy laws.

Of course I am quite sure when people do start to have personal robots there will be specific laws that you cannot have sex with a Minor Robot. You can only have sex with robots built for that purpose. And things such as that. Laws evolve with society. At least Mans Laws do. Morality and Gods laws are a different topic.

R++
 
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