Thoughts on the European Union constitution?

Amra

Diabloii.Net Member
Thoughts on the European Union constitution?

I am not completly up to speed on this but it seems like it's passage faces an uphill battle now. Or maybe it's dead already.

How do the OTF folks in Europe feel about this?
 

nrabbit

Diabloii.Net Member
can you put some info about the european union constitution? something really brief
 

Darnoc

Diabloii.Net Member
It isnt dead, but since two of the founding nations didn't vote the constitution in, it will have to be amended in some way. The Dutch are worried about losing their *ahem* freedoms under a united states-like union and are still upset about the devaluing of their currency when they were forced to accept the euro.

The French vote was closer, but still decidedly no. Some of the voiced concerns by the french were that the government that would be in control of the union would be too powerful and there werent enough ways to check it's decisions and power under this constitution. Many people in France simply voted no because the EU union is something that Chirac wanted and they don't like him or want him in power- the french pm has already resigned; kind of a sign that chirac is on his way out unless he pulls a rabbit out of his hat.

While the EU union constitution is very similar to the US constitution, it obviously would control more and needs to be drafted to give the individual countries more say in what happens in their homelands if it is to be accepted. Also, many people feel that this consolidation is happening too fast with the currency change and constitution and all. Of course there will always be people resistant to change. Basically, european countries want the international pull they would get united, but don't want to really unite in the way the United states are; they kinda wanna try the articles of confederation way first. Wont we ever learn from our mistakes? :)
 

kryo

Diabloii.Net Member
Darnoc said:
While the EU union constitution is very similar to the US constitution
Yeah, a kind of similar that's not. The EUC ranges from the low 300's to well over 400 pages in length (depending on language). The original USC is four pages long, and it only takes a few more pages to cover the ammendments since then.

If they ever plan to pass that thing, they really need to thin it down big-time. With a gargantuan bureacratic cleveland steamer like that, it's no surprise that almost anyone can find a reason in there to vote against it.
 

Machina

Diabloii.Net Member
In its present form I believe it's dead, as Darnoc said, with two founding members voting no it's as good as dead as it stands, added to that the UK would have voted no anyway (if only it were the UK who just voted and not France, then Tony will have just stepped down instead of the French PM, maybe...). The only way forward if they want to keep the constitution is to drastically change it.

If it came to it, I believe the UK would sooner leave Europe than be part of a 'super state', and in the short term they most certainly wont be joining the single currency, unless Tony wishes to go out with a bang.

The problem with the constitution is that whenever it's debated the content is never mentioned in the UK. We basically debate whether we want to be part of a European state, or merely part of a European trading forum, and that's the same for almost any European issue.

Personally I would have voted no, but then again, that's because I want the UK to retain its own unwritten constitution, and not be dictated but unelected representatives in Brussels.
 

axeil

Diabloii.Net Member
We'll eventually see a United States of Europe. It's been inexorably heading towards that since the end of WWII.
 

Machina

Diabloii.Net Member
axeil said:
We'll eventually see a United States of Europe. It's been inexorably heading towards that since the end of WWII.
How many nations would be part of a European superstate though, I can't see the UK being the only country to pull out if it got that far, and then how powerful would a European superstate actually be in reality?

If Europe fears being left behind by the rest of the modern world then a superstate really isn't the solution to that problem.
 

Johnny

Banned
Machina said:
If Europe fears being left behind by the rest of the modern world then a superstate really isn't the solution to that problem.
Europe doesnt have an opinion. Europe is alot of countries who all have different opinions but who are together lead by a handfull of people who all have one thing in common. They like to fill thier pockets with money and so a union is formed.
 

axeil

Diabloii.Net Member
Machina said:
How many nations would be part of a European superstate though, I can't see the UK being the only country to pull out if it got that far, and then how powerful would a European superstate actually be in reality?

If Europe fears being left behind by the rest of the modern world then a superstate really isn't the solution to that problem.
Good question. I only know a fair deal about this since this year's AP European History Document Based Question was to describe the progress of European Unification from the close of WWII to the Collapse of Communism.

Essentially what the documents outlined were the following countries getting involved: UK, France, W. Germany (with reservations from the UK and France for obvious reasons), Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Austria?.

But today I would venture a guess that the majority of Eastern Europe (minus Russia) plus the Balkan States would be in the Union. To explain Russia's exclusion it would require a lot of time that I unfortunetly don't have right now.
 

Machina

Diabloii.Net Member
Johnny said:
Europe doesnt have an opinion. Europe is alot of countries who all have different opinions but who are together lead by a handfull of people who all have one thing in common. They like to fill thier pockets with money and so a union is formed.
I agree, that's why I don't think a superstate can form from Europe, let alone function if one were to form.
 

Garbad_the_Weak

Diabloii.Net Member
Learn from our mistake - don't do it. Just keep trade open, a common currency, and military alliances as needed. Keep your courts and laws local. No matter what checks you put in, when you centralize you outsource authority, and sooner or later your rights will get reduced.

Garbad

EDIT: And I can't see how you think euro was different than the US when it was formed. The only difference I can see was a common language.
 

axeil

Diabloii.Net Member
Garbad_the_Weak said:
Learn from our mistake - don't do it. Just keep trade open, a common currency, and military alliances as needed. Keep your courts and laws local. No matter what checks you put in, when you centralize you outsource authority, and sooner or later your rights will get reduced.

Garbad

EDIT: And I can't see how you think euro was different than the US when it was formed. The only difference I can see was a common language.
Well the USA did have to have a massive alliance with all 12 colonial "states" to defeat the British, thus laying the groundwork for a unification. Additionally, the heritage of the majority of the colonists was the same (British), again making life easier.

Europe has a greater number of problems to overcome such as: animosity over past wars, most notably the World Wars; language barriers, cultural barriers, etc.
 

PublicEnemy

Diabloii.Net Member
United we stand,divided we fall
Even though the european countries have different languages,customs and cultures,they still have one religion (christianity) and a common past.They had better remember the past wars before saying "no".
 

SirKnightmare

Diabloii.Net Member
The EU needs to really unite to compete with the US economically. Divided they don't have a shot. Since I'm an American things seem to be going my way.
 

Freemason

Banned
I find the failure of the EU to be highly amusing. The French voted against it with fear of the "Polish Plumber" and the Dutch said no for fear of losing the drugs and hookers.

Two countries voting NO and the Euro dropped like a rock. Those poor fools that shorted the Euro are going to have to eat the loss. Shouldn't have turned their back on the US dollar. :lol:
 

jimmyboy

Diabloii.Net Member
Freemason said:
I find the failure of the EU to be highly amusing. The French voted against it with fear of the "Polish Plumber" and the Dutch said no for fear of losing the drugs and hookers.

Two countries voting NO and the Euro dropped like a rock. Those poor fools that shorted the Euro are going to have to eat the loss. Shouldn't have turned their back on the US dollar. :lol:
Funny how the French and Germans co-authored the EU Constitusion.

The EU is toast. And Europe is going to get squeeze by the Americans and the Chinese.
 

Freemason

Banned
jimmyboy said:
Funny how the French and Germans co-authored the EU Constitusion.
Anybody paying attention could see it coming. The French can't pass us the opportunity to stab somebody in the back. Not even themselves.

The EU is toast. And Europe is going to get squeeze by the Americans and the Chinese.
And ain't it a shame? The EU was created to go after the US economically. And just like the Soviets, they failed in the face of rampant capitalism. Evil Conservative Warmongering Capitalism.
 

Anakha1

Banned
Freemason said:
Anybody paying attention could see it coming. The French can't pass us the opportunity to stab somebody in the back. Not even themselves.
*sigh* :rolleyes:

Yes, I forgot. Smeg thinks that a nation making a decision with its inalienable right to sovereignty is a stab in the back because they've disagreed with the U.S. in the past. How rational.
 

DaviddeJong

Diabloii.Net Member
Freemason said:
I find the failure of the EU to be highly amusing. The French voted against it with fear of the "Polish Plumber" and the Dutch said no for fear of losing the drugs and hookers.

Two countries voting NO and the Euro dropped like a rock. Those poor fools that shorted the Euro are going to have to eat the loss. Shouldn't have turned their back on the US dollar. :lol:
First of all, we didn't fear losing our drugs and hookers. (Although it would be a shame if we did!) The no-voters (I was in favour of the constitution) wanted to voice their opposition to our current government and fear a Turkish membership and immigration (which is a solid argument IMO, just not to oppose the constitution).

Secondly, I don't think the Euro will be down for a long time. Our economy (the EU's not the dutch) is steady, the US budget deficit is really big (isn't it?) and Europe has a trade surplus.

If we'll ever see a European superstate I'm sure GB won't "pull" it. It's not like they have enormous power in the EU and they're not the biggest economy either.

David.
 
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