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Thoughts on Hacking

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by IAmTacoSalad, Sep 5, 2006.

  1. IAmTacoSalad

    IAmTacoSalad IncGamers Member

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    Thoughts on Hacking

    I don't understand what tools these "hackers" are using or their methods, and I don't understand how they are getting caught. By editing an item in hex you can change values with nobody the wiser; you can download a program to do the work of editing for you for you.

    I myself could whip up items and taint the well by donating or trading them. I'm just not quite sure what I am supposed to be getting out of doing this. If I can modify items to be traded I have no need to trade. I suppose those who commit this practice are longing some sort of recognition, but why does one want to impress anonymous people over the internet? There is no gain other then a sense of gratification that anyone with morals would know to be hollow and false.

    I wonder if by making this post and acknowledging hacks people will be suspicious of me. The entire trading system is based on moraliy. Whoever gets caught next will become another pariah but you still have no way of knowing how many of your items are legitimate. If someone confesses that they hacked once why is everything they have ever done tainted?

    If someone claims an item is legitimate does it really need to be deleted out of suspicion? Why delete characters over one sub-par duped item when many of that character's better items could just as easily be illegitimate? Why not just delete that item and move on with life? If you want a taint free character you can’t trade so why bother trying to justify your legitimacy if you have?
     
  2. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot IncGamers Member

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    As for why people hack & then trade, I think it's just our human desire for 'social' interaction and acceptance...

    Personally, I'm a strong-willed, stubborn person who like to do things my own way. That's probably why I don't enjoy multi-player games as much as SP ones. However, I do enjoy the interactive aspect of showing off some of the cool stuff I've found, and also swapping it for some of the cool stuff that other people have found.

    I used to trade a lot (for a month or two I was probably the most active SPF trader, once upon a time), and then I stopped for ~6-9 months (roughly, I didn't count the days :rolleyes:). I just started trading again this past weekend.

    I've noticed that I tend to enjoy D2 more when I'm involved in trading. It's nice to find a second (or 5th) green sacred armor and have a 'use' for it. I already have an IK barb, so one more doesn't really do anything for me. However, I'm still waiting for my first Windforce, so to swap them and make a cool amazon that kicks butt, and then hear someone else tell a story about some of the fun things they did with the armour I found... that's an awesome thing.

    Or perhaps that's my own personality's perversions... :wink3:


    Edit: Fortunately, like most/all of the people around here, I try to respect other people's wishes and opinions as well. In the case of hacking and then trading, it is obviously disrespectful to other people, since any person that spends more than a month here gets to see the following intro thread: 'this place is awesome - I used to play BNet, but I like your legit-ness and helpfulness.'

    ... if you're willing to hack and then trade it to someone who already stated they don't want hacks, then IMO you're being very disrespectful.
     
  3. neumein

    neumein IncGamers Member

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    I agree with poops on this one.

    I posted something similar in the Chains Of Strength ban discussion thread. But I'll recycle it a bit. I get all excited when I get something from the giveaway thread, but I also enjoy giving stuff away. I like the feeling you get when you give a new player an IK maul, Blinkbat's form, I don't know, common stuff, and all of a sudden that new player follows you around and thinks you're the best.

    Maybe people who hack, and then trade are just addicted to the good feeling of helping someone out. I know for a fact that I give my friends too much good stuff that I find, because I like the feeling I get.

    just my $0.02 :p
     
  4. Quizzart

    Quizzart IncGamers Member

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    While I realize that I am relatively new here I have been lurking for a few months, what I do not get is if a person finds, hacks, edits, or whatever an item why does that "taint" anything? Is a duped/hacked Ber rune any different than a found Ber rune? If I found some uber item and traded it to you why is that OK and if I hacked/duped the same item and gave it to you it would not be OK, they are the same thing. I really don't understand this rabid ideology about items and "taint."

    With a couple of the recent bannings I have followed I have seen people delete high level chars, stashes, items and even entirely starting over over these "tainted" trades. This I would never do because I don't get it. If I worked for months to pat a char and he was in his 80's and I traded someone for a sweet charm and then found out he was a duper/hacker why would I delete that char or even that item? If he duped/hacked and said he found it I would keep it and if he found it I would keep it but because he admits (or gets caught) at duping I am now penalized months of work and items down the drain for what?

    Basically all I am saying is that if you aren't all self-found (which I am working towards so I won't be trading or asking for items--I get a rush from seeing an item I need flop to the ground) I can almost guarantee you are using a duped/hacked item or two, don't kid yourselves. Maybe that is a bit pessimistic and harsh (especially from a new guy) but I really don't understand the difference. Someone please try and explain to me why this matters, maybe I will see a different angle on this issue.

    Note: I am not endorsing duping/hacking/tainting just saying, found or duped the item is the same and the benefit to you in SP is the same the only person tainted is the duper/hacker not you or your stuff. You should also never hack/dupe and then trade as they have said they don't want to be tainted.
     
  5. waflob

    waflob IncGamers Member

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    I think poops nailed it. It really is a matter of respect.

    2 examples that may illustrate the point :

    A friend of yours doesn't eat pork, for religious reasons. Would you give them pork and expect them to eat it ? Let's be realistic. 2000 years ago, pork was not the safe meat it is now. They should move with the times and see that pork is now as safe to eat as any other meat. Just eat it aleady !!

    Another friend of yours like whisky, a particular brand of single malt. Would you re-bottle a different brand in his favourite brand's bottle and give it to him ? In all likelihood, he'll enjoy the one you bought just as much.

    I think you see that in both cases, the other person won't really suffer through the ficticious examples, but you respect their wishes on the matter. If somebody wants to have clean items, even in a game, then we should respect that and not give them duped / hacked items, just because there is no perceived harm.

    DelBoy
     
  6. smilts

    smilts IncGamers Member

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    I would say that the differance between a real ber rune and a duped one would be about 3 months. Thats how long it took me to find my first high rune after I started playing. I think it is the fact that people spend so much time and eye sight working towards having clean high lvl chars. All the sudden you find that one person has made all of your work for not. Then after finding out that you have been playing with a fake if you kept the item or even the char that got to that lvl by using the item you are in affect contributing to that other persons cheating.
     
  7. Drystan

    Drystan IncGamers Member

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    So, if you gave me meat, any meat, you'd expect me to eat it? I'm a vegetarian, and in truth, I can no longer eat meat. I had to once (pork or bacon or something) and I was almost throwing up because of it. Yes, meat is safe, healthy, and is high in proteins etc etc etc. But the point is choice. If you do something knowing they are against it, you don't respect them or their choices.
    Same thing with pork. It's their choice and who (but themselves) has the right to make them eat pork?

    As to the alcohol incident, it is not usually against the persons morals or beliefs. To me, a gift of one alcohol or another isn't important. If they gave me beer, knowing I didn't drink beer, (Purposely) then to me that is either a stupid joke or disrespectful. To me, I'd just call it a joke and move on.
    As to the meat being purposeful, for me that would be disrespectful.

    @Quizzart
    The main idea is that we would prefer to finish this properly. We can find an item and dupe it for all of our characters, but why? We finish, but not legitly.

    Also, with trading. "A" trades with "B". B deletes his item, while A keeps his. B is now playing with an item that exists twice, and to most SP'ers, we don't want that. It doesn't affect us directly, but we'd prefer to know that no advantage was gained. Same thing with a hacked/modded/illegit item.

    If you know you've used a hacked item, then every item that char finds, every level it gains, everyone that joins his game is tainted. That is due to them getting even a minute advantage from that hacked item. We don't care how big or small that advantage is, but that it's there.
    We want to finish it by blizzards rules, not by using a drop mod to get everything we need.
     
  8. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot IncGamers Member

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    I'll draw a real-life analogy to hopefully explain it somewhat - it's flawed, but I think it'll be somewhat clear the point I'm trying to make (D2 analogies in parenthesis):


    So you're 65+ years old, have worked all of your life to finally retire (i.e. Patriarch). You don't have a lot (untwinked), but if you keep your expenses (players settings) down you'll get by without having to greet people at Walmart (run NM Meph 5000 times). Your out-of-town uncle (trade partner) passes away and leaves you a bunch of money, so your money worries are much less (yay, you can MF in Hell WSK).

    Some time after receiving your inheritance, you learn that the money your uncle gave you was 'earned' by scamming (hacking) elderly people - such as yourself - out of their savings. The scams were illegal, but the uncle was never caught in time.

    Do you still want the money? What happens if you take it and the gov't decides to freeze all of your assets later (i.e. you're banned for trading tainted items)? What if you get dragged to court because some of the scammed people want to sue you (flamewars)?

    Obviously, you're stuck with a tough decision. Personally, I'd like to believe that I'd give the money to charity (... the squid :wink3:).


    wow, that turned out more legible than I thought :wink2:.
     
  9. Cattleya

    Cattleya IncGamers Member

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    I've got a much simpler example of why it's important to care where the item came from. We have a shining example of what happens when people don't care if and item is duped, as long as they didn't do it themselves. Go check out the rune economy on b.net. Now, remember how much easier it is to dupe in SP. It wouldn't take long before SP trading became completely pointless, and for many people, trading itself is fun. I wouldn't want to see that ruined.

    Edit: I don't live in some dreamworld where all hackers who trade/MP are caught. What I think is important is that we care when someone hacks and trades/MPs, we stay vigilent for such people, and we take action when they are found.
     
  10. Samsung

    Samsung Banned

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    That made me laugh. Very good.
     
  11. Jude

    Jude IncGamers Member

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    I just read the other, closed, thread and wanted to make a comment as an analogy. This might seem a bit melodramatic, but I think it applies:

    If you want to hurt or kill yourself (or get banned), do it in such a way that doesn't hurt others. It's not fair to drive your car headfirst into another car or kill your family first before suiciding...

    Jude
     
  12. TurinT

    TurinT IncGamers Member

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    I'm looking for some clarification on what the policy is when a character or stash comes in contact with a duped item. Is it mostly personal opinion for what to do or... what? I added what I am feeling is the policy from SPF (or questions regarding the policy) and my opinion. Two cases:

    1) I trade for item X. One of my characters using item X makes say... 40 levels and finds items Y and Z. Item X is now found to be duped.

    SPF policy: Delete the character plus items X, Y and Z.
    IMO: Probably agree with assumed SPF policy. OR, delete item X, quarantine character and items Y and Z so that they never interact with other characters or SPF related activities. If the character reached a high level it might be a good testing ground for play strategy, item combo's etc... If the character is no further use it would be deleted.

    2) Same as above, except the character is already level 99 done with personal gear (you traded to play around with a new toy).

    SPF policy: Naturally item X is deleted. Can this character MP? Trade with the self found items? Should be deleted along with stash? Is my work forever SPF banned because I unwillingly touched a dupe? Really want some clarification on this one.
    IMO: This character is my work, and no-one takes that away from me. Not getting deleted. If the character and stash has to be quarantined I'd probably be a little sore about it, but so be it.
     
  13. water_moon

    water_moon IncGamers Member

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    @turin: The view on tainted items has softened latly, mostly b/c our very good mods have kept a dailoge with the cheaters to find out just how deep it ran. So we know how long they've been tainted, and we don't have to assume it was from the very first post. (though some will, just to cut the doubt and uncertainty)

    Shoot when I first started here the only items for trade were those un ID'd or pgems.

    We've had several very philosphical threads a little over a year ago on taint, what it was, how it speads, why it's SO bad. And the best discription I heard about it was that it was like a disease. In the case you discribied above, I personally wouldn't trade or MP with you unless you did a full restart.

    Let me tell you why. Taint is like Ebola. It speads very easily, it's very painful, it's messy, and it distroys whatever it comes in contact with. The dread, fear and doubt of wondering if you've been exposed, is as much a part of it's evil. This is why very many folks don't trade. In your example, Item X is tainted, and ANY item Character 99 found is tainted, as is all the XP he got from using the taint. So lets say that he dropped some pgems off in the stash, and Character 80 used them to re-roll charms. Now he's tainted. Unless you can be absoultly certain that Character 80 never touched any item found while Charater 99 was using item X (or Y or Z for that matter), he's a gonner. And if you MP with him, the folks you play with are too.

    Now some folks keep a seperate stash for every single charater they make and don't let them mix. If that's how you play, then you can quarentine 99 off. But if you move any items between those stashes and don't keep records (face it, few folks do) you can't be possitive 80 isn't sick. And I personally wouldn't want to risk it.

    Now is that fanatical? Yes, but in the face of the alternative (ie. B.net style dupes and hacks, or worse yet, Open B.net) fanatiscism is safer. That "feel good feeling" some one can get from trading/giving away taint is lessened if they see the witch burning that takes place when some one does. The fear of discovery and repeasial is often a great deteriant to breaking the law. Hence the need for laws and penalties in the first place. And the malicious ones usually sucumebed to other malicious acts before they ever got going.
     
  14. TurinT

    TurinT IncGamers Member

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    w_m : Thanks for the info, that's what I wanted to know. I think it just bums me out that a great deal of time and effort can be destroyed by something I have no real control over. One of the reasons I came to the SPF was to avoid this exact case of dupes etc. I simply will stay away from trades until I've accomplished what I want to accomplish here. Not like I have anything trade worthy yet anyhows...
     
  15. DeathMaster

    DeathMaster IncGamers Member

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    Good one mate.:thumbsup:

    However, I have a better "real life story" here.

    Dupe = copy money
    Hack = print money yourself
    scam = scam

    Let's see someone has perfected money copy/fake skills, and can copy/print bank notes as good as the real one.

    Would anyone feel "no big deal" or "it is as good as the real thing, just let it go" and go ahead spend the fake money? If I bought some goodies with fake money, I don't believe I really own those goodies at all.

    The issue is really simple, fake is fake, no matter how "real" it may look like.
     
  16. Skinny

    Skinny Banned

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    If I earned the money by my own hard work (i.e. my boss paid my salary with them) and I knew I wouldn't be punished for using them, I would spend them no prob
     
  17. Drystan

    Drystan IncGamers Member

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    That's due to the alternate situation though. If you knew you had them, what could you do? Your boss wouldn't swap it, so you'd have to get rid of it or use it.
    Get rid of it leads to no money = starve/beg/work another job.
     
  18. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous IncGamers Member

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    Ok, how about I relate my own back ground on this subject.

    I used to Hack. If I wanted an item for a character of mine, I'd hack it up. My characters and pretty much every item I had was hacked one way or another. Rare's attributes where enhanced, such as leech amounts where uped, combined etc etc. I was pretty good at it and I worked out the in's and outs of the various editors available back then and how to get the best results out of then.

    Then one day, LoD was released. I waited for my copy to come in and I already had the latest patch and updated editors ready to go. I played hacked LoD for a couple of hours and then It all dawned on me. I was playing this game to hack. I'd spent hours fine tuning and experiementing creating hacked items and then spent 10 minutes in game actually playing with them. I had forgotten how to actually play the game thru it's entirety and with the new expansion disc ready to explore, I decided on that day, to never hack again and instead rediscover the enjoyment of starting a level 1 character and questing to defeat Baal in hell mode. I deleted every character, item mule, editor, everything and installed the game from scratch and started my very first legit character.

    The answer to your question is our own enjoyment and satisfaction. If we attach some kind of worth to the items and characters then that enhances our enjoyment of this game. I have a level 94 schaeferdin that i'm very proud off. I know full well I could recreate him and his items in 15 minutes with an editor. But I prefer the real deal because of the memories and fun I have had playing him up to that level. His schaefers hammer was a gift to me from Hakai no tenshi, creator of ATMA. No editor is going to hack in that setimental aspect of an item. It might just be a data string on my hard drive somewhere but to me, it is a item with some sort of value. it is the same with finding items. The thrill of seeing a green of gold elite unique item or high end rune on the ground is something that no editor can ever duplicate.

    As I found out, you either play this game to hack, or your play this game (or any game for that matter) for enjoyment. Hacking to me is like enabling "god mode" in the original doom game, or any invulnerability mode in any game. And that to me translates to "take the fun out of this game" mode. I quickly get bored of playing a game if I know there is no challenge from a god mode or using some uber hacked item that I don't deserve to possess, that I didn't earn or trade legitly for.
     

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