This made me all butthurt...
- Thread starter AniMe
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NASE
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
it's just to give an idea. don't forget, there are effects that work the other way. Mf forinstance should increase the chance to find a TM. So that you may need much more monsters in the pit then just about 450
tetracycloide
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
Those rates would not fit any objective metric of 'going strong.' When the difference between the cumulative chance to aquire a super rare item for a player than plays 10 hours a day and one that plays 20 mins a day is on the millionths or tens of millionths of a percent the drop system is flawed.
nEgativezEro
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
I remember in the early days nobody had Tal's armor. Back in the early days when Tal's Mask was a decent find. ****, I remember when Windforce would sell for over $1000 on eBay. :doh:
In 1.09, and even somewhat early in 1.10 those items didn't come as easily as they do now. I think after 7/8 years players didn't want to grind it out like they used to. The story had no allure after so long, but the items were still sought by players so they became easier to attain. We also didn't have Hammerdin bots leveling everyone in a days time. No bots finding all those high level items with no effort.
The other problem is that it's easy to look at things with jaded eyes. We've all played D2 for so long that most of us know by heart what green and gold items are what. No need to even pick them up unless they're high level stuff. It's different when you start from scratch. Even with the new ladder seasons in D2 it has a different feel early on. I'd get excited when I'd find a Bing Sz Wang and my Barb was using junk swords. When D3 comes out everything will be fresh and new. All those low and mid level uniques will actually mean something again.
Keep in mind that in actuality I'm agreeing with your statements about drop rates. I do agree that it should be tough to find those high level uniques. It should take a long time to get your character fully equipped with great gear. My main hope is that unlike D2, by the time we finally get all the best gear we actually have something to DO with it. In D2 by the time you were fully decked out you'd already beated hell a long while back. There was no more questing to do. Sure in the later patch they added the Ubers Quest to throw some difficulty at us, but I'm hoping D3 will offer more for players once they've fulled decked out their characters.
I think what you seem to be omitting is things were a lot different in the old days. Now, yeah Tal's Armor is worth nothing. But drop rates have increased, there are more places to find those high level items, and with all the duped runes/rune words the economy of the game is completely different and players all can fairly easily get the optimal gear to kill.Nimbostratus; I guess I'll have to disagree againIf the very rarest of items is within the grasp of a casual player though "taking a while" there will be no competition in items at all. For a casual player, Tal Rasha's Guardianship may be a good find but many of us don't bother picking it up anymore or simply trade it away for a few Pul runes.
The points I try to make is that there should be incredibly rare items for
1) sake of competition
2) to cater to those players who play a bit more, to provide content to them as well
3) keep excitement
4) provide diversity and individuality
The best will be highly sought after yes. And the best should NEVER be as easy to obtain as a Harlequin Crest, a Stormshield or a nearly perfect Mara's.
I remember in the early days nobody had Tal's armor. Back in the early days when Tal's Mask was a decent find. ****, I remember when Windforce would sell for over $1000 on eBay. :doh:
In 1.09, and even somewhat early in 1.10 those items didn't come as easily as they do now. I think after 7/8 years players didn't want to grind it out like they used to. The story had no allure after so long, but the items were still sought by players so they became easier to attain. We also didn't have Hammerdin bots leveling everyone in a days time. No bots finding all those high level items with no effort.
The other problem is that it's easy to look at things with jaded eyes. We've all played D2 for so long that most of us know by heart what green and gold items are what. No need to even pick them up unless they're high level stuff. It's different when you start from scratch. Even with the new ladder seasons in D2 it has a different feel early on. I'd get excited when I'd find a Bing Sz Wang and my Barb was using junk swords. When D3 comes out everything will be fresh and new. All those low and mid level uniques will actually mean something again.
Keep in mind that in actuality I'm agreeing with your statements about drop rates. I do agree that it should be tough to find those high level uniques. It should take a long time to get your character fully equipped with great gear. My main hope is that unlike D2, by the time we finally get all the best gear we actually have something to DO with it. In D2 by the time you were fully decked out you'd already beated hell a long while back. There was no more questing to do. Sure in the later patch they added the Ubers Quest to throw some difficulty at us, but I'm hoping D3 will offer more for players once they've fulled decked out their characters.
James Knight
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
My personal opinion is that some items really are much too rare, and that needs to be changed. I'm also... not sure what to call it... "casual core". I'll go with that. That is, I don't get to play all the time, but when I do, it's hardcore.
That said, I agree given the Diablo system of item randomization, rarity must be applied to items. However, single player and multiplayer should have their own distinct drop rates. I used to play SP a lot before going MP, and I can say it would have definitely helped to have better drops. Even when using enhanced-drop mods, I've never seen a single Zod.
Now, multiplayer is where most of this discussion is centered. I see why the HC crowd is clamoring for similar rarity, but that's ridiculous. The player wants to find the item. Trading for it is a bonus. Even the most hardcore of hardcore have never found many of the possible item drops. I think making a cap of 1:1,000,000 for the hardest item to find is not unreasonable given that 5M players on at peak times isn't unrealistic. Keep stuff rare, but not astronomically rare. Just ease things a bit, because sometimes it's more rewarding to actually get the item than never finding it.
EDIT: I'll also add that decreasing rarity would give more value to low- and mid-level items. What's the use of something when you only find it end-game, beyond twinking, which isn't as fun as finding it when you would need it as you level?
My personal opinion is that some items really are much too rare, and that needs to be changed. I'm also... not sure what to call it... "casual core". I'll go with that. That is, I don't get to play all the time, but when I do, it's hardcore.
That said, I agree given the Diablo system of item randomization, rarity must be applied to items. However, single player and multiplayer should have their own distinct drop rates. I used to play SP a lot before going MP, and I can say it would have definitely helped to have better drops. Even when using enhanced-drop mods, I've never seen a single Zod.
Now, multiplayer is where most of this discussion is centered. I see why the HC crowd is clamoring for similar rarity, but that's ridiculous. The player wants to find the item. Trading for it is a bonus. Even the most hardcore of hardcore have never found many of the possible item drops. I think making a cap of 1:1,000,000 for the hardest item to find is not unreasonable given that 5M players on at peak times isn't unrealistic. Keep stuff rare, but not astronomically rare. Just ease things a bit, because sometimes it's more rewarding to actually get the item than never finding it.
EDIT: I'll also add that decreasing rarity would give more value to low- and mid-level items. What's the use of something when you only find it end-game, beyond twinking, which isn't as fun as finding it when you would need it as you level?
Re: This made me all butthurt...
You've already got wow, which caters to that 90% lowest common denominator. Do we really need another wow?
sinned
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
It's in the interest of every company to cater to the potentially larger group. Money.
tetracycloide
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
first having two games that cater to 90% of their player bases is not a mutually exclusive condition. they can both do this at the same time.
second, lowest common denominator is not highly skilled players on a tight schedual. it's crappy players with time to burn. wow has consistantly only given super high end loot (read: the highest item level for current content) to players that can clear the hardest PvE content (read: hard modes for the hardest raid) or are the best PvPers (read: 2000+ brackets for arenas). the fact that casual players are afforded easier access to content and gear after it is no longer current i.e. after new content and gear have been released is keeps the game interesting.
this argument is specious for two reasons:
first having two games that cater to 90% of their player bases is not a mutually exclusive condition. they can both do this at the same time.
second, lowest common denominator is not highly skilled players on a tight schedual. it's crappy players with time to burn. wow has consistantly only given super high end loot (read: the highest item level for current content) to players that can clear the hardest PvE content (read: hard modes for the hardest raid) or are the best PvPers (read: 2000+ brackets for arenas). the fact that casual players are afforded easier access to content and gear after it is no longer current i.e. after new content and gear have been released is keeps the game interesting.
Re: This made me all butthurt...
I just had to create an account here and comment on this because I’ve noticed that most of you are missing the point. It turned out longer than I expected, and I probably repeated some stuff that was already said but I don’t feel like reading 10 pages of comments.
It’s not about catering to “casual†or “hardcore†fans. Simply put the better and deeper the game is, the more people will get hooked, and the more addicted gamers there will be, as well as casual gamers. Blizzard does not approach the project thinking “how can we cater to both casual and non-casual gamersâ€, they approach the game with the idea “how can we get the most people hooked?†This is why Diablo 2, despite having incredibly hard to find items (I’ve never managed to find a windforce or grandfather sword without the use of a bot), was still the most addictive game of its time.
One of the things that made d2 so addictive was the never-ending quest for better items. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having items as rare as zod. Why is it that just because an item exists, it has to have a reasonable chance of being found? What’s wrong with having incredibly rare items that practically never drop, but if it does, you’re rich? I say, the more astronomically rare items, the better, just as long as these items are not completely integral to advancement in the game.
The only reason why astronomical rarity is an issue with runes is the fact that after 1.10, runewords became completely integral to the game for anyone who was not a noob.
I don’t recall rune rarity being a problem pre-1.10, because you didn’t NEED runewords to play the game like you do today. The problem is not rarity but the horrible 1.10 patch that didn’t take into account that there are virtually no alternatives for runewords in certain cases.
Another problem I’ve noticed in these threads is that some of you seem have this absurd notion that having very rare items makes the game inaccessible. I don’t think you guys can even say that with a straight face, because Diablo 2 was probably the most accessible game ever made. And that is why it was so popular. ANYONE could pick it up and start killing monsters and leveling. The difference is that those who really got hooked would not be satisfied with crappy items. But does that mean that they are entitled to have a decent chance to find all items? You tell me why, because I see no reason.
Let’s say there’s a unique weapon in d3 with very, very good stats. Not necessarily completely overpowered, but definitely more powerful than any other dagger or weapon used for a certain build or class. Assuming there is no duping in d3, and assuming there would only be a very small handful of these weapons in circulation at any given time, how could this in any way ruin the gaming experience for ANYONE? What kind of twisted logic is it to say “hey that item is so good therefore it should not be so rare!†Having very rare high-end items actually improves the gaming experience and the game economy. Since the item would be so rare, gamers know that they have no chance of finding it, so they collect gold or items (or whatever the d3 currency will be) so that they can accumulate enough wealth to maybe buy one of these high-end items. So not only do these super-rare items give a player the incentive to play, but they give you a reason to collect lower-end items to slowly accumulate wealth. This is a HUGE part of the Diablo experience. If every item had a conceivable chance to be found, there would be no drive to collect other items and accumulate in-game wealth. And if the incredibly rare item is very powerful, only a few elite gamers would have them, and so if you can’t kill them in pvp, duel against the other 5 million people who don’t have that item that overpowers you.
And lastly, I know someone mentioned this, but it’s not about the chance of FINDING an item, because you can always TRADE for items. It seems like many people here are conveniently forgetting this fact. Apart from single-player, trading is a huge aspect of Diablo. If every item had a reasonable chance to be found, the trading community would be incredibly boring. And for those of you pressing for higher drop probabilities because of single player… well… I don’t think that drop rates should be lowered just because of the single player community and this is why (and keep in mind at one time I exclusively played SP so I know where you’re coming from):
First of all, I would assume that there would be plenty of good items that you can beat the game without ultra high-end items. Increasing the drop rates for everyone just so single-player players can have a better shot at finding godly items just because they want them is unfair to everyone. Also, if they were to have separate drop probabilities for single-player and multiplayer (single-player having better chance to find certain items than the battle.net players), that would also be unfair because it would make the battle.net player’s undying quest to find an ultra-rare item seem kind of pointless because we could just go to single player and have a much better chance of finding it there.
I can understand that in d2, it’s unfair to single-player because high runes are so integral to the game and are impossible to find. But as I said, as long as an item is not so integral to the game like runewords are in d2, there is nothing wrong with having astronomical drop rates.
I just had to create an account here and comment on this because I’ve noticed that most of you are missing the point. It turned out longer than I expected, and I probably repeated some stuff that was already said but I don’t feel like reading 10 pages of comments.
It’s not about catering to “casual†or “hardcore†fans. Simply put the better and deeper the game is, the more people will get hooked, and the more addicted gamers there will be, as well as casual gamers. Blizzard does not approach the project thinking “how can we cater to both casual and non-casual gamersâ€, they approach the game with the idea “how can we get the most people hooked?†This is why Diablo 2, despite having incredibly hard to find items (I’ve never managed to find a windforce or grandfather sword without the use of a bot), was still the most addictive game of its time.
One of the things that made d2 so addictive was the never-ending quest for better items. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having items as rare as zod. Why is it that just because an item exists, it has to have a reasonable chance of being found? What’s wrong with having incredibly rare items that practically never drop, but if it does, you’re rich? I say, the more astronomically rare items, the better, just as long as these items are not completely integral to advancement in the game.
The only reason why astronomical rarity is an issue with runes is the fact that after 1.10, runewords became completely integral to the game for anyone who was not a noob.
I don’t recall rune rarity being a problem pre-1.10, because you didn’t NEED runewords to play the game like you do today. The problem is not rarity but the horrible 1.10 patch that didn’t take into account that there are virtually no alternatives for runewords in certain cases.
Another problem I’ve noticed in these threads is that some of you seem have this absurd notion that having very rare items makes the game inaccessible. I don’t think you guys can even say that with a straight face, because Diablo 2 was probably the most accessible game ever made. And that is why it was so popular. ANYONE could pick it up and start killing monsters and leveling. The difference is that those who really got hooked would not be satisfied with crappy items. But does that mean that they are entitled to have a decent chance to find all items? You tell me why, because I see no reason.
Let’s say there’s a unique weapon in d3 with very, very good stats. Not necessarily completely overpowered, but definitely more powerful than any other dagger or weapon used for a certain build or class. Assuming there is no duping in d3, and assuming there would only be a very small handful of these weapons in circulation at any given time, how could this in any way ruin the gaming experience for ANYONE? What kind of twisted logic is it to say “hey that item is so good therefore it should not be so rare!†Having very rare high-end items actually improves the gaming experience and the game economy. Since the item would be so rare, gamers know that they have no chance of finding it, so they collect gold or items (or whatever the d3 currency will be) so that they can accumulate enough wealth to maybe buy one of these high-end items. So not only do these super-rare items give a player the incentive to play, but they give you a reason to collect lower-end items to slowly accumulate wealth. This is a HUGE part of the Diablo experience. If every item had a conceivable chance to be found, there would be no drive to collect other items and accumulate in-game wealth. And if the incredibly rare item is very powerful, only a few elite gamers would have them, and so if you can’t kill them in pvp, duel against the other 5 million people who don’t have that item that overpowers you.
And lastly, I know someone mentioned this, but it’s not about the chance of FINDING an item, because you can always TRADE for items. It seems like many people here are conveniently forgetting this fact. Apart from single-player, trading is a huge aspect of Diablo. If every item had a reasonable chance to be found, the trading community would be incredibly boring. And for those of you pressing for higher drop probabilities because of single player… well… I don’t think that drop rates should be lowered just because of the single player community and this is why (and keep in mind at one time I exclusively played SP so I know where you’re coming from):
First of all, I would assume that there would be plenty of good items that you can beat the game without ultra high-end items. Increasing the drop rates for everyone just so single-player players can have a better shot at finding godly items just because they want them is unfair to everyone. Also, if they were to have separate drop probabilities for single-player and multiplayer (single-player having better chance to find certain items than the battle.net players), that would also be unfair because it would make the battle.net player’s undying quest to find an ultra-rare item seem kind of pointless because we could just go to single player and have a much better chance of finding it there.
I can understand that in d2, it’s unfair to single-player because high runes are so integral to the game and are impossible to find. But as I said, as long as an item is not so integral to the game like runewords are in d2, there is nothing wrong with having astronomical drop rates.
Nimbostratus
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
That's sort of what I was getting at, windforce. It's not so much that they're just rare, but that they've become such a huge part of the game. It's the standard that people form that makes the game seem inaccessible- yeah, you can beat the game using practically no gear on a pure passive amazon, but when the standard is a smiter using Grief, Enigma, etc., anything less feels grossly inadequate.
However, one thing- What makes people NOT entitled to a decent chance of finding any item?
Perhaps instead of making the best items nigh impossible to find and completely godlike compared to normally found gear, how about...
-Any item has at least a semi-realistic chance of being found
-The best items are stronger than normal, but not to a massive degree
-The best items have lots of variables, so finding a perfect one is nigh-impossible.
That's sort of what I was getting at, windforce. It's not so much that they're just rare, but that they've become such a huge part of the game. It's the standard that people form that makes the game seem inaccessible- yeah, you can beat the game using practically no gear on a pure passive amazon, but when the standard is a smiter using Grief, Enigma, etc., anything less feels grossly inadequate.
However, one thing- What makes people NOT entitled to a decent chance of finding any item?
Perhaps instead of making the best items nigh impossible to find and completely godlike compared to normally found gear, how about...
-Any item has at least a semi-realistic chance of being found
-The best items are stronger than normal, but not to a massive degree
-The best items have lots of variables, so finding a perfect one is nigh-impossible.
Krugar
Banned
Re: This made me all butthurt...
I fail to see how exactly different odds for SP and MP is unfair, windforce...
SP lacks a market. There's no other way of getting equipment other than searching for it ourselves. In fact, D2 introduced some features to minimize the gap (like /players setting and static maps). These did help considerably. But the "/players" setting had -- probably unforeseen -- consequences to the game that did damage it somehow.
In any case the point stands there was a realization SPers would suffer from D2 drop rates if nothing was done about it. My guess is that the game system didn't allow for differentiated drop rates between SP and MP (one just needs to take a look at the tables and realize there's no column for SP/MP). Had the game system allowed this and probably the developers would have gone that route.
There's nothing unfair in that. On the contrary, the attempt is to minimize the huge gap between SP and MP over the lack of a market.
I fail to see how exactly different odds for SP and MP is unfair, windforce...
SP lacks a market. There's no other way of getting equipment other than searching for it ourselves. In fact, D2 introduced some features to minimize the gap (like /players setting and static maps). These did help considerably. But the "/players" setting had -- probably unforeseen -- consequences to the game that did damage it somehow.
In any case the point stands there was a realization SPers would suffer from D2 drop rates if nothing was done about it. My guess is that the game system didn't allow for differentiated drop rates between SP and MP (one just needs to take a look at the tables and realize there's no column for SP/MP). Had the game system allowed this and probably the developers would have gone that route.
There's nothing unfair in that. On the contrary, the attempt is to minimize the huge gap between SP and MP over the lack of a market.
Re: This made me all butthurt...
Good question - it's the same reason I'm not entitled to a million dollars just because I want it. Nobody is entitled to any items actually, and thats one of the main principles that video games are based on. If entitlement to all game-content existed, there would be no such concept as the "secret level" or "achievments". It's up to blizzard to decide how accessible certain content is. The only thing we are entitled to as players is the product in the box. If we are unsatisfied with the content that blizzard provided, we return the game or stop buying Blizzard products. The most entertaining aspect of diablo games (for me at least) is the long journey to get that godly weapon that would make my character godly. The fact that these high-end items are so hard to get is due to the principle that no players are entitled to easily obtain any item they want. If everyone were entitled at a "decent" chance to find any item, the game would be rather pointless I would think.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you here as well. You're suggesting that all items would be easy to find and that there would be no godly items. This eliminates the whole journey to acquire the best items. And If the best items are easy to find, but have lot's of variables, then it wouldn't make much of a difference if the stats were perfect, or near perfect because in the end the item still wouldn't be much more powerful than other items. So in this case, the only items that would be incredibly valuable would be the perfect eth treks of the world... an item that's worth a huge amount just because the stats are perfect, even though the item itself is just a pair of treks... sounds rather boring to me.
Re: This made me all butthurt...
When Blizzard made d2, they wanted to have a game which lots of cool, rare items that were difficult to find without interacting with other players. This is the game that they wanted to make. In fact, the game you see on b.net is the real game, and SP is just diablo on the surface. The idea is that SP players should be able to beat the game and have fun, but if you want access to all those cool items, you have to play on battle.net. This is what blizzard wanted, because the larger the online community, the more interesting the game is for the majority of players, and that attracts more people to the game. The cool items are there to attract people to playing online.
So what I'm proposing is that many people are looking at it the wrong way... it's not that SP is unfair, it's that SP is D2 on the surface, and the rare items are bonus for playing online with other people. Also, lot's of the cool rare uniques are designed for PvP which does not exist on SP at all. So by asking that the drop rates be raised for the sake of the SP players, it really is contradictory to what diablo is all about. Those items are rare because they create a whole community of trading and interaction, and give people reason to play online. This is what the game is.
When Blizzard made d2, they wanted to have a game which lots of cool, rare items that were difficult to find without interacting with other players. This is the game that they wanted to make. In fact, the game you see on b.net is the real game, and SP is just diablo on the surface. The idea is that SP players should be able to beat the game and have fun, but if you want access to all those cool items, you have to play on battle.net. This is what blizzard wanted, because the larger the online community, the more interesting the game is for the majority of players, and that attracts more people to the game. The cool items are there to attract people to playing online.
So what I'm proposing is that many people are looking at it the wrong way... it's not that SP is unfair, it's that SP is D2 on the surface, and the rare items are bonus for playing online with other people. Also, lot's of the cool rare uniques are designed for PvP which does not exist on SP at all. So by asking that the drop rates be raised for the sake of the SP players, it really is contradictory to what diablo is all about. Those items are rare because they create a whole community of trading and interaction, and give people reason to play online. This is what the game is.
Knight_Wolf
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
Also like Nimbostratus suggested .. if rare items have multiple versions nobody will get the perfect or best version easily ... actually it will be possible to have multiple best versions each fitting a class or a build better than the other .. which makes for a healthier item game .. and also how is that making rare items powerful than other items .. it doesn't make sense .. the variables will be within limits to insure all versions of that rare item are still above a certain threshold of quality.
And then the whole godly items and journey to acquire the best items thing is actually given to much criedts and too glorified .. and what after you find the best items !!!! .. is that it .. that's the only thing you are playing the game for .. so i understand people who play like that will quit as soon as they collect the best items so they are afraid to collect it quickly .... so they want the Devs to keep the best items unattainable so they keep playing in hope that they find them one day ... how is that fun or even playing a game .. it sounds more like a chore or more like Sisyphus punishment ... it totally destroys the end game .. in MMOs it is ok to play like that cause the end game has lots of things to do and focuses on hi-level raids with large groups of people and such and that'ts why people seek the best items to use them there .. but putting too much focus on items in a game like Diablo that has no consistent world or other end game activities kills the end game and degenerates it into endless item pinata killing loops (i.e Baal/Boss runs).
Ask yourself .. shouldn't be there something beyond getting the best items .. something has to be there in order to use the so called best items for .. or it's like having all the money in the world and not having anything to do with it.
That's why
-Rare items should be reasonably obtainable and have variations.
-Rare items should be better than normal but not drastically so.
-Item drop lists need to be randomized even for bosses .. static lists are the gateway for endless loops of boss runs.
-End game needs more things and varied activities that can be done besides item finding (and there needs to something to use those items for).. besides running in an endless loops looking for some item that might ever drop in your life time.
I have to disagree with you on this .. what's wrong with people these days .. why aren't there any middle grounds any more ... how is making some rare items which were impossible to find more obtainable equal to making finding all items easy ... that's is just not right ... we aren't talking about D2 here ... i'm pretty sure that Blizz is smart enough to modify things so that the drop lists are less static and that boss aren't the stupid item pinatas they are in D2 .. if those two things are fixed then rare items drop rates will have to be modified accordingly to fit the new game .. and to be a rationally accessible content .. not some hidden Easter egg that nobody will find (i.e meaningless)
Also like Nimbostratus suggested .. if rare items have multiple versions nobody will get the perfect or best version easily ... actually it will be possible to have multiple best versions each fitting a class or a build better than the other .. which makes for a healthier item game .. and also how is that making rare items powerful than other items .. it doesn't make sense .. the variables will be within limits to insure all versions of that rare item are still above a certain threshold of quality.
And then the whole godly items and journey to acquire the best items thing is actually given to much criedts and too glorified .. and what after you find the best items !!!! .. is that it .. that's the only thing you are playing the game for .. so i understand people who play like that will quit as soon as they collect the best items so they are afraid to collect it quickly .... so they want the Devs to keep the best items unattainable so they keep playing in hope that they find them one day ... how is that fun or even playing a game .. it sounds more like a chore or more like Sisyphus punishment ... it totally destroys the end game .. in MMOs it is ok to play like that cause the end game has lots of things to do and focuses on hi-level raids with large groups of people and such and that'ts why people seek the best items to use them there .. but putting too much focus on items in a game like Diablo that has no consistent world or other end game activities kills the end game and degenerates it into endless item pinata killing loops (i.e Baal/Boss runs).
Ask yourself .. shouldn't be there something beyond getting the best items .. something has to be there in order to use the so called best items for .. or it's like having all the money in the world and not having anything to do with it.
That's why
-Rare items should be reasonably obtainable and have variations.
-Rare items should be better than normal but not drastically so.
-Item drop lists need to be randomized even for bosses .. static lists are the gateway for endless loops of boss runs.
-End game needs more things and varied activities that can be done besides item finding (and there needs to something to use those items for).. besides running in an endless loops looking for some item that might ever drop in your life time.
But i will have to agree with you on this ... D3 dev team already stated that they want to encourage D3 being a co-op online game (without neglecting the SP) ... so keeping the drop rates in SP normal will encourage people to log online, team up with a couple of friends and go around killing stuff and collecting items (even more than D2 since we have individual drops .. the more players the more the items gain within a game) ... and then we have the trade aspect as well ... so it is all right even for loners who play online.
Re: This made me all butthurt...
I just think normal items should go further and the magic affixes toned down. No more than 100% enhanced damage or defense.
Basically you would have a hard time finding truly good items, yes. But would you need the best items to play the game? No.
Currently, if you go into hell with stuff you've bought from Larzuk, chances are you are going down more than not. I think this difference between poor man's and rich man's was smaller in diablo 1, where the ED % were much smaller but there were also no exceptional or elite versions of weapons.
More Diablo 1 in style and gameplay! In fact, why have monsters drop armors anyway, that's plain stupid. Let's craft them at Larzuk, and sell Akara the demon brains for cash..
I just think normal items should go further and the magic affixes toned down. No more than 100% enhanced damage or defense.
Basically you would have a hard time finding truly good items, yes. But would you need the best items to play the game? No.
Currently, if you go into hell with stuff you've bought from Larzuk, chances are you are going down more than not. I think this difference between poor man's and rich man's was smaller in diablo 1, where the ED % were much smaller but there were also no exceptional or elite versions of weapons.
More Diablo 1 in style and gameplay! In fact, why have monsters drop armors anyway, that's plain stupid. Let's craft them at Larzuk, and sell Akara the demon brains for cash..
Krugar
Banned
Re: This made me all butthurt...
If there is a need for changes to be made to accommodate SPers, it will be made available only in SP mode. It will have no effect on b.net. I'm not aware of any SPer that asks otherwise.
So again I completely fail to see how this is unfair to MPers.
Hmm... no one asked it, that I am aware of.
If there is a need for changes to be made to accommodate SPers, it will be made available only in SP mode. It will have no effect on b.net. I'm not aware of any SPer that asks otherwise.
So again I completely fail to see how this is unfair to MPers.
Re: This made me all butthurt...
I see it as unfair for this reason: items are made rare to encourage online play and a trading community. If these items can be easily obtained simply by playing SP, it decreases the incentive to spend time trading and item-hunting on bnet because at the end of the day we could just go to SP and find the items more easily.
The only bnet players that would not be affected are those who only want items to later use in PvP, in which case they would not have any choice but to play online.
I see it as unfair for this reason: items are made rare to encourage online play and a trading community. If these items can be easily obtained simply by playing SP, it decreases the incentive to spend time trading and item-hunting on bnet because at the end of the day we could just go to SP and find the items more easily.
The only bnet players that would not be affected are those who only want items to later use in PvP, in which case they would not have any choice but to play online.
Re: This made me all butthurt...
But as far as item rarity and superior items go, we fundamentally disagree so let's just leave it at that. You want easily available items that are very balanced, and I want vastly superior items that are very hard to obtain. Either way, neither of us has any influence on the final product, so let's just see what blizzard decides to do.
The quest for the best items is not just for the sake of holding them, but for using them in pvp or to use them to kill monsters more efficiently. Obviously unless one gets a kick out of merely collecting cool items and doing nothing with them... then yes item hunting is a chore. But it's what you do with the items after. I made many mf characters over the years because I had a desire to get high end items. But I had motives for getting the best items, not just for the sake of collection. I agree with you that D3 should have more end game content.
But as far as item rarity and superior items go, we fundamentally disagree so let's just leave it at that. You want easily available items that are very balanced, and I want vastly superior items that are very hard to obtain. Either way, neither of us has any influence on the final product, so let's just see what blizzard decides to do.
Feonn
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: This made me all butthurt...
I só agree with you! I seriously haven't had a single good feeling about D3 yet...this only suports that feeling
Krugar
Banned
Re: This made me all butthurt...
There's plenty of other reasons to play online. Definitely item rarity is the one that never occurred to me. And your reasoning doesn't make it more logical. I'll really be a hard one to convince that someone doesn't play on b.net because "items are easier to find on SP". Besides they aren't. Battle.net trading makes any item in the game quickly accessible to any player provided they have the means to buy it, without having to go through the game to get them, as SPers have to.
You are really drawing a very strange argument here.
Does it occur to you that items are made rare because the game is based on the concept of item-hunting? Consequently this has nothing to do with inviting players to b.net.
There's plenty of other reasons to play online. Definitely item rarity is the one that never occurred to me. And your reasoning doesn't make it more logical. I'll really be a hard one to convince that someone doesn't play on b.net because "items are easier to find on SP". Besides they aren't. Battle.net trading makes any item in the game quickly accessible to any player provided they have the means to buy it, without having to go through the game to get them, as SPers have to.
You are really drawing a very strange argument here.