There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise... o

CarpeDiem

Diabloii.Net Member
There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

I hope I am not breaking the rules by posting a guide from another website, if so please delete the entire thread and I will pursue answers elsewhere.

In the guide linked to below it says, under skill allocation:

"So, the CL/Orb sorc maxes the following skills:

Frozen Orb
Chain Lightning
Lightning
Lightning Mastery

TOTAL POINTS: 80

Add on the prereq points, as well as static, warmth and teleport, and you have
a total of 89 points. Oh, and add a few points to Cold Mastery, too.

Let's say 94 points, which makes this build done by level 82.

NOW, as for order:

Put a point into each skill as you get it. Save all extra points up to level 12,
and then invest in lightning. At level 18, keep those extra points and invest
in Chain Lightning BUT NOT lightning.

At level 30, 1 point into each mastery and then points into Forb and CL. Max
Orb once you're out of extra skill points, and then max CL.
Lightning provides a greater damage bonus than LM after the first level, so max
lightning next. Finally, max Lighting Mastery and put a few points into Cold
Mastery.

Ta-da! you're done."

It's this bit that seems to be incorrect:

"Lightning provides a greater damage bonus than LM after the first level, so max
lightning next."

I assume the main skill used is Chain Lightning as the author aknowledges that since this hits far more enemies than Lightning it should be used in most circumstances. If so that sentence doesn't make sense because Lightning Mastery gives a 12% damage bonus to Chain Lightning each level, whereas it is 4% per level from Lightning.

The only interpretation I could make was that he means putting points in Lightning itself results in more damage to the Lightning skill than putting it in Lightning Mastery, which I find is the case using d2items, but this seems like a redundant point since it would be true for most skills.

Am I missing something?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/370600-diablo-ii-lord-of-destruction/faqs/40047
 

Scudstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Welcome to the forums :)

You aren't missing anything. Guide writers cannot humanly be omniscient and sometimes they make mistakes.

Though you shouldn't follow guides to the letter as they are merely opinions (unless they are widely acclaimed guides, anyways). This guide for instance favors a mix of rws and uniques over full Tal's, which is a very unfounded preference.

Feel free to ask around if you have questions :)
 

SeCKSEgai

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

I wouldn't say runewords/uniques are an unfounded preference for Sorcs - but for a CL/FO spec, I'd have to agree it's odd in the sheer fact that if you can afford to gear up beyond tals, then a pure lite sorc is most effective.

As Scud said, just because its a guide, don't take it for truth. Guides exist long after patches that can change/alter the experience. You never really want to assume a guide is 100% true unless you're very familiar with the mechanics and math of whatever game it is you're looking at.
 

DH Amazon

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Put a point into each skill as you get it. Save all extra points up to level 12,
and then invest in lightning. At level 18, keep those extra points and invest
in Chain Lightning BUT NOT lightning.

At level 30, 1 point into each mastery and then points into Forb and CL. Max
Orb once you're out of extra skill points, and then max CL.
Lightning provides a greater damage bonus than LM after the first level, so max
lightning next. Finally, max Lighting Mastery and put a few points into Cold
Mastery.

Ta-da! you're done."

It's this bit that seems to be incorrect:

"Lightning provides a greater damage bonus than LM after the first level, so max
lightning next."

I assume the main skill used is Chain Lightning as the author aknowledges that since this hits far more enemies than Lightning it should be used in most circumstances. If so that sentence doesn't make sense because Lightning Mastery gives a 12% damage bonus to Chain Lightning each level, whereas it is 4% per level from Lightning.

The only interpretation I could make was that he means putting points in Lightning itself results in more damage to the Lightning skill than putting it in Lightning Mastery, which I find is the case using d2items, but this seems like a redundant point since it would be true for most skills.

Am I missing something?
Maybe good items. After +15 skills that Lightning synergy gives better bonus than LM. In that guide end game items without skillers gives already +17.

Lightning gives you 2nd attack against single monsters too. In that guide 1-24000 Lightning damage is mentioned, that is extremely high for hybrid, so person who wrote that guide had godly items. At least for that person L was better choice.



 

CarpeDiem

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Thanks for the warm words of welcome and for everyone's input, I think the issue has been cleared up now. :)
 

CarpeDiem

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Maybe good items. After +15 skills that Lightning synergy gives better bonus than LM. In that guide end game items without skillers gives already +17.
+skills items don't give the synergy effect though I thought? Or am I mistaken?


 

hubb

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

No, you're right, but so is he. Because of the different way in which synergies and mastery affects damage, and because +skills don't affect synergies, there's a certain point (+15 light skills in this case, like DH said) at which it becomes better to spend points in a synergy rather than mastery. The same things happens with the balance between meteor/fire ball/fire mastery.
 

droid

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Its really a case of splitting hairs....as the OP said, you can have FO, L, CL, and LM maxed out by L82, from which point you just stick the rest of your points in CB for the synergy bonus.

While there may be an "optimized" path of point investment between L49 (when you max FO) and L82, I really would doubt the difference between an "optimized" path and a simple "max CL first, then LM, then L" path is more than ~2-3%
 

CarpeDiem

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

No, you're right, but so is he. Because of the different way in which synergies and mastery affects damage, and because +skills don't affect synergies, there's a certain point (+15 light skills in this case, like DH said) at which it becomes better to spend points in a synergy rather than mastery. The same things happens with the balance between meteor/fire ball/fire mastery.
I don't really understand.

Are you and droid in his post saying that at 'completion' (the very high levels) the character is the same? It's just while getting to completion more damage can be dealt with putting points in Lightning first rather than Lightning Mastery?

I don't really understand, Lightning Mastery doesn't have diminishing returns but increases its damage by 12% each level, and this is constant even after skill level 20.


 

hubb

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Because of the different way in which synergies and mastery affects damage, and because +skills don't affect synergies, there's a certain point (+15 light skills in this case, like DH said) at which it becomes better to spend points in a synergy rather than mastery.
Bolded for emphasis. Synergies add to the base damage. LM adds a percentage based on the damage with synergies already worked it. I'll do an example, using just the max dmg value to make it simpler. Points mentioned are hard points spent.

It goes (base damage + synergy%) + light mastery % = final damage

With 10 +skills:
1 CB, 10 L, 20 CL, 1 CM = (431 + 44%) + 170% = 1675
1 CB, 1 L, 20 CL, 10 CM = (431 + 8%) + 278% = 1759

With 20 +skills:
1 CB, 10 L, 20 CL, 1 CM = (581 + 44%) + 290% = 3263
1 CB, 1 L, 20 CL, 10 CM = (581 + 8%) + 398% = 3124

Like droid said the difference is tiny. This kind of stuff would be more important to an FO build that's maxing ice bolt and wants to get the most out of his fireball, for example.


 

Scudstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Not to mention you probably won't have all your stuff equipped before you max your skills (well, for L and LM in any case), which makes all this math pretty much moot :p
 

droid

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Yeah, the short answer is: if you're planning on maxing L, CL, and LM anyway (which as a CL/FO you of course are), dont worry about it, since you will end up in the same place no matter which path you take :)

And, if you're a smart CL/FOer, you're going to go full Tals, which with torch and anni and Spirit gives you +12 skills, so unless you find 3 lightning skillers, you're not past the +15 threshhold where synergies outpace mastery anyway.
 

CarpeDiem

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: There seems to be an error in this CL/FO guide... please advise...

Thank you all for the detailed replies. :)

I now understand what you mean and also the point that my character will end up the same regardless of how I place the skills along the way.
 
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