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There is ALLWAYS a better character?

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Generator Of Chaos, May 15, 2005.

  1. Generator Of Chaos

    Generator Of Chaos IncGamers Member

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    There is ALLWAYS a better character?

    I reckon I'm not exactly the master of PvP... But as far as I've noticed, eather blizzard did it on purpose or it was a "smart mistake", no matter wich character you master on PvP, there is ALLWAYS a character that can take you down...
    I dunno if this may be a little out of place, but, it's concerning PvP..

    So far, I believe this is how it goes (correct me If I'm wrong):

    Trappers <<< Bowazons
    Bowazona <<< Bone Necros
    Bone Necros <<< Sorcs (without the "ZOMG MEGGA SORBBB")
    Sorcs <<< Chargers/Zealers
    Those <<< Fury druids
    Fury druids <<< WW Barbs
    WW barbs <<< Bone Necros

    See where I'm going?
    This isn't complete, so if anyone has some "adicional info" please post it, or if you wish to correct some of the info here, please back up your statement(e.g. if you claim Fury druids can own WW barbs, please explain HOW..)

    Is it me, or there is absolutely no character class that can win over all others? (assuming the player skill and character equipment is perfect)
     
  2. BlasphemousMusic

    BlasphemousMusic IncGamers Member

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    There isn't any class that can beat everyone every time. Its mainly the user. There are no undefeated duelers, just ones with a winning record.

    With your calcs, this is how my scheme would look.

    WW Barbs <<< FoH Pally
    Bone Necro <<< FoH Pally
    ANY Sorc <<< FoH Pally
    Trapper <<< FoH Pally
    FoH Pally <<< bowazon with HIGH d/a/e and shoots from 4-5 screens away
    FoH Pally <<< wind druids w/ summons No chance here
    FoH Pally <<< summon necros Small chance if they tele and I hit them right away


    See where I am going? I am not claiming to be great, not even good, but this would be your comparison here. When I duel in pubs, I usually win every time against those chars. But thats pubs, and they are not as skilled. People claim fohers suck...have no skill....blah blah blah. It takes a ton of skill to properly dodge fireballs, blizz, spears...etc But most pub duelers are unskilled, or just want to have fun and don't care to use tactics.

    Hopefully, this will shed some light on it. Bottom line, no char is unstoppable, its the player using that char that can be.
     
  3. Generator Of Chaos

    Generator Of Chaos IncGamers Member

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    A good bone necro can beat a foher...just tele around the foher casting BSs... or tele away casting BSs..Fohers have to have you in screen to hit you, Bone Necros don't...

    Edit: forgot to add: and yeah, that's my point, I was just wondering if anyone thinks that there is 1 character that can rulle supreme Vs. All.
     
  4. morotsjos

    morotsjos Banned

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    Barbs.............
     
  5. RetroStar

    RetroStar IncGamers Member

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    WW Barbs!

    10chars
     
  6. RetroStar

    RetroStar IncGamers Member

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    Couldn't edit.

    I'll like to see a well built WW Barb lose to a FoHdin.

    Actually Wind Droods without summons can own FoHdins simply because of cyclone armour.
     
  7. Generator Of Chaos

    Generator Of Chaos IncGamers Member

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    wrong, Barbs can't own ALL chars...they are very versatile, but they can't win Vs. ALL chars..

    Retro: I've seen that happen...Vs. a godly FoHer...
     
  8. RetroStar

    RetroStar IncGamers Member

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    Godly Foher vs. Crappy WW Barb.

    It's possible but very slight chance compared to the WW barb beating the foher.
     
  9. Generator Of Chaos

    Generator Of Chaos IncGamers Member

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    It wasn't a crappy barb... Unless by crappy you mean "didn't use a town of absorb on top of maxed resists".

    Yes. WW Barbs do have a big possibility of beaiting FoHers, but it's more players then character dependant.

    The barb did win a couple times, but the FoHer was dominant..
     
  10. Maestro

    Maestro IncGamers Member

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    I duel with a Hammerdin (mainly in pubs) and I don't consider myself to be extremely skilled or anything like that. I usually lose to a lot of Bone necros 200 fcr fsb sorcs, FOHs, Trappers (with mind blast) and especially wind druids (@#$% minion stacking *lol*). So the thing is, while I consider the Hammerdin class to be omnipotent when it comes to PvM, they plain suck in PvP.

    Strangely enough though, the one class that I absolutely eat alive are the Barbs (especially the Whirl wind ones). Many times a barb would just tele wirlwind on me, sometimes long, sometimes short, even triangular occasionally and then just assume that I'm dead. However when using a Hoz together with near maxed holy shield my block rate from what I hear goes up from 75% to 82% chance to block which means I can tank virtually any whirlwind that comes my way.

    Ofcourse people talk about barb strategies such as telewhirling from the south of my character, using high lvl leap for stun/knock back etc... but to me these strategies are just plain silly. The reason being is cause I have enough fhr (using shaeled Shako + Sandtreks + a load of fhr sc's) that I can just stand still, wait on the barb to eventually wirlwind me, take at the most one hit from the wirl wind (many times... no hits at all), and still get my hammers out before he can tele away (this goes for the short and triangular whirls as well). After that its pretty much academic since three to four 12K hammers = dead barb.

    My whole point above is just to reinforce the fact that NO character can own all others.
     
  11. morotsjos

    morotsjos Banned

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    Yes they can.

    Edit;

    Maestro: What realm do you play on?
    You're wrong about hammerdins, they're one of the best classes in pvp if you know how to play, desynching hammerdins can beat most chars easy.

    75% block is max, and dualwielding wwbarbs slice through that like nothing.
    I wouldn't judge wwbarbs based on experience in pubbies.
     
  12. Maestro

    Maestro IncGamers Member

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    I play on US East non-ladder.

    Well like I said, I'm not particularly skilled but I am able to tank whirlwinds fairly easily. Holy shield may not increase chance to block beyond 75% (perhaps what I read on the net was wrong), but it does increase blocking speed by quite a bit. With cta Bo my life is 3.5 K and that allows me to survive 1 to 2 hits fairly easily from a whirlwind with my shield blocking the rest. Thats also why i tend to do fairly well against bowazins who strafe also.

    In theory, desynching hammerdins are pretty good but to desynch you need to use charge and thats currently very buggy. For instance, if you happen to die while charging you can't use the charge skill again until you leave and then re-enter game. Ofcourse, for people like me who die a lot (*lol*), thats a nuisance I would rather do without.
     
  13. Maestro

    Maestro IncGamers Member

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    I play on US East non-ladder.

    Well like I said, I'm not particularly skilled but I am able to tank whirlwinds fairly easily. Holy shield may not increase chance to block beyond 75% (perhaps what I read on the net was wrong), but it does increase blocking speed by quite a bit. With cta Bo my life is 3.5 K and that allows me to survive 1 to 2 hits fairly easily from a whirlwind with my shield blocking the rest. Thats also why i tend to do fairly well against bowazins who strafe also.

    In theory, desynching hammerdins are pretty good but to desynch you need to use charge and thats currently very buggy. For instance, if you happen to die while charging you can't use the charge skill again until you leave and then re-enter game. Ofcourse, for people like me who die a lot (*lol*), thats a nuisance I would rather do without.
     
  14. Maestro

    Maestro IncGamers Member

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    oops... sorry about double post.
     
  15. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial IncGamers Member

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    Someone find me a barb that can beat my necro, then see if he can beat the best necros on East. I have yet to lose to any BvC barb although I'd be interested in a rematch against Luis now that he has this vaunted full screen Leap. Last I checked, Subversus (Necro, East NL) beat Blobs in a best of 7 or something like that. I believe you were all saying Blobs was the best of the best BvC barbs.

    I don't want to repeat it too much, but I've got a very very mediocre/weak necro so that doesn't say too much about BvC barbs when I beat all the ones I've met. And I've played some ranked ones which are supposedly the best East has.

    Specifically, Moro get off your "WW BARBS > ALL" pedestal. I will admit here and now that a well played BvC barb can beat the largest percentage of duelers out there, they are very powerful and versatile. However, they are not unbeatable.

    On Topic:
    I believe it goes something like this-
    BvC barb < Necros and Windies
    Necros < ES Sorcs
    ES Sorcs < BvC barbs and Ghost sins
    Necros = Windies
    Windies < Trappers and Ghost sins
    Trappers < Even small amounts of absorb and most of the above
    Ghost sins < WW Barbs

    These classes can dominate just about any other class. I'm not sure where Hammerdins fit in, but they are certainly a contender too.
     
  16. Maestro

    Maestro IncGamers Member

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    Windies < Trappers and Ghost sins

    Can't agree with you here since Windies Cyclone armor easily absorbs lightning traps
     
  17. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial IncGamers Member

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    It absorbs lightning traps for a short period of time and can render the Windy pretty well protected provided he recasts it regularly. However, this is not the deciding factor in this match.

    Mindblast stunlocks and Druids have some of the worst fhr frames in the game and thus are very very easily stunlocked indefinetly. Once they are locked down, the traps will eat away at the Cyclone armor in a few seconds and then the Druid will proceed to die quickly and easily.

    Ghost sins will lock the Druid down the same way then proceed to WW then to death. Minion stacking doesn't help the druid in this matchup either because Mindblast will knock the minions off of the druid.

    This might be a more accurate statement: Mindblast > Windies.
     
  18. luis19

    luis19 IncGamers Member

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    phyrexial ill prolly reduel you once i get a few items and get used to some new hotkeys.
    some things to add:
    windys do not beat barbs.
    befroe i had leap, i lost only to a handful of windys, once i remade with leap, i had a chance to reduel half of them and the results were gory.
    currently the only class i have any problem with are some necros.

    so id say wwbarb > all but a few necros
    then from there you basically got it all down phrexial.
    i havent had the chance to duel any necs worth beating since i remade, but my bro has and he beat about 1/3 of the few necs that could beat me prior to rebuilding. so ill practice on a few of my friends with leap.

    also if any hammerdin thinks they can beat a ww barb, ill glady prove otherwise:
    *dirtydozen131
    USeast NL
    only a handful of hammerdins have given me any challenge, and out of those, even fewer have won any series of duels at all (i end up dueling the same group of worthy hammerdins many times over).
     
  19. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial IncGamers Member

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    Ah, okay. I was under the impression that very good Windies were proving trouble for you Luis after hearing that the recasting minions was making things difficult. I'm assuming that Leap helps quite a bit.

    Corrected:
    BvC barb < Necros
    Necros < ES Sorcs
    ES Sorcs < BvC barbs and Ghost sins
    Necros = Windies
    Windies < Trappers and Ghost sins
    Trappers < Even small amounts of absorb and most of the above
    Ghost sins < WW Barbs

    I look forward to redueling you Luis as soon as I reinstall D2. I got a new computer and I'm so happy that I can minimize games and not have my computer freeze now.
    :clap:
     
  20. mcm

    mcm Banned

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    Wei lost 5-2 or something like that using Koda's barb ON USEast with less life, less damage, no leap, and a 100-200ms ping.

    Koda created a necro (I believe a perfect one, correct me if I'm wrong) and dueled my prototype barb on a TCP/IP game, and lost 5-1 to me.

    The problem is that lag has the biggest influence on this match up. Neither character can just spam and get away with it, both characters need low latency and no crappy bnet pauses to avoid being put in a very bad situation by the other. Given equal terms I still rate barb > nec even with NL gear unless the barb makes several bad mistakes.

    I have a best-possible necro char file that I can email you if you want to fight what I think is an ideal BVA barb in some tcp/ip games. Priv msg me your email addr if you want.
     

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