The truth about Tal's Set...

oordeel

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

Hey guys,

just a quick question, I have 4/5 of tal's atm, but I don't see any of the bonuses on the eye for - resist to enemies. Is it a hidden stat ? sorry for the noob question.

In any case, this is an awesome thread and thanks a ton to the contributors (even if it's a few years old:) )
 

melianor

D3 Wizard Moderator
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

Hey guys,

just a quick question, I have 4/5 of tal's atm, but I don't see any of the bonuses on the eye for - resist to enemies. Is it a hidden stat ? sorry for the noob question.

In any case, this is an awesome thread and thanks a ton to the contributors (even if it's a few years old:) )
Yes, set items retain hidden bonuses once you equip either some of the items or all of them.

Tal Rasha´s Wrappings



 

Akse

Banned
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

Argh, after reading this I really wanna make cold/fire sorc with tal's set :) Pity I don't have anything in LOD:)
 

MordainThade

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

This post is quite simply one of the most useful posts I've seen on any D2 board; I originally built a Meteorb Sorc, and then with a bit of personal tweaking, I've rebuilt and made myself a tri-element sorc (maxed FO, FB, Meteor, and Thuderstorm at level **). The big trick with the rebuild is ZERO hard points into any Masteries, solely using the ones granted by Tal's Orb. My gear gives me +13 to all skills and +1 to Fire, not counting skill charms (Tal's +6, Spirit Monarch +2, self-found SoJ +1, Torch +3, Anni +1).

Tal's Orb gives +2 Cold Mastery; modified by +skills, it's at level 15. A single Cold skiller, plus a +5/-5 Cold Facet into the Orb allows for the armor and helm to still be PTopaz'd for the MF, and still gives -100 to enemy CR. You could use another Cold skiller to do the same, but your damage is ever-so-slightly less, and you have a 3x1 space taken up in your inventory.

Also note that with a perfect 20 resists on both an Anni and Torch, Tal's complete (in conjunction with a Spirit Monarch, which, in my opinion, should be the only shield a Sorc ever uses in her end game) gives 75/75/75/70 for resists without the use of other charms (again, more stash space)... Cold and Lightning are both well above 75, actually. I wear a Nature's Peace for the almighty RIP for easy Nihl hunting, and it fixes the poison resist as well.

In case there's curiosity, my gear is: Tal's complete (armor and helm PTopaz'd, Orb with +5/-5 Cold Facet), 35%FCR Spirit Monarch, Magefists, War Traveler, SoJ, Nature's Peace, Anni, Torch, a Fire skiller with FHR, and a Cold skiller (ideally, that would just be a Cold Skiller with FHR instead).
 

Akse

Banned
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

This post is quite simply one of the most useful posts I've seen on any D2 board; I originally built a Meteorb Sorc, and then with a bit of personal tweaking, I've rebuilt and made myself a tri-element sorc (maxed FO, FB, Meteor, and Thuderstorm at level **). The big trick with the rebuild is ZERO hard points into any Masteries, solely using the ones granted by Tal's Orb. My gear gives me +13 to all skills and +1 to Fire, not counting skill charms (Tal's +6, Spirit Monarch +2, self-found SoJ +1, Torch +3, Anni +1).

Tal's Orb gives +2 Cold Mastery; modified by +skills, it's at level 15. A single Cold skiller, plus a +5/-5 Cold Facet into the Orb allows for the armor and helm to still be PTopaz'd for the MF, and still gives -100 to enemy CR. You could use another Cold skiller to do the same, but your damage is ever-so-slightly less, and you have a 3x1 space taken up in your inventory.

Also note that with a perfect 20 resists on both an Anni and Torch, Tal's complete (in conjunction with a Spirit Monarch, which, in my opinion, should be the only shield a Sorc ever uses in her end game) gives 75/75/75/70 for resists without the use of other charms (again, more stash space)... Cold and Lightning are both well above 75, actually. I wear a Nature's Peace for the almighty RIP for easy Nihl hunting, and it fixes the poison resist as well.

In case there's curiosity, my gear is: Tal's complete (armor and helm PTopaz'd, Orb with +5/-5 Cold Facet), 35%FCR Spirit Monarch, Magefists, War Traveler, SoJ, Nature's Peace, Anni, Torch, a Fire skiller with FHR, and a Cold skiller (ideally, that would just be a Cold Skiller with FHR instead).
Hey thanks for posting, this will be my future build or something :). So you have TS as some extra single target damage and to deal with cold/fire immunes? Rest goes down with orb/fb/meteor?

I'm getting in trouble after reading these boards, there are so many builds I wanna try now :) And I have 0 items :)



 

jackfunk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

Tal's Orb gives +2 Cold Mastery; modified by +skills, it's at level 15.
I didn't seem to recall that item granted skills were modified by +skills? I don't mean to be a doubting thomas, your skill tree shows 15?

Why/how did I not see this before?

* starts to plan out a meteorb again :thumbup: *



 

lumpor

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

I laugh at all nooobs who think some +skills and resists, and fcr is better than +skill damage and -enemy resist. Learn percentual boosts, noobs
 

sirpoopsalot

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

@jackfunk,
Perhaps you're thinking of auras (like the Meditation aura granted by an Insight polearm)? Those auras don't get boosted (or any item-given skill that says "granted when equipped") - those are always set at the specified levels.

But you can definitely boost the +mastery skills from from the orb.
 

xzist

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

dude melianor, been having this conversation for over 4 years now? lol
 

Toreaver

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

great analysis. i love numbers and they are all there. tal's was always a very attractive set as i play HC and the life and res on tal's are invaluable. so i come here, and also learn that it does more damage than the "high end" gear, never would have guessed.
 

melianor

D3 Wizard Moderator
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

dude melianor, been having this conversation for over 4 years now? lol
Correct and i never get tired of point at this wonderful set :crazyeyes:

great analysis. i love numbers and they are all there. tal's was always a very attractive set as i play HC and the life and res on tal's are invaluable. so i come here, and also learn that it does more damage than the "high end" gear, never would have guessed.
It's one of the examples that reducing resistances has alot more impact on damage output, when resistances are present, which is manyfold in hell mode. With this set, Blizz really thought up something nice. Also the fact that it is rather high level is well put, since the benefits form the set would be nice in NM, but not necessary, and in Hell it really starts to shine, literally! :whistling:



 

Cranium

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

I woul Like to point out that tals is not nessiciarly better all the time mind you there are personal prefrences but I am not talking about this. I just spent 9 hrs doing math to prove this and its very tedious and annoying. Mine had to do with a completely decked out Tri Sorc Caster but I am wondering if maybe Tals can be proven not to be the best for end game besides for my Tri Sorc build. Here is the link to what I am talking about Tri Sorc Caster Uber Equipment. Now mind you this may just be a weird exception that is only viable for my build but its worth investigating. Make sure to read the whole post to get the full background on it.
 

Ilumm

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

After trying both full tal and only arm/amy/belt on a blizz sorc i can clearly say that full tal is better.

Full tal gives you more dmg/same fcr/better res.
 

Cranium

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

I am talking godly gear vs it like Nightwing/Shako, Chains of Honor, Arachnids, Eschutas and Maras. I think it might be able to be better then Tals. You would get same fcr but more +skills. I screwed up my math on my page so I have to spend 3-4hrs fixing it but I am pretty sure it will exceed Tals unless you are purposefully attackin an immune monster with a spell it is immune too. Then the damage will likely be higher with Tals Set the downside is the damage is still going to be low because the monster is immune. Thus bringing up why you are attacking a immune monster with a spell its immune too. I am pretty sure if your a single tree setup there is even better setups like griffons for light sorcs. Maybe a dual tree sorc but I am pretty sure you can find an equip setup that is going to be better. This is for ubers mainly I am thinking about but...

The math is fixed hopefully for once and all.
 
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Anathema

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

Its good to see someone confirm what I strongly suspected- Tal's set is the last word for meteorb sorcies. I didn't do any calculations, but I have done experimentation even to the extent of sticking an enigma on my lil' sorc, and nothing could match Tal's. I faceted my orb/mask/armor with fire facets, and now little Canoness is a monster. My fireball damage isn't godly (just under 7k with MF setupe, 500 FO) but having -30% fire resist makes them HURT.

I love getting hate for using the full set, especially when I hear dumb things like using HoTO on a sorc- why?

This thread is pretty old (I remember reading before I quit this last time, over a year ago) but I want to give it a bump, spread the word, and give definite kudos to the OP.

Maybe you can get a few convertees?
 

lumpor

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

I am talking godly gear vs it like Nightwing/Shako, Chains of Honor, Arachnids, Eschutas and Maras. I think it might be able to be better then Tals. You would get same fcr but more +skills. I screwed up my math on my page so I have to spend 3-4hrs fixing it but I am pretty sure it will exceed Tals unless you are purposefully attackin an immune monster with a spell it is immune too. Then the damage will likely be higher with Tals Set the downside is the damage is still going to be low because the monster is immune. Thus bringing up why you are attacking a immune monster with a spell its immune too. I am pretty sure if your a single tree setup there is even better setups like griffons for light sorcs. Maybe a dual tree sorc but I am pretty sure you can find an equip setup that is going to be better. This is for ubers mainly I am thinking about but...

The math is fixed hopefully for once and all.
It has already been said over and over for ages. -res owns +skills in terms of damage. I understood this from the beginning. Can't understand how people still can think increasing your skill level by 5% can increase your damage more than lowering the enemies resistance by 15.

And -res doesn't affect immunities.


 

sirpoopsalot

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

Lumpor, I think he was referring to a pure blizzsorc.

In that case, I'd rather have godly gear (namely DFathom + Nightwings + partial Tal's, not the stuff he mentioned). I think the damage would be higher with that than with the full set (especially with a good investment in CM), and the MF & survivability could stay quite tolerable too.

Otherwise, especially on dual-element sorcs, full Tal's is one of the best, as this thread proves. The (relative) lack of FCR from the set can be a little tough on a lightning-based sorc, but that's not insurmountable, and the other benefits of the set can be worth it.
 

AxlStrife

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

SirPoopsalot drops it on the head once again. With price/godliness ratio for dual-tree and tri-tree to consider, Tal's is definitely the end-all-be-all. For less than a hr you can easily get numbers comparable to Eilo Rytyj's in the sticky.
 

lumpor

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The truth about Tal's Set...

She was actually talking about her triple-element sorc. I'm aware that for pure cold sorcs, nothing can substitute fathom, let alone nightwing and ormus as well
 

MageChick

Diabloii.Net Member
Yes, I'm intentionally bumping a 14 year old post. The data here is just that good, and the links off "The Sorceress Guide & Knowledge Library" aren't working anymore.

If you don't want to read this whole post - short version is that full Tal's is still better than partial Tal's, but it will be replaced once you get to the point of having an infinity merc. Just combine your full Tal's with a Spirit monarch shield and 20% FCR gloves to get to the 105% FCR breakpoint, then you can happily MF away while everyone else is still saving for their 1st piece of HR runeword gear.



A few things have changed since this thread originally started - specifically the 1.11-1.14 patches. While 1.11+ brought some new runewords, the biggest changes have probably been the increased drop rates for legitimate high runes, and the ability respec without needing to completely start your char over.

In some ways these changes have hurt the viability of full Tal Rasha wearing dual or triple-tree sorcs. But Tal's is still a great set for the reasons mentioned in the original post (plus a few more I'll mention later). The negative resists on full Tals are worth more than a few extra +skills that you get from any sort of partial Tal's gearing with Shako and HOTO/Oculus. But, these changes have made high rune (HR) crafted gear like Engima, CoH, Fortitue, and Infinity actually possible for the common folk - so now there's gear that will straight out beat full Tals for every senario. However, this gear is still insanely expensive in a new ladder season, and that's where full Tal's still shines.

To be clear, the prevalence of Infinity mercs (comes with a level 12 conviction aura which reduces enemy resistances by 85%), means that the negative resistances that Tal's set gives will be overshadowed. Once you're running with a godly merc with Infinity pole arm, there's really no reason to use full Tal's (same applies if you're always running with a conviction paly). But on the other hand, that still takes multiple high runes to make and you have to get those runes somehow - a full Tal's set is probably still the best middle-level gear set to do that.

Its also true that it used to be pretty much required to run dual (if not triple) talent trees as there was almost no place in the game that could farm without encountering at least some mobs that would be immune to a single tree. So builds like Meteorb, or Blizzballer that basically split talent points evenly between the fire and ice trees were the go-to build for magic farming. But this is also something that Infinity mercs have mostly changed - being able to break many of otherwise immune monsters in the game does mean that builds that heavily focus on a single tree can get much more damage through synergies, and with items like annihilus charm and torches, you can get by with a very weak 2nd talent tree and it'll probably be good enough to deal with anything you do encounter that's immune to your primary damage type.

The one piece that the orignal poster didn't really get into was the shield choice. Back in the 1.09 and 1.10 days, many sorcs will still about a max block or energy shield build - we just didn't know better. But now its easy to see that sorcs are best off just ignoring blocking entirely - with only base points in dex, we won't block often, but that's OK. Spirit runeword shields (build in a 4os Monarch) are outstanding with a full Tals set. The best criticism of Tal's set was that it only came with 50% FCR and 25% FHR. Spirit + Tals bumps us up to 75-85% FCR and 75% FHR. If we add in Trang-Oul's or Magefist gloves (may as well up them 2x) or we can get to 95-105% FCR, meaning that a perfect Spirit shield will get us to 8 frame per cast break point (sub in a FCR ring if you can't get a perfect spirit shield). At 75% FHR, we're close enought to get to the 7 frame hit recovery break point once we add some FHR on boots or in a charm (just add 11% more FHR to get past the 86 FHR breakpoint).

156 Strength is still a lot of points to invest, that I wish we didn't have to. But the Spirit shield is just that good with full Tals, and even if you get into an infinity merc while you wear Shako, Occy, CoH, Arachnid Mesh & Mara, you'll stil be using a Spirit shield. At least now that the game gives you some options to respec your char, you can start by investing hard points into STR, and once you get an annihilus and torch, then you can move some of those STR points back to VIT.
 
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