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The truth about Tal's Set...

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by Zroc, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    The truth about Tal's Set...

    Ok, I've been wanting to do this for awhile. I hell-baal a LOT, and wear Tal's full set. I actually get called a newb a lot for doing so...the most common reason given is "tal's belt/armor/ammy + hoto and shako ownz tal's set". The other most popular reason subs Occy for hoto. I'll just get that one out of the way right now...yes, with Occy and Shako, you will have 100% more mf than Tal's mask and Orb. However, like many, I cannot stand the random teleport, especially as much as I telebaal...I prefer complete control.

    So then, let's take a look at Full Tal's versus Tal's armor/belt/ammy + shako and Hoto.
    In order to be complete, I did NOT use a skill planner to give you these stats...I used my character, so what you're seeing is actual in-game results.
    To be thorough, here's my level 87 meteorb sorc:

    Hard Skill Points:
    Cold: 20 points Frozen Orb/1 point Cold Mastery (I have the luxury of having a roomate who runs a max conviction pally...henceforth, me putting more points in this is a waste, due to the -100 resistance cap)

    Fire: 8 in Fire Bolt, 20 in Fire Ball and Meteor, 11 in Fire Mastery (I also put a point in enchant...with plus skills, it's level 10, so I effectively add 110 fire damage and a fat 101% AR bonus to my party and their mercs/minions for 360 seconds every run...worth it, imo).

    Equipment is Tal's set, 3 um'd Headhunters, Chance Guards, War Travs, and 2 sojs. In inventory, I don't run any skill charms except an anni...for that matter, I run exactly an anni, a 40% gheeds, and 20 7% magic find charms.
    For this test, I will simply be swapping out Tal's Orb (it's a 2/2/2 orb...vital, imo, to at least have the 2's in the skills you use) and Tal's mask with Hoto and Shako.

    Damage: I will be focusing on Frozen Orb, Meteor, and Fire Ball damage.

    With Tal's set:
    Frozen Orb is at level 29, damage is 482, Cold Mastery is at level 12.
    Fire Ball is at level 29, damage is 5199, Fire Mastery is at level 22.
    Meteor is at level 29, damage is 11115, Fire Mastery at level 22.

    Subbing Hoto and Shako:
    Frozen Orb is at level 30, damage is 432, Cold Mastery is at level 11.
    Fire Ball is at level 30, damage is 5333, Fire Mastery is at level 21.
    Meteor is at level 30, damage is 11385, Fire Mastery at level 21.

    Just glancing at the numbers, they're pretty damn close, eh? First impression would be that your Frozen Orb is significantly better with Tal's, while Fire Ball and Meteor are slightly better with Hoto and Shako.

    But that would not be accurate without further investigating the 'other' Tal's Orb effects...namely +15% Cold Damage (which is obvious above) and -15% Fire and Lightning Resistance (which is not).

    Let's take Hell Baal for example, as he has 50% resistance against both cold and fire:

    ----
    Tal's Frozen Orb: 482 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -75% resistance from level 12 CM; net effect is 482 + 25% = 602.

    Hoto/Shako Frozen Orb: 435 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -70% resistance from level 11 CM; net effect is 435 + 20% = 522.

    I do 80 more points of FO damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a rather stout 15.3% more damage.

    ----
    Tal's Fire Ball: 5199 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 5199 -35% = 3379.

    Hoto/Shako Fire Ball: 5333 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 5333 -50% = 2666.

    Oww...I do 713 more points of Fire Ball damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a HUGE 26.7% more damage with Tal's.
    This pretty much tells you what'll happen with Meteor...

    ----
    Tal's Meteor: 11115 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 11115 -35% = 7224.

    Hoto/Shako Meteor: 11385 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 11385 -50% = 5692.

    Yep...I do 1532 more points of initial Meteor damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a fat 26.9% Meteor damage improvement with Tal's Orb/Mask over Hoto and Shako. Naturally, this applies to the per-second burn damage from Meteor as well.
    ----

    In a nutshell, I do 15.3% more Frozen Orb damage, 26.7% more Fire Ball damage, and 26.9% more Meteor damage using Tal's Orb and mask to complete the set versus using Hoto and Shako in conjunction with Tal's armor/ammy/belt. Folks, that's a LOT more damage.

    Just because I want to be complete in this thread, I'll compare the added stats outside those already mentioned (skills, damage modifiers):

    Tal's Orb, Mask, and set bonus gives you:
    -50% Faster Cast...please note here that if you just use belt/armor/ammy, you lose the 10% bonus on the ammy...net effect by using Hoto/Shako is a 10% FCR gain.
    -267 life (57 Orb, 60 Mask, 150 set bonus)
    -10 energy from the orb (effect gets boosted by sojs)
    -107 Mana (77 Orb, 30 Mask)
    -25% Faster Hit Recovery (I like this for telebaalin)
    -150 defense, +50 versus missiles
    -65% All Resists (15 from Mask, 50 from set bonus)

    The replensh +10 life and 65% magic find bonuses are shared between the two setups.

    Shako and Hoto gives you:
    -2 to all attributes
    -130 Life and 130 Mana (1.5 per char level...I'm level 87)
    -10% Damage Reduction
    -10% net more Faster Cast Rate (see explaination above)
    -75% more melee damage to demos and 100 AR to demons (uh, who cares)
    -3-14 cold damage and 7% mana leech (because I melee so much)
    -10 Dex (nice for max block sorcs)
    -Replenish Life +20
    -Increase Maximum Mana 15%
    -All resists between 30 and 40

    What all that means on my character screen is:
    With Tal's, I have 1147 life, 873 mana
    With Hoto/Shako, I have 1014 life, 892 mana

    So I have a lot more life and a little less mana with Tal's. Those differences will change 1.5 per level +/- where you're at compared to level 87.

    So Hoto/Shako, as far as useful stats, gets me a little more mana, 10% faster cast, 10 dex, and +20 to replenish life...at the cost 15.3% FO damage, 26.7% FB damage, 26.9% Meteor damage, a lot of life, 25% faster hit recovery, roughly 100 defense (more versus missiles), and somewhere between 25 and 35% Resist All, depending on the quality of your Hoto.

    Meh, I'll stick with Tal's ;)

    This example is for a meteorb sorc...actually, he's becoming more of a Fireball sorc each level, cuz 5100+ damage not on a timer is rather effective, and I will continue to invest 1 point into Fire Bolt and two in Fire Mastery as I level.

    I suspect these net results would be similar for other builds, including lightning, simply because of the +2 mastery and -15% on the lightning Tal's Orb would give. Commentary/proof welcome on that...I don't have a light sorc.

    This is also a commentary on your basic pvm/mf sorc gear...this sorc with ist'd tals/ptopaz tal's helm and armor runs 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I think that's a rather respectable magic find percentage given the fact that I have really good kill speed and max resistances.

    That was fun...commentary welcomed ;)
     
  2. TitanCentaur

    TitanCentaur Banned

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    Nice analysis. I my self consider tal armor/belt/ammy is better than the entire tal set. I will take a second look at the whole set. I'll post my result some time.
     
  3. Celandro

    Celandro IncGamers Member

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    The numbers pretty much match up with the theoretical calculations Ive done. However, Im a pure lightning sorc and Griffons Eye far outmatches the full set bonus, so then its a comparison of 4 set orb bonus vs. Hoto.. Guess which wins.. Crescent Moon rune word with its whopping -35% enemy lightning resist. Trick question ;)
     
  4. TitanCentaur

    TitanCentaur Banned

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    I thought Cresent Moon weapon -35% lit resist only applies when it is attack, not when using a spell. I may be wrong.
     
  5. Celandro

    Celandro IncGamers Member

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    Seems to be working just fine for me, I can notice the difference against Mephisto unless its my imagination talking...
     
  6. TitanCentaur

    TitanCentaur Banned

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    Nvm, you are right. Look at tal orb it has the same bonus as cresent moon weapon. I bet bliz didn't intend sorc to start wacking monster with tal orb either so... :)
     
  7. Celandro

    Celandro IncGamers Member

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    Whacking monsters with my mythical sword sure is fun though!

    Not that my attack rating is high enough for that to be an effective strategy :(
     
  8. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Titancentaur: yes, please do play with it to confirm my results. Just by observation in playing, I notice a difference, yet I had my doubts because SO many told me to use hoto/shako. And using skill calcs seemed to back that up. But when I actually do it, on my character, it all comes together for Tal's.

    Celandro: Ooo, nice. Yeah, just by looking at what -fire resistance does to fire damage in my post, I would think -15-20% on a griffon's eye WOULD be rather significant (not to mention the +10-15% increased damage and 25% FCR, which is far more important to a light sorc than a meteorb sorc).

    Hmm, however, like titan mentioned, I don't think cresent moon actually does work with spells (I tried Doom, didn't seems to notice a jump in damage).
    Regardless, that would be a pretty tough call...if it works, it's a huge -35% resistance, but the cost is 1 raw skill, 2 points in mastery (which, if it works like fire mastery, is a rather huge 24% addition to your post-synergy damage), and 30% total faster cast rate (20 from orb, and 10% additional bonus on the ammy for wearing 4 pieces), along with the 25% faster hit recovery for 4 pieces.

    If the -35% works, it's almost a toss-up, particularly if that additional 30% FCR hits another breakpoint. If it does NOT work...well use Tal's immediately ;)
    Might be worth looking into? I'd think with a decent amount of playing time using both, you'd find out pretty quickly.
     
  9. Celandro

    Celandro IncGamers Member

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    I do have tals set, griffons eye and crescent moon to choose from. I do recall when I switched to crescent moon from tal orb with light facet in it that I killed mephisto almost twice as fast. The issue with doom rune word is that it stacks with cold mastery which makes it ineffective. Ormus robes for example works the same way.. its great for a cold sorc, horrible for everyone else, because it will stack with fire and light masteries. For cold sorcs, best weapon is Deaths Fathom for the same reason crescent moon works.
     
  10. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    That part about Doom/cold sorcs certainly makes sense. And if you're killing Meph twice as fast, I'd have to assume that it IS working, cuz I believe Meph has 75% lightning resist.

    Just for curiosity's sake, if you could, next time you're on, write down your damage with cresent moon equiped, and then the damage with Tal's orb equiped, and post it here (just swap those two). I'd like to run the math on it (and post the stats on the lightning facet in your tal orb).

    Thanks!
     
  11. Celandro

    Celandro IncGamers Member

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    Theres a slight complication.. I sold my tals armor already because I needed more fcr from the armor and belt slots (vipermagi and arachnids mesh). I may be able to do the test again sometime though..
     
  12. Stormcryer

    Stormcryer IncGamers Member

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    When I first started to construct the archmage build I was testing I did the math with equipment etc, and finally had to opt for the complete Tal Set.

    Using it with twin soj, uped viscer, war travs and magefist was the only way I could add stats to all the main attributes that I needed to make the build work. + Skills, +FCR, increased damage, + res, and of course the residual MF.

    It's worked great for me. The MF, Life and addidional skills you can get from charms. Try to find an FCR Charm......or a max + to chance of blocking charm....LOL

    Storm
     
  13. whathappen

    whathappen IncGamers Member

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    We had a discussion on the tal rasha set in this forum yesterday or so and that was precisely the point some of us made about the Tal rasha set. That is very effective for a meteorb. Your numbers prove that our suspicion was right. Very good analysis.

    The discusison is here:

    http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=149973
     
  14. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    Very nice analysis Zroc!
    I'll follow up confirming your build and the values with my Meteorb sorc and alternative Occy/Shako setup.

    The way i see it, -xx% res, +xx% dam and (with best orb) +2 to masteries adds enough to outshine the other setups. Its funny to see that you dont loose +skills that way :p

    The only way to get more killing power would be to ditch the whole Tal's Set (except ammy) and substitute with UM+Viper, Arachnid, Occy/HotO, Shako, which i am playing around now with. I get the same Res than as with the Tal's setup but i lack some life and other stuff (though FCR suddenly is crazy)

    In your comparison though i absoluty agree that Full Tal's outshines and half Tal Set breed in any way. Some people jst dont want to do the calculations and miss out on the -xx%res and +xx%dam. Match that with a perfect Tal's Orb and you can build Archmage or Meteorb very effective.
    The point is that Tal's Set is useful on a 2-tree or 3-tree build but not on single-tree.

    Thx for couting it all out to us!
     
  15. Stiertje

    Stiertje IncGamers Member

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    I hope this was being sarcastic :scratch:
     
  16. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Thanks guys!

    I can save you a little bit of trouble, melianor...I went back to my character, and went with viper/arachnid along with hoto/shako. This gave me a level 32 meteor with 13134 damage, which, if you cut it in half, is 6567...still a lot less than the 7224 I was effectively doing with Tal's. Easy math would tell you you'd need to hit 15K to beat the Tal setup, basically. FO was 466 compared to 482 on the Tal's gear.

    Remember, though, this is more an analysis for magic finding AND killing power, in which I'm not sure Tal's can be matched. The kill power is there, the resistances let me add mf in spades. Again, I'm running 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I experimented with ist'd occy and shako over full tal's (which adds 100%mf), and as described above, my kill power drops a LOT, and I lose a whopping 45 all resists...which means I'd have to pull a lot of 7% mf charms out of inventory to make up for that. Which ties into...

    I also get negative comments for running um's in my shield instead of ists. Well, I look at it this way...two um's gives me 44 resists, two ists gives me 50 mf. It would take me 9 5% all-resist charms (which don't exactly grow on trees) to get 45 resists...however 9 7% mf charms gives me 63 magic find. Certainly more economical, and that allowed me to load up on my weapon-switch. Personally, I like max resists....not a big fan of dying ;)
     
  17. Ulric

    Ulric IncGamers Member

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    Forget all the analysis. You forget the cool visual effect of having the whole set. That alone is worth more that few hundred extra points of damage.

    Ulric
     
  18. nataku00

    nataku00 IncGamers Member

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    In terms of killing power, tal's set is very comparable, if not better than partial set/hoto/shako. However, most ppl would sub occulus and shako for tal orb/helm for magic find, and in that regard, I'd rather have the magic find since I don't have that many 7% mf sc on ladder :p

    Very well done on the argument though, taking into account of the pros and cons for each set up :clap:
     
  19. dadiXtrema

    dadiXtrema IncGamers Member

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    Eh! the aura gets in the way =D. I personally don't care either way what's happening as long as i can efficently bash and smash (or cast and blow up... your pick) as quickly as I can =). Gooooo

    Occy
    Shako
    Skullders
    Lidless
    arachnids
    soj
    perf nagel ring
    Mara's
    war travs

    :innocent:

    plus its all for fun anyway! "whatever floats your boat" =)
     
  20. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Hmm...just realized I over "um'd" my shield. I could've gotten all max resists from one um in the Headhunters (the big poison and fire on that thing help a lot). Dammit, I could've gone two ists!

    Well, now that I think about it, I should go with two fire facets and an um. That extra -10 fire resists will go a long way...sweet!
     

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