The Survivor Tourney Thread

Hiedran

Diabloii.Net Member
I've hit a bad slate of days and probably won't be able to make any progress until evening (GMT -7) Thursday.

Honestly, Mon-Wed are bad for me every week (for playing) but I'll do my best to be challenging (and beating ;) ) Hrus in A5 by late Friday.

Hopefully in the few kills I'll make I'll be able to find a p.ruby so I can make some blood gloves. CB = :cool:.
 

Hrus

Diabloii.Net Member
Atalanta - meleesin
Frozen Tundra WP

using cold Iron wolf mercenary
Won/Lost: 2/2
Cursed: belt,armor

Well, small update for me, I got to Frozen Tundra and found one really good item, it's sad it will be probably Hiedran's item soon :(. My Maul is quite good , but I have several possibilities to get better one...
I think of my strategy for Ancients, maybe they are not as bad at normal? (I can't remember, because I usually fight with them around lvl 35-38 and they go down with ease.)

I will probably have no time until Sunday either.
 

Hiedran

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm really starting to question the scoring method. I don't mind winning all my challenges vs. Hrus, but I could see it getting old quick if I were on the other side.

Here's two examples of scores (cumulative in parenthesis):

Player 1:
Act I: 4 (96)
Act II: 20 (176)
Act III: 21 (255)
Act IV: 22 (333)
Act V: 24 (409)

Player 2:
Act I: 12 (**)
Act II: 18 (170)
Act III: 19 (251)
Act IV: 20 (331)
Act V: 21 (410)

Despite gaining less overall experience, it takes a lot longer for Player 2 to catch up to Player 1 in score. I don't know if I like risky play in the beginning affecting challenges many acts down the road.

I can see how this wouldn't matter too much in the early tournament because the odds of the same people matching up time and time again are pretty slim. Now that we're down to three people, whoever has the advantage pretty much can keep the advantage.

Of course, maybe Hrus has lower levels than me now and is slowly closing the gap for the score, but only azn knows.

So my thought for a scoring method is to grade on total xp gained through the Act. Whoever gets less xp gets the win. I don't know if that opens room for exploiting the diminishing returns of xp, which is the biggest flaw I can see. (Some player with lots of time on hand could run up the xp gain in one level without killing the boss as to be > 10 levels above the enemies for the next level. A decent place to do this would be Act 4 to prepare for Act 5. On the other hand, being 10 levels above most of the monsters in Act 5 means you'd probably be in the sweet spot for xp gain for the boss.) Thoughts?
 

Hiedran

Diabloii.Net Member
I got lucky and found some time to rush through the act

Slash - Frenzy barb
Waiting for results of Act V challenge

2/2 challenges
Act III Lightning merc


Boy, dancing around all those frenzytaurs was not fun. I'm glad leap has knockback. Same thing can be said for freeing Anya with Frozenstein.

AR was a huge issue vs. Baal but having 50% open wounds helped alleviate some of the pain.

There was one point where I thought I was going to have to go through the Throne again, as Baal's frost wedge somehow managed to make it to where I couldn't move. Clicking on a TP didn't work and neither did trying to Leap. Fortunately Baal hit me with a frost wedge again and the knockback there unfroze me.

It took me two tries to beat the Ancients, with an inventory full of greater healing potions and some mana pots. (All gone by the end of the fight.) Even then I think I survived only because I managed to get Madawac to throw his axes into a pillar instead of me, and my merc managed to survive the second time.

I'm afraid that I may have to seriously level soon. I remember how hard surviving SC NM on Battle.Net was in the pre 1.10 days at these levels, and I don't think it's gotten any easier.
 

azn_apocalypse

Diabloii.Net Member
Good points, Hiedran. I did consider these things in developing the scoring system. Here are my thoughts.

Hiedran said:
Despite gaining less overall experience, it takes a lot longer for Player 2 to catch up to Player 1 in score. I don't know if I like risky play in the beginning affecting challenges many acts down the road.
I disagree. If someone manages, as in your example, to finish Act 1 Normal at Level 4, that is a significant achievement and, IMO, should be rewarded, especially given the risk of death involved. High risk should equal high reward.

Hiedran said:
I can see how this wouldn't matter too much in the early tournament because the odds of the same people matching up time and time again are pretty slim. Now that we're down to three people, whoever has the advantage pretty much can keep the advantage.
I assure you that this is not the case. The total scores are closer than you might think, and the final scoresheet released after the tourney is over will reflect this. Level competitively.

Hiedran said:
So my thought for a scoring method is to grade on total xp gained through the Act. Whoever gets less xp gets the win. I don't know if that opens room for exploiting the diminishing returns of xp, which is the biggest flaw I can see. (Some player with lots of time on hand could run up the xp gain in one level without killing the boss as to be > 10 levels above the enemies for the next level. A decent place to do this would be Act 4 to prepare for Act 5. On the other hand, being 10 levels above most of the monsters in Act 5 means you'd probably be in the sweet spot for xp gain for the boss.) Thoughts?
I thought about using this same scoring system, but decided against it. There's too much room for players (esp caster characters) to take advantage of it by leveling like mad in a single Act (Act 5 would be the most likely place to do this), and only losing one challenge. It would be unfair because they would have characters of very high level that had only been penalized once.

The idea behind my scoring system is to continually penalize players who level above their peers by making them continually lose challenges, no matter what Act they do their leveling in.
 

Hiedran

Diabloii.Net Member
azn_apocalypse said:
Hiedran said:
Despite gaining less overall experience, it takes a lot longer for Player 2 to catch up to Player 1 in score. I don't know if I like risky play in the beginning affecting challenges many acts down the road.
I disagree. If someone manages, as in your example, to finish Act 1 Normal at Level 4, that is a significant achievement and, IMO, should be rewarded, especially given the risk of death involved. High risk should equal high reward.
But shouldn't the non-risky play in Act II be penalized then? Or would gaining 16 levels in one act (as in the example) just be the player deciding to go to a more normal playstyle? (Especially considering how tough Duriel can be. Or was, he seems to be much easier these days.)

I guess there could be three styles of play: Aggressive, Moderate, and Defensive. Playing Aggressive for the first act gains mucho points and then switching to a Moderate playstyle for the rest of the game guarantees coasting for a while. Those who start Defensive (leveling lots) get penalized by losing and making it harder to win challenges even if they switch to an Aggressive playstyle.

azn_apocalypse said:
I thought about using this same scoring system, but decided against it. There's too much room for players (esp caster characters) to take advantage of it by leveling like mad in a single Act (Act 5 would be the most likely place to do this), and only losing one challenge. It would be unfair because they would have characters of very high level that had only been penalized once.
I guess hoping the sliding experience scale would be effective is too much. (Remember, you get full xp if you're +-5 levels of the monster, and it decreases until you get 5% at greater than +-10 levels.) I think it would take a LOT of patience to hit the 95% penalty for being > 10 levels above the monsters, thus making it harder to power level and blow everyone away in all subsequent challenges because of gaining less xp per act.

azn_apocalypse said:
The idea behind my scoring system is to continually penalize players who level above their peers by making them continually lose challenges, no matter what Act they do their leveling in.
This wording threw me off for a bit, but yes, those who get stronger faster continuously pay by getting weaker equipment.

I think the scoring system is pretty fair as is. I'll wait until the spreadsheet comes out before commenting more (or deciding to eat my words.)
 

Cattleya

Diabloii.Net Member
Here's another scoring idea to throw out there. What about using cumulative score + act score for the challange? This still gives points for your overall leveling, but will give extra weight to the current act.

Using Heidran's example:
Code:
Player1

        Level | Act Score | Cumulative Score | Challenge Score | Win or Lose
Act 1   4       96          96                 192               W
Act 2   20      80          176                256               W
Act 3   21      79          255                334               W
Act 4   22      78          333                411               L (Exp)
Act 5   24      76          409                485               L

Player2

Act 1   12      **          **                 176               L
Act 2   18      82          170                252               L
Act 3   19      81          251                332               L
Act 4   20      80          331                411               W (Exp)
Act 5   21      79          410                489               W
This makes it a little easier to catch up, but doesn't allow for power-leveling in one act. It would be easy enough for the moderator (that'll be me!) to set up a spreadsheet to do the calculations. Players will only need to report level and experience, and don't have to worry about the math.

So, what are the opinions on this?

-Cat
 

Gaz

Diabloii.Net Member
@ cattleya. the only thing I can see is that the advantage gained from the previous act doesn't carry through, so in effect it will still be almost as difficult to catch up.

Another possible method would be to multiply the scores by an act modifier. EG Act 1 multiply by 1, act 2 by two, act 1 NM by 6 and so on. Using the above example

Player 1

Act 1 - level 4 - Points 96 cumulative points 96
Act 2 - level 20 - Points 160 cumulative points 256
Act 3 - Level 21 - Points 237 Cumulative points 493
Act 4 - Level 22 - Points 312 Cumulative Points 805
act 5 - Level 24 - Points 380 Cumulative points 1185

Player 2

Act 1 - level 12 - Points ** cumulative points **
Act 2 - level 18 - Points 162 cumulative points 252
Act 3 - Level 19 - Points 243 Cumulative points 496
Act 4 - Level 20 - Points 320 Cumulative Points 815
act 5 - Level 21 - Points 395 Cumulative points 1210


Now this way, The player would still have an advantage for the agressive play style in act 1, but this advantage would not last as long.

Just a though
 

Cattleya

Diabloii.Net Member
Gaz said:
@ cattleya. the only thing I can see is that the advantage gained from the previous act doesn't carry through, so in effect it will still be almost as difficult to catch up.
I wasn't looking to radically change the system from what it currently is. (If that's what people want, your idea is a very good place to start.) I don't have any problem with the scoring system being used in the current tournament, but there has been some concern raised about not getting any credit for doing well in a particular act beyond Act 1.

In my example I was kind of thinking of sticking largely with the cumulative score idea, but giving players a bonus for doing well in the act for which the challenge was being performed. A marriage between using a pure cumulative score system and a pure current act score system. This could be further tweaked by using a multiplier on the "Act Bonus" to make it more or less important. My example uses a modifier of 1, which is easy and seems like as good a place to start as any.

One think to keep in mind is that the reason act 1 seems to get more weight in the cumulative model is because it is the act where one normally gains the most levels. (You would probably see a similar phenomenon in Act 5/Act1 NM if more people survived that long.)

Under your model, the progress made in earlier acts will quickly become unimportant as people progress. (The speed at which this occurs can be changed by tweaking the multipliers.) I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it is just very different from the current scoring system, and will have a more profound effect on strategy.

I think it will come down to how we want to balance the points. So, ultimately it comes down to how people want performance in different acts weighted. I was trying to stay more or less true to the current model, as I think it worked well. (Bias note: opinion being issued by someone who went 5-0 in challenges. ;) )

Hey Azn, this is your baby, what do you think?

(Hiedran's example may also be a little extreme. I'm wondering how close anyone actually got to a level 4 slaughter of Andariel. I guess I'll just have to be patient and wait for the end of the tournament to find out. All I can say to anyone who pulled that off: :worship: )

-Cat
 

Hrus

Diabloii.Net Member
Rules are OK as they are now, also Cattleya's suggestion might be a good improvement.

BTW- why are not challenges evaluated by current lvl/ experience on the end of each act? This would be the simpliest way and not the bad one IMHO.

EDIT: I will have some time tonight, but I am not sure if it will be enough time to complete the act (some preparations have to be made before Ancients).
 

Gaz

Diabloii.Net Member
As I said it was just my thoughts. I think your idea with some sort of weighting on the current act would probably be the best marriage of the two systems. It would probably be best to use some sort of static weighting, like the current act score counts double for the challenge score.

Personally, I enjoyed the current setup, but I would like to know what the strategies of everyone was.

I don't think there was a problem with the scoring system initially, when you weren't guaranteed of coming up against the same person every time. It seems that the main problem has occurred now that there are only 3 people left.

Oh well, whatever setup is decided on I will still play in the next one.
 

Hrus

Diabloii.Net Member
Atalanta - meleesin
Awaiting Act 5 challenge

using cold Iron wolf mercenary
Won/Lost: 2/2
Cursed: belt,armor

Well the Ancients were tough, but they were not as strong as I was afraid. Well only 20 potions drinked. The tough part was killing one of them, the other two went down with ease.
But Baal was ... well strong and very tough, hard to kill, duplicating himself. Well after 10 minutes of glorious battle, he went down... wait, what the hell... he doesn't scream... I have killed only a duplicate. Well the whole battle was like 1 hour long, I was around 30 times at Malah losing around 100k gold only for potions. But Atalanta is victorious. And on pretty low level (at least for me). If I don't win a challenge this time, I will be in a bad mood...
 

azn_apocalypse

Diabloii.Net Member
Act V Challenge -

Hrus (MeleeAssy) vs. Hiedran (Frenzy)

Winner: Hrus
Loser: Hiedran

Good job, Hrus! You have proven that it is possible to make a comeback under the current scoring system. OK, you may curse a slot (I assume you will be wanting to get rid of one of your cursed slots), and for your prize item you have a choice between getting your Nokozan Relic back, or you can choose this instead. It's up to you.

Bitter Casque
Circlet
Defense: 41
Durability: 35 of 35
Required Level: 18
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 22
Fingerprint: 0xb87b8fff
+39 to Life
+33% Enhanced Defense
Lightning Resist +30%
+21 poison damage over 4 seconds
18% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
+2 to Light Radius

Note now that ALL challenges btw the three remaining players will be three-way, until someone dies.
 

azn_apocalypse

Diabloii.Net Member
New score update! All remaining players are now in Act 1 NM, which means they will face off in three-way challenges until someone dies.

Act 1 NM (3)
1. Des SuperSavage (ToXiC) Javazon
2. Des Hrus (Atalanta) Melee
3. Des Hiedran (Slash) Frenzy

Fallen Heroes (16)
4. Des Cattleya (Clyde) Frenzy (Act 1 NM, Conviction Tainted)
5. erimatbrad (Typhus) Rabies (Act 4, Diablo)
6. Bull® (HolyHand) Smiteadin (Act 4, Izual)
7. barren (OMG_barrenhax) FireboltSorc (Durance 2, Dbl Boss Pack of Vampires)
8. Illiana (CursedCorina) Javazon (Act 2, Duriel @ Lvl 16))
9. Gabriel74 (Vision) Vengeance (Act 2, Duriel @ Lvl 17))
10. Starving_Poet (Sob-atual) Mojomancer (Maggot Lair, Beetles)
11. Gaz (Moron) Conc (Arcane, Spectres)
12. simeonb (Marcus) Lightning (Rocky Waste, LE Sabre Cat)
13. Online (Meskinas) Werebear (Severe Inactivity)
14. Aersik (Teimis) Ranger (Cat Lvl 3, Rat Men)
15. Davemetalhead (Stryker) Conc (Jail Lvl 2, Pittspawn Fouldog)
16. Bwask (ColdShoulder) Blizz/ES (Jail Lvl 1, Surrounded by ?)
17. ricrestoni (LadySpark) CL/ES (Barracks, Archers)
18. Drakon (CaptainRandom) FoH (Quit tourney)
19. xxarcherxx (Adrienne-Sun) Bowazon (Severe Inactivity)
 

Hrus

Diabloii.Net Member
I have sent my cursed armor to Hiedran back.
Defense: 74
Durability: 28 of 45
Required Strength: 48
Required Level: 13
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 28
Fingerprint: 0x241e30a0
+5 to Life
Fire Resist +27%

EDIT: Requesting that nice circlet
 

azn_apocalypse

Diabloii.Net Member
Cattleya said:
I wasn't looking to radically change the system from what it currently is. (If that's what people want, your idea is a very good place to start.) I don't have any problem with the scoring system being used in the current tournament, but there has been some concern raised about not getting any credit for doing well in a particular act beyond Act 1.
Hrus's example shows that credit is given beyond Act 1, well-beyond it as a matter of fact. Even after losing 2 straight challenges he was able to come back and win the Act 5 Challenge. Had more players survived Acts 1 and 2 Normal, you probably would have seen more comebacks like that, where someone can turn the tables and win by leveling competitively in later Acts. I think the current scoring system works...but there is definitely room for change (for the next tourney), as the majority of players see fit.

Cattleya said:
In my example I was kind of thinking of sticking largely with the cumulative score idea, but giving players a bonus for doing well in the act for which the challenge was being performed. A marriage between using a pure cumulative score system and a pure current act score system. This could be further tweaked by using a multiplier on the "Act Bonus" to make it more or less important. My example uses a modifier of 1, which is easy and seems like as good a place to start as any.
I like your proposed two-prong scoring system. I vote that in the next tourney (which I plan to participate in), we use something based around that system. It would be nice to have a bit of variety and I'm sure many of us are interested in seeing how a different scoring system would affect the results.

Cattleya said:
I think it will come down to how we want to balance the points. So, ultimately it comes down to how people want performance in different acts weighted. I was trying to stay more or less true to the current model, as I think it worked well. (Bias note: opinion being issued by someone who went 5-0 in challenges. ;) )

Hey Azn, this is your baby, what do you think?
I propose that future scoring systems give equal weight to performance in each Act. The "multiplier," in other words, should be 1. It's just too easy for someone to do tons of leveling in a lower-weighted Act, then use the levels gained to breeze through a higher-weighted Act while not killing as many monsters. This strategy would be too predictable.

Cattleya said:
(Hiedran's example may also be a little extreme. I'm wondering how close anyone actually got to a level 4 slaughter of Andariel. I guess I'll just have to be patient and wait for the end of the tournament to find out. All I can say to anyone who pulled that off: :worship: )
Nobody pulled an actual _level 4_ off, at least in this tourney. I can safely say that because since no one did it, I'm not revealing any player information. I would also :worship: anyone who managed to do it.
 

Hiedran

Diabloii.Net Member
Hrus said:
I have sent my cursed armor to Hiedran back.
Defense: 74
Durability: 28 of 45
Required Strength: 48
Required Level: 13
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 28
Fingerprint: 0x241e30a0
+5 to Life
Fire Resist +27%

EDIT: Requesting that nice circlet
Oof, that completelly messes up my armor scheme. At least it frees me up to use a belt with four rows. (I was using Arctic Furs + Binding.)

I'm glad Anya gave me a decent helm for completing her quest (to make up for the loss of that nice circlet), but no staffmods on it.

Item received, item sent.

Good luck Savage & Hrus!
 

Hrus

Diabloii.Net Member
Hiedran said:
Oof, that completelly messes up my armor scheme. At least it frees me up to use a belt with four rows. (I was using Arctic Furs + Binding.)

I'm glad Anya gave me a decent helm for completing her quest (to make up for the loss of that nice circlet), but no staffmods on it.

Item received, item sent.

Good luck Savage & Hrus!
Enjoy your 4 rows of potions (well for an act :D )
Item received.
Good luck Hiedran and SuperSavage.
I will come with an update on sunday.
 
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