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The SPF I know

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by helvete, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. helvete

    helvete Diabloii.Net Member

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    (freely quoted [often without quotation marks, so you *need* to reference the OP] from Thyiad's post here, which, conveniently, doesn't allow for counter arguments)

    Times have changed here, and for the better. More knowledge is being discovered by the day. Items which are more troublesome to get, yet almost as powerful as the items blizz keeps SPers from having (torch, anni), are making their appearance, and they have been for a long time.

    The SPF has always been odd builds, insane numbers of Guardians, naked Guardians, odd tournaments... and a source of information... on a few 3rd party programs, all of which DO change the game from "vanilla" to "something more convenient". We cracked the game code. To allow for muling to be done, without losing our maps. We cracked the game code, to allow for runewords only allowed on the realm ladder, to be used in SP. We cracked the game code to allow multiple instances of d2 to run on the same computer, without creating multiple users in windows. We even allowed items to be made indestructible, by use of one allowed 3rd party program. Which caused some controversy.

    We used to push the envelope to do weird stuff, now we just seem to want to abuse the game code to do things which were not intended... Or were they...? All we have is the patch notes. I've never seen blizz comment on a +37mpk ring (which is commonly allowed around here), nor ANY other bug which involves their own game creating OP items under ANY circumstance. They have also never uttered a single word about SP getting any new content; not even the runewords we've all come to know and love. After around 5 patches, they're still not added in. 1.14, and no "Insight"? Well, it must be a slight oversight on their end. However, it's been even more patches since classic, and they decided NOT to keep the game code from 1.07 through 1.09 which kept classic rares from doubling up on stats.

    Then, I read this, coming from perhaps the most important person on this forum:
    "For example the recent little gag of bringing early version stuff into a specific version to make "impossible" items. Why don't you just hack the item; it has the same result. This isn't an "oops we didn't know" like the ATMA bug, this is deliberate abuse. This forum has never been the place for that."

    This was possible the entire time, by no affiliation with ANY 3rd party software, not even Windows. Its only "recent" quality is that it is news to many people here. The term "impossible" is hypocrisy in a forum where the term "ATMA-bugged" is common. Who is hacking an item? And, yes, by the way.... By these twisted standards, ANY item or character, having been patched at some point, is tainted. However, muling, with no loss of map information, is totally OK. Even if this should be the same for battle.net and SP. Muling in SP, without loss of map information, and no 3rd party programs goes something like this:

    Muling off only:
    - write protect save files in OS
    - create game with said character and drop items to be muled
    - use another computer, or another user on the same computer to join that game, and pick items
    - exit mule
    - exit main character; then disable write protection
    - remake game with main character, drop all the same items as before, then exit.

    Muling on:
    - impossible

    To answer the hacking thing: This still isn't hacking. ATMA and GoMule, RWM and RRM... they're each more "hacking" than it is to open an old save in a newer version. Actually, to do the "hybrid classic rare" thing, you ONLY need D2 (and some OS which will run it; usually windows).

    About the hack/crack beta thing, I won't relate to that, as I agree that any usable file here should require ownership of the game. Which doesn't include beta versions. The patches, however, are hosted by blizz, and I will NOT agree that those older patches aren't a part of the single player experience.

    "When did the SPF start to think like this? I know the game is old, lots have been done but there has to be something more than that. "

    We've always thought like this. If something is too much for any certain member, or group(s) of member(s), there have always been ways around this:
    - Correct and updated trade profile
    - Don't trade at all (my personal preference; we call it Single Player after all....)
    - Limitations on trade (such as ban on pre-LOD items, 1 only racked 1.07 or 1.08 unique... these could very easily be expanded)
    - Scroll past any post you feel sickened by. This applies to the entire internet; not just item find threads.

    For the closing of this post, I'll make apologies to whomever feels that this hits them personally. If it does, it is not intended. Not even the picking apart of the quotes is directed at the person; but rather at the position.

    However, a lot of people need a wake up call, about what is game code and what is not. And that this might not be about how far we are willing to go, but about how we already went too far.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  2. ioupainmax

    ioupainmax Diabloii.Net Member

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    I think it is important to reiterate that it is just a game...people are here to have fun.

    Despite how some people may feel, I still think there is a lot of integrity in this forum.

    Going back to a previous patch has it's own drawbacks and benefits, why shouldn't those people be rewarded for their time/effort?
     
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  3. helvete

    helvete Diabloii.Net Member

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    ...and it is a LOT more hassle than to obtain some keys from supposedly difficult targets, or be lucky enough to be at one out of about 200 IP addresses exactly when some other cheaters decide to do the actual cheat.

    Even the rare forwarding, henceforth known as "hybrid rares", for their ability to pick from two "different but the same" affix tables.... The odds to get something good are low. Very low. The odds to get something game-breaking is worse than a pre 1-13 Lo rune. Or thereabouts.

    The haters just need to bring their own 1.00 character to lvl 90 to see.
     
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  4. darkstarhub

    darkstarhub Diabloii.Net Member

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    IMO, there is a fairly limited amount of alterations to the game that are FAM. I like this, and it is one of the reasons I have always loved this site. As I see it, playing single player offline should grant you access to everything in the game. Blizzard does not believe in this philosophy, so we are lucky enough to have a legitimate way to work around that for most parts of the game.

    I really dont see the problem if somebody wants to go back to a previous patch to bring something forward. Besides, this being single player, and that is the key to the whole argument, it is the individuals game to play as they see fit. This being such an old game, and the long time players pretty much doing everything possible in said game, time traveling simply adds something more to attain. I love the items in this game, and to have a slightly different, non game breaking version of a certain item is just part of collecting all the gear that is possible to get.

    While some of those items could be considered "impossible", they are not crazy enough for me to go through everything to get them at this point. None of them are needed at all to be successful in the game; they are simply something different to attain.
     
  5. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    It is good to see this open for debate. The forums here are still very much alive and kicking. In the 7 months I came back, I've seen numerous people coming back as well. Both new and old. Different builds, tourneys, guardians, etc. are being posted every day. So I don't see how the forums "used to be" but no longer are. We still have loads of stuff to squeeze from this 17 year old game, be it through playing or examining code.

    Time travel is a subject of controversy because you can "exploit" something which wasn't known at the time or intended to be a limited duration. The hybrid rare thing is something nobody would have known, but it's also Blizzard's fault for breaking it when it worked in previous patches. That is how it is in SP though. We have the choice to go back, whether it is preference or taking on a challenge for the reward. Old patches extend the life of the game. Sure, some items like 08 valor and hybrid rares are a little cheesy, but at least we worked for them and had fun playing the game!

    Regarding the LOD beta. If no one figured it out by now it was me who sent Thyiad that message. Now I got over my head in thinking we could host it since the game is nearly abandonware. At the same time however, I don't think it was necessary to have a rant about it in a locked topic. Especially after I made a suggestion which would allow the community to play the beta without having to download copyrighted material. The whole purpose is not to steal blizzard's game, it was to help extend the life of it and get people interested in another old patch.

    Regardless if bugs bring us joy, it is doing it's job as a video game of keeping us entertained. It will do so for years to come!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  6. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen Diabloii.Net Member

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    I don't think there is anything wrong with playing older patches and getting odd items. Where our opinions differ is when said items are brought forward to newer versions. That to me is equivalent to cheating.

    And using the argument: "Blizzard created this patch - thus they intended such items to be possible." to defend time travel. I mean come on people. By that same logic Blizzard also created later patches to disallow 'impossible' items - in fact the very version you are planning on using the items in, dosen't allow them.

    That's my $0.02 on the matter. I completely agree with Thiyad - this should not be what the SPF is about.

    Using a 3rd party application, to create an item that isn't supposed to spawn in a patch, is what you would (and should) all consider cheating. But when such an items is farmed from an older version it's suddenly legit. Not in my book!

    /endrant
     
  7. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen Diabloii.Net Member

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    (Sorry for double post - felt the need to comment on this in particular after a second read of the op).

    I don't think a single person would mind if you had an old untwinked character in 1.0x and brought him forward to 1.14.
    The problem (to me at least) arises when you use 3rd party programs to switch versions and mule off items. This allows for highly twinked characters exploiting map-seeds (like cow-king spawning) etc. to farm and forward items on an industri scale level.
     
  8. darkstarhub

    darkstarhub Diabloii.Net Member

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    @ThomasJohnsen i can also see your point man. On the realms it's more or less impossible to do the time traveling thing to get older items like The Harley and Arkaine's with the huge life bonuses to bring forward. Maybe if you have a really old set of characters on an account you played way back then, had those items, and started playing again? I don't even know if that's possible.

    But, there are people who really enjoy going back and playing older versions for their own reasons. Some people like the challenge while others are specifically looking for items, whether it's for bragging rights or simply to make others jealous. I have to be honest and say I am a little jealous of items like the old Harley with the 40% life bonus. Jealous in a good way of course.

    I loved vanilla D3 with the Critical Mass SNS Wizard and running a prepped Crypt with a Firebats WD and a couple pulll Monks. That's impossible now and that play style gone forever. We get to do that with D2 because we are not bound to the newest patch.
     
  9. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    The following is in reply to a posting in a different thread:

    Perhaps helvete should have just have mentioned it without telling how to do it, but by quoting him, he cannot undo that himself anymore.

    You can also skip L1-29 with just the game itself (I'm not telling how, but it should be trivial to find it out) which is certainly a more convenient short route. That's not allowed here, but you can do that with just the game, so in my opinion it's cheating to a lesser extent than abusing ATMA issues like the bug about indestructible ethereal weapons.

    ATMA isn't maintained anymore for a couple of years now, so maybe it's time to ban it from here because of unfixed bugs that can be abused for cheating? I think that won't work well because so many old threads are mentioning it. Apart from that, you can easily dupe with ATMA and I don't think you even have to explain how.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  10. Grape

    Grape Diabloii.Net Member

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    What I like about SPF is that (for the most part) people here don't call each others cheaters as long as one is playing according to the forum rules. As long as I know, bringing stuff forward has been part of this forum for a long long time. You don't have to participate yourself if you don't like.

    Anything but Vanilla is "cheating", isn't it? The rest were added so we could enjoy this game more. If it wasn't for Atma, GoMule (maybe RWM) I'd be long gone. Now playing older patches and bringing some items forward for making even more fun characters has prolonged the D2 experience for me :)

    Thanks @helvete for opening the thread, something similar crossed my mind when @Thyiad posted that thread, but there was no space to answer, which was kind of weird to say the least.

    If that thread was open, maybe my answers would have been something along these lines:

    That what SPF was and still is. It is and has also been a very nice place to venture into earlier patches because people around here have long since shared information about them, helped others to get into them. Shared builds, crafting recipes all kind of tips in general.

    Venturing to any earlier patch, has a side effect. You will come across with a LOTS of stuff that WAS NOT intended. That's what many patches were about (apart from more content), fixing those issues. Sorry Thy, I will continue to abuse the not intended 25 FPS WW with my 1.00 Barb.

    Why don't you just hack the grail and the 99 character? The fun is in the challenge. I'm sure you understand.

    For a forum that has never been a place for abusing the little quirks of time traveling, I found it a bit strange there is a ten year old thread which has A LOT of posts asking how the get a bugged MPK ring or how to get those impossible crafts. I'm talking about the 1.07 gossip thread of course. I don't know how these pre-lod -> lod hybrid rares are more of an issue. Maybe that should have been open to a debate? :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
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  11. helvete

    helvete Diabloii.Net Member

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    Well, in the same breath where I apologize for the red wine post, I have to say that there are rules and guidelines here which are followed, but are nevertheless outdated.

    As I see it, this all comes down to division of the trade pool. As I don't trade, it's not a problem for me personally. But I still feel you. Perhaps some sort of guild setup could be done for those who want untainted items. I still (despite my time travelling) keep all 1.13 stuff separate. It's not that hard.

    @krischan Actually, you get lvl 33 by doing that thing. It is mentioned how to do that in the rules, and has been for as long as I can remember. Duping isn't an ATMA only thing, it's easy to do as well, with just the OS and the game. However, these are clearly defined rules, which makes it that much easier. Don't do that. It's clear and simple. However, about time travel, we've allowed items from older patches for just about as long as the paches have existed. That some new bug or exploit is discovered is irrelevant, as long as it is still within the rules at the given time.

    At any rate, we'll need more rules and guidelines. (this is where @Thyiad should be alerted). My proposal is that we simply create a purist trade pool for each patch, which doesn't allow time travel. Then we keep the old "vanilla" and "FAM" trade pools as is. Exceptions probably need to be made for those who already both trade and time travel. Which should be around 2 people by my count.

    Still not an issue for me, as I don't trade, and likely never will. But that's my suggestion to keep the trading part of this community going. Want to trade in 1.14? Don't interact with 1.00, 1.07 or 1.10 or any other patch. New patch arriving? Start over. Or stay in the previous patch. Or join the old, let's call them "non ladder" trade pools for lack of a better term.

    Vagueness in the rules/guidelines is what makes for so many "eye of the beholder" posts around here. Maybe it's time for a major revision, instead of putting out small fires with water pistols every day.
     
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  12. necrolemming

    necrolemming Diabloii.Net Member

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    I don't think it'd be such a problem if Thyiad were around and engaged in discussion regarding issues cropping up, but when she's only around once a month and only for long enough to post some passive-aggressive statements about how people aren't behaving according to expectations, it's not exactly easy to make progress.
     
  13. helvete

    helvete Diabloii.Net Member

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    Still, we're all grownups here. (I think). Her absence hasn't caused much trouble. We should probably have a second mod here, though. This is where most of the action regarding d2 is.

    The underlying problem is still vagueness in the rulebook. Nowhere does it say that bringing any item forward is illegal. It DOES say that pre-LOD items cannot be traded. Clear and simple, like I want it. But putting a ban on time travel as a whole? Not likely. Could make a specification stating that any pre-LOD item must travel forward via 1.07, 1.08 or 1.09, which doesn't have the issue. A bit boring for my taste, but certainly viable.
     
  14. T72on1

    T72on1 Diabloii.Net Member

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    I must say I'm very happy that this thread is here. Back when @Thyiad made her post, I didn't understand why she'd do so, and then lock it. One of the key things about 'good' forums is that they allow for constructive criticism and discussion, and that post could have been and should have been the start for that.

    I like the rules as they are here. They are one of the reasons I joined in the first place. Problem is that you'll always have that thin line, a grey area about what is acceptable and what not.

    For example I understand why GoMule is allowed, and without it, I probably would have been long gone by now, but I understand @ThomasJohnsen not agreeing with what @helvete mentions. In my book that's not using an external program for what we allow it for, but abusing it to do more. Small caveat: I have actually done this myself, equiping level 2 - 6 items, but only to save space and already have them on me, as getting from 1 - 6 is a matter of minutes. I thought that the items wouldn't actually be useable for your character and as such the stats wouldn't count. I'll have to do that differently next time.

    You could also argue about time traveling. Yes, Blizzard made patches, you can play them. But normally, if you play a certain patch and Blizzard releases a next patch, your character just gets forwarded to that patch, one at a time. As I understand time traveling and the reasons people are doing it, you forward from one specific patch to another specific patch, just because of the side-effects of that move, one could not be intended by Blizzard at the time, as they were only looking into what getting characters from a certain patch to the next one would do and taking that into account. Now I might as well understand time travelling the wrong way of course ... Having said all of that, I have done some minor 1.07 a few years back, way before I started over again. From that I'd say that it takes a lot of patience and effort playing those patches before you even get the benefits from it. So you could take that into the discussion about time traveling as well.

    One thing I have never really understood why the atma bug is still allowed. Don't get me wrong, in the recent year alone the discussion has been brought up again a few times, so I know the reasoning behind it: 'we didn't know at the time, and by the time we found out, there were too many bugged items already. It would have been unfair to ban those or ask people to start over again, so we allowed it'. I understand why they were allowed to keep them at the time, because of that reasoning. But now that we know for so long? I think we shouldn't be allowed, as it's plain and simple an external program abuse giving us an edge. So we shouldn't be allowed to do it. Should we be jealous at the people who did it before the bug was discovered and who still have those items? I don't think so. But that's my opinion on that specific subject.

    One more thing is that I don't ever agree with the argument that 'it's SP, so it doesn't matter much and people should do what they want to do'. Sure that is true if you just keep it to yourself, but we are here to talk about, show off, discuss about those SP games and items, aren't we? In that respect it matters, even if it's SP. After all it's also because of that reason that we don't allow people to post the items they find in the IFT when they did so using forbidden programs.

    So yeah, I'm afraid I don't have that much to add, but I definitely think it's a good idea to have this discussion, and maybe as a consequence change the rules somewhat.
     
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  15. jiansonz

    jiansonz Diabloii.Net Member

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    I've used ATMA for a long time, and I do not know about any bug (other than the fact that you can see what an item is without having identified it in-game). What is it? Is is something I need to be aware of so I don't "bug" any items by mistake?
     
  16. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape Diabloii.Net Member

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    There is an unintended bug in ATMA that makes the Indestructible mod stick to an item after the runes are removed. There may be other related bugs but that is the big one that everyone exploits to make ebugged superweapons.

    EDIT: maybe "everyone" is a bit heavy handed. "A lot of players" how's that.
     
  17. jiansonz

    jiansonz Diabloii.Net Member

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    Ah, OK, I found some more info. So as long as I don't move (temporarily) ethereal indestructible weapons within ATMA, I'm good.
    (I think the only time it could ever had happen is when I made an Oath weapon, but I had no plans to do anything else with it. Don't remember if the base weapon was even ethereal either).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  18. PandadudeSP

    PandadudeSP Diabloii.Net Member

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    Fixed map seeds and atma/gomule stashes probably give the biggest advantages compared to battle-net play (on the other hand they have botters and dupers flooding the economy lol).

    Once atma/gomule was permitted, we were indeed cheating, and this continued with the introduction of RWM. There has been some more slippery sloping with eth-bugging and time-traveling, two things I personally don't care to do, but don't mind reading about.

    Now it is just a matter of consent, e.g. x is allowed, y is not allowed, z should be stated in the trading profile. It is too late to be purists.
     
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  19. BKC

    BKC Diabloii.Net Member

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    To be honest this is the SPF i know... open for debate and eventually someone puts a stop to the debate and there is a decision made how to move forward. i can support all the suggestions @helvete made about time travelling pools and keeping other things as they are. I know how much effort goes into a 1.0 classic character espessially if you want to reach level 90 with that (see it as a sept of 99's)

    However it will never affect me simply because if i wanted to trade i would have sticked to the online community. I was a very active trader there and i really liked it. Joining the Gauss channel, playing hardcore and now playing single player made me realise there are other aspects to the game i really like (time travelling is one of them). Enjoying the game with fellow enjoyers is what i like most :)

    Just my 27 cents, evolving means changing... for the better or the worse? One can only tell when time passes by
     
  20. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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    The way I see it is that each of us paid for a license of the game and we should each decide how we want to enjoy that game. Especially if it's on Single Player. If a person wants to use hacks, mods, etc and they aren't affecting anyone else, then they should be allowed to.. to clarify, that doesn't mean they can trade, that just means that if on their own computer they want to play Single Player that way, who are we to stop them? When a single player person wants to interact with the community in a way that affects them, there are already rules that we have in place for that (Vanilla vs FAM trade pools, declaration of mods, etc), each individual person can decide whether or not they want to trade/play with them. I am a curious person and am coming from an engineering background, which for better or worse influences my decisions: the creations of Bliss Version Switcher and Singling are two of my contributions to the community.. Singling alone is literally the same thing the SPF has always had but I just consolidated everything and ran every Singling "mod/feature" through the moderators before making it easily available to the community. The "Bliss Complete Collection" consolidated every patch already extracted so that anyone can switch to any version in BVS pretty much by just dropping in the zip file in their D2 directory. I'm not going to tell people how "I" want them to play their game after they extracted those files, the decision is up to them.

    One of the reasons I have been playing D2 for over 12 years is exactly because I can still open up the game, reverse engineer it, change it, and learn from it. I'm not going to force my beliefs on another person, especially if the other person is enjoying their own copy of the game that has no affect on me at all. I don't even trade in the SPF because I don't even play vanilla or FAM stuff.. My own personal mod to the game changes the game so that /players 8 is always enabled but the monsters HP doesn't increase.. So basically you get /players 8 EXP and /players 8 item drop amounts, but without the consequence of increase HP. For me this modification makes sense since I am playing Single Player, it doesn't make sense to increase the difficulty of killing the monsters when there is really only 1 player in the game. This is definitely not considered FAM, and people will disagree with it, but that is fine. For me personally, that's how I envision D2. The game is basically the same for me as it is for anyone else, with the added caveat that I expedited the leveling process. The item hunting, char development, etc is exactly the same. That's my decision, I don't need to trade with people, but I do like to read people's ideas on the forums. That is perfectly fine.

    Time Traveling stuff... I don't personally do it because it's a time investment. But these are built in game mechanisms. I can see how time traveling stuff from 1.07 specifically to 1.14 can cause issues for some people, but just don't do it if you don't like it. If the forum really wants to you can add a rule that to trade you need to manually forward the item through each intermediate version. But I don't see how this can be enforced if the person opts out of trading.. and I think that might be one of the reasons why people opt-out of trading in the first place, too many rules, way too many beliefs/people being picky on what they consider "valid/legit". "Oh you farmed that item in a legitimate way through the game without using a character editor to create it? That's cool but you opened your character from 1.07 in 1.14 so I'm not gonna trade with you. Sorry"... Also, if a person wants to play 1.07 or any other version and get items that are considered OP in a future patch, why shouldn't they be allowed to do that? It's a legit patch, official by Blizzard, and released. Sure Blizzard could have changed their mind, but that is irrelevant. The point is that it's in the patch, it can be used, and if the person wants to do that (And isn't morally against doing it), they should personally on their own playthrough of the game, in single player, be allowed to do that. _You_ personally don't have to do it if you don't want to. But you can't say that it isn't a legit game feature. Should 1.09 players not take advantage of the lack of blocking quests in that patch when they want to rush characters? I'm sure some people will say "If you want to rush characters that will be used in 1.14, then you should do the blocking quests in 1.14 as well, not bypass them in 1.09 and then rush them in 1.14".. but what you are forgetting is that the person legitimately decided to restart their Diablo II history in 1.09 completely in order for them to build a new foundation so that they could even do this. Not everyone is willing to restart on a new patch completely. They should be allowed to reap these rewards. There is more I can say about this but this specific section has grown big enough.

    ATMA bug definitely should be banned. You can't reproduce that in the game normally so that should be considered a cheat just as if I had open my character in a character editor and manually changed the property to be indestructible. Back in the day, this rule should have been automatically implemented - If there are people that already have the bugged items, they should be prevented from trading those items so that they don't spread - (Think soulbound items). It might be difficult to stop them from being created since people are still allowed to use ATMA.. but there are things in ATMA that we can still exploit (seed/recovering maps), but people aren't allowed to do that even if they do have the seed number.

    Overall, what I'm trying to say is that each person should be allowed to do what they want on their own personal computers if it doesn't affect anyone else. We all paid for the game, we should be able to enjoy the game the way we want to. Every person extracts something different from the game, we obviously all love the game, but with that said we love the game for similar and also different reasons.

    * I know the goal for a while for the trade pool set up we currently have has been to keep as much of the community in the pool as possible without further subdivisions, but it seems it isn't working giving people's responses. As someone said before, maybe it should be further divided into purist/vanilla pools for each version, and fam as well, and forbid time travelled items from being moved from one version to another (Optionally block items being moved from 1.07 -> 1.14 directly and make it so that people need to move the characters through each version - I'm not in favor of this but I don't trade so ..).
     

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