(freely quoted [often without quotation marks, so you *need* to reference the OP] from Thyiad's post here, which, conveniently, doesn't allow for counter arguments) Times have changed here, and for the better. More knowledge is being discovered by the day. Items which are more troublesome to get, yet almost as powerful as the items blizz keeps SPers from having (torch, anni), are making their appearance, and they have been for a long time. The SPF has always been odd builds, insane numbers of Guardians, naked Guardians, odd tournaments... and a source of information... on a few 3rd party programs, all of which DO change the game from "vanilla" to "something more convenient". We cracked the game code. To allow for muling to be done, without losing our maps. We cracked the game code, to allow for runewords only allowed on the realm ladder, to be used in SP. We cracked the game code to allow multiple instances of d2 to run on the same computer, without creating multiple users in windows. We even allowed items to be made indestructible, by use of one allowed 3rd party program. Which caused some controversy. We used to push the envelope to do weird stuff, now we just seem to want to abuse the game code to do things which were not intended... Or were they...? All we have is the patch notes. I've never seen blizz comment on a +37mpk ring (which is commonly allowed around here), nor ANY other bug which involves their own game creating OP items under ANY circumstance. They have also never uttered a single word about SP getting any new content; not even the runewords we've all come to know and love. After around 5 patches, they're still not added in. 1.14, and no "Insight"? Well, it must be a slight oversight on their end. However, it's been even more patches since classic, and they decided NOT to keep the game code from 1.07 through 1.09 which kept classic rares from doubling up on stats. Then, I read this, coming from perhaps the most important person on this forum: "For example the recent little gag of bringing early version stuff into a specific version to make "impossible" items. Why don't you just hack the item; it has the same result. This isn't an "oops we didn't know" like the ATMA bug, this is deliberate abuse. This forum has never been the place for that." This was possible the entire time, by no affiliation with ANY 3rd party software, not even Windows. Its only "recent" quality is that it is news to many people here. The term "impossible" is hypocrisy in a forum where the term "ATMA-bugged" is common. Who is hacking an item? And, yes, by the way.... By these twisted standards, ANY item or character, having been patched at some point, is tainted. However, muling, with no loss of map information, is totally OK. Even if this should be the same for battle.net and SP. Muling in SP, without loss of map information, and no 3rd party programs goes something like this: Muling off only: - write protect save files in OS - create game with said character and drop items to be muled - use another computer, or another user on the same computer to join that game, and pick items - exit mule - exit main character; then disable write protection - remake game with main character, drop all the same items as before, then exit. Muling on: - impossible To answer the hacking thing: This still isn't hacking. ATMA and GoMule, RWM and RRM... they're each more "hacking" than it is to open an old save in a newer version. Actually, to do the "hybrid classic rare" thing, you ONLY need D2 (and some OS which will run it; usually windows). About the hack/crack beta thing, I won't relate to that, as I agree that any usable file here should require ownership of the game. Which doesn't include beta versions. The patches, however, are hosted by blizz, and I will NOT agree that those older patches aren't a part of the single player experience. "When did the SPF start to think like this? I know the game is old, lots have been done but there has to be something more than that. " We've always thought like this. If something is too much for any certain member, or group(s) of member(s), there have always been ways around this: - Correct and updated trade profile - Don't trade at all (my personal preference; we call it Single Player after all....) - Limitations on trade (such as ban on pre-LOD items, 1 only racked 1.07 or 1.08 unique... these could very easily be expanded) - Scroll past any post you feel sickened by. This applies to the entire internet; not just item find threads. For the closing of this post, I'll make apologies to whomever feels that this hits them personally. If it does, it is not intended. Not even the picking apart of the quotes is directed at the person; but rather at the position. However, a lot of people need a wake up call, about what is game code and what is not. And that this might not be about how far we are willing to go, but about how we already went too far.