the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

fromtheshadow

Diabloii.Net Member
the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

I read all three of the novels and I got to say, It was terrible. first it totally contradicts some of the seemingly already established things in diablo lore. for instance in the novels, it is said that angels are not actually good, and that they are in many ways as dangerous as demons to humans. this contradicts all of what D1 and D2 show of angels. there is mention of light and so on in both games and they are quite clearly references to angels and heaven and the goodness of them. all the angels in D2 are helpful to humans. izual, tyrael, and hadriel are all clearly pro human in the game. another example is the D2 lord of destruction intro where the human guy says we are on the side of light!!

It's true the angels might not be extremely concerned with human in diablo universe and are at least for the most part non interventionists. but that doesn't translate into them hating humans like the novel implies.

another lameness is that the novels says that humans are half demon/half angel. once again non of the games made such a claim. it was implied in the games that hell and heaven and their respective demons and angels were the elements of the duality of the universe not an actual other realm or planet. in other words humans and the normal world where good and bad things were not separate and heaven and hell are the separation of the good and bad of the universe. Diablo or mephisto weren't just monsters but were in fact the whole of terror or hatred in the universe personified, they were spirits and elements of the world. and that's why in game they always take hold of a human host.
at the same time humans are just humans biological animals who also contain elements of demons and angels, aka humans are good and bad. there was no ridiculous notion in the games that angels and demons actually mated to create humans

and don't get me started with the nephalem bull****, talk about taking out the whole mood of the universe where humans are supposed weaker beings than demons and angels and turning humans to superheros.:thumbsdown:

I hope blizzard ignores the sin wars novels cause if they don't the story will suffer.
 

FriskyDingo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

I don't know where people got the notion that Blizzard has good lore because they really didnt.

They make good games, but the lore to those games really.. really sucks.

LOLBUT I LOVE HER *SAVES BILLION + MURDERING WOMAN*
 

fromtheshadow

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

I don't know where people got the notion that Blizzard has good lore because they really didnt.

They make good games, but the lore to those games really.. really sucks.

LOLBUT I LOVE HER *SAVES BILLION + MURDERING WOMAN*
I think they had well crafted stories to fit the game. it might have not been a great story alone(not very deep story at all) but it had a good moody atmosphere, but the current way they are going with this novel will destroy the atmosphere.


 

The Rockman

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

I read all three of the novels and I got to say, It was terrible. first it totally contradicts some of the seemingly already established things in diablo lore. for instance in the novels, it is said that angels are not actually good, and that they are in many ways as dangerous as demons to humans. this contradicts all of what D1 and D2 show of angels. there is mention of light and so on in both games and they are quite clearly references to angels and heaven and the goodness of them. all the angels in D2 are helpful to humans. izual, tyrael, and hadriel are all clearly pro human in the game. another example is the D2 lord of destruction intro where the human guy says we are on the side of light!!
Lets see for starters Izual is a Fallen angel who on his death says:
"Tyrael was a fool to have trusted me!
You see, it was I who told Diablo and his Brothers about the Soulstones and how to corrupt them. It was I who helped the Prime Evils mastermind their own exile to your world.
The plan we set in motion so long ago cannot be stopped by any mortal agency. Hell, itself, is poised to spill forth into your world like a tidal wave of blood and nightmares.
You and all your kind . . . are doomed."
So he not a friendly angel at all, so what about Hadriel? He just there to warn the hero to destroy the soul stone before fighting Diablo, he don't even attack any demons.
The only one who really friendly is Tyrael.

As for the rest Umm the games are non committed either way really.
As for this
don't get me started with the nephalem bull****, talk about taking out the whole mood of the universe where humans are supposed weaker beings than demons and angels and turning humans to superheros."
Then how come 1 human hero defeat the 3 Prime Evils then? And that IN GAME LORE. Come to that how can even 8 humans even hurt one of Prime Evils let alone defeat them? Unless there something special about them.


 

Highlen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

I don't know where people got the notion that Blizzard has good lore because they really didnt.

They make good games, but the lore to those games really.. really sucks.

LOLBUT I LOVE HER *SAVES BILLION + MURDERING WOMAN*

I always thought the same thing blizz always made good games when it came to game play but there lore always has been weak.


 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

I know why you don't like it. You have almost all of it backwards and / or had a terrible grasp of Diablo related lore. Some examples:

for instance in the novels, it is said that angels are not actually good, and that they are in many ways as dangerous as demons to humans. this contradicts all of what D1 and D2 show of angels.
The novels say only Tyrael is "good" to us. That is exactly what the game says. The rest of the angels (Archangels specifically) are either indifferent or want us dead. Inarius, who wanted us to thrive, still wanted a world purely of order, which is stifling to humans. We can't exist in that world.


The books flawlessly follow everything we'd known before hand in this regard.


there is mention of light and so on in both games and they are quite clearly references to angels and heaven and the goodness of them. all the angels in D2 are helpful to humans. izual, tyrael, and hadriel are all clearly pro human in the game. another example is the D2 lord of destruction intro where the human guy says we are on the side of light!!
"The Light" refers to the Zakarum church's focus. They worship the holy light and angels and such. That church was formed by an Angel.

Of the angels you list, only Tyrael is pro human. Hadriel is indifferent, and Izual wants us all dead. That is not very pro human at all.


Also, one guy says he's on the side of Light. Not all humans are on that side. Recall Bartuc and Horazon. They were corrupt beyond redemption, summoned and controlled demons like no tomorrow (this will go into your power point later), etc. Humans can be just as evil as they can be good--hence the half and half part.


It's true the angels might not be extremely concerned with human in diablo universe and are at least for the most part non interventionists. but that doesn't translate into them hating humans like the novel implies.
Big fat no. Angels see humans as tainted by their demonic blood. They are extremely concerned with humans. Their war with demons came to a screeching halt when Sanctuary was found. Since then, they see humans as a means to an end, some vermin to be eradicated lest they defect to the demons, or pawns who should only exist as they are told.

It fell upon the Angel of Justice to turn rebel and help humans, to give them a chance to prove themselves. Symbolic.



another lameness is that the novels says that humans are half demon/half angel. once again non of the games made such a claim.
The games refer to humans as hybrids called the Nephalem (refers to first generation). The Ancients are based on these people.


it was implied in the games that hell and heaven and their respective demons and angels were the elements of the duality of the universe not an actual other realm or planet. in other words humans and the normal world where good and bad things were not separate and heaven and hell are the separation of the good and bad of the universe. Diablo or mephisto weren't just monsters but were in fact the whole of terror or hatred in the universe personified, they were spirits and elements of the world. and that's why in game they always take hold of a human host.
Another no. Both games specifically show that each realm is a very separate place.

In D1, the deeper you go emulates Hell more and more until you finally step through the portal to it. In D2, likewise only access it via a portal. It isn't like you can just hike there. It's completely separate from the world.


There's also the fact that the Burning Hells and the High Heavens not only existed separately, but were completely ignorant of the existence of Sanctuary.


The Primes themselves have a physical body. Due to their Exile, they existed in a spirit form anchored into Sanctuary. The forms we see are a mortal corruption emulating that form, but we never see that true form. In their home domain, they don't require a host body.


at the same time humans are just humans biological animals who also contain elements of demons and angels, aka humans are good and bad. there was no ridiculous notion in the games that angels and demons actually mated to create humans
You never played 1.11 did you? Maybe you missed every instance of Inarius' existence.


It is very plainly implied and stated in manuals that humans are demon angels.


and don't get me started with the nephalem bull****, talk about taking out the whole mood of the universe where humans are supposed weaker beings than demons and angels and turning humans to superheros.
The mood of the universe if that humans are stronger than demons and angels but are currently being oppressed so they never figure it out. An exceptional few (our PCs, Bartuc / Horazon, etc) rise above this hindrance. Humans started out very powerful, but were constantly under the effect of the Worldstone (in the game) and were less and less powerful after generations.












Your inconsistent assumptions aside, there are big flaws with the Sin War Trilogy, but it has little to do with the lore. The author tells his stories in a pseudo third person where new chars are used to tell the details of the story while he only follows a loose background. Overall, it's a story of angels vs demons with humans faced with a choice. The details skipped were Bartuc and his 1000 year reign of blood, Horazon's obsession*, Khalim's rise and fall, etc. These were integral to the Sin War, but were mentioned only as a side historical trivia in a book based on the aftermath.





* cookie to whomever gets that quote.
 

Just smile and nod

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

yeah Im gonna agree with Sass and say that the sin war trilogy is an abomination not because of the lore, but because Knaak is a strong contender against Stephanie Meyer for worst writer of all time.
 

Valhauros

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

Whether the fault is in the content or the author, it's quite irrelevant for me... all books released so far based on the Diablo universe are a piece of crap. The original direction of the lore was based on a believable world from the beliefs of Christianity and superstitions of the middle ages and it gave the game a strong, relative, realism.

In the manual, several pieces of lore revealed information that granted an additional grasp of the world, lore which was quite turned around in D2, went far in the books and probably will go even further than ever when D3 comes out. In my opinion, they tried to warp the style into a high-fantasy world, but the result wasn't so satisfactory for many. Imo, they should have sticked to the original route.
 

fmulder

Site Contributor
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

Am I the only who liked the sin war trilogy?

@fromtheshadow:

The only angel that hated humans was Imperius. All others voted against him (with one abstained).
 

Konig Des Todes

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

for instance in the novels, it is said that angels are not actually good, and that they are in many ways as dangerous as demons to humans. this contradicts all of what D1 and D2 show of angels.
D1 never touched angels as far as I'm aware (may be wrong). D2 clearly showed a villainous angel. Nothing ever showed angels as being "only good." And honestly, I like that.

izual, tyrael, and hadriel are all clearly pro human in the game. another example is the D2 lord of destruction intro where the human guy says we are on the side of light!!
Tyrael's clearly pro-human. Hadriel only shows to be anti-demon and not anti-human (not anti-human doesn't mean pro-human). You're wrong on Izual.

another lameness is that the novels says that humans are half demon/half angel.
How I understand it from what I've seen on forums/the wiki - and I'm still reading the novels - is that some humans were. Not all.

As for this Then how come 1 human hero defeat the 3 Prime Evils then? And that IN GAME LORE. Come to that how can even 8 humans even hurt one of Prime Evils let alone defeat them? Unless there something special about them.
Actually, in lore, one human defeats Diablo (then becomes him), but a group kills him and his brothers. Still though... a group.

I don't know where people got the notion that Blizzard has good lore because they really didnt.

They make good games, but the lore to those games really.. really sucks.
Indeed. Despite their great potential, Blizzard has yet to show me a game with really good story.

And books based off of games almost always suck, usually due to being written by amateurs or people who have only written poor game novels (and can make a living because of the kind of books they write) - sometimes its purely due to the fact that they're outsourced writers, not the makers of the lore. There are, of course, exceptions. But not generally.


 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

Am I the only who liked the sin war trilogy?

@fromtheshadow:

The only angel that hated humans was Imperius. All others voted against him (with one abstained).
I loved it. Even though I dislike the way the story was told (new char instead of telling the base lore), it was a fine read as far as I was concerned.

Also, Malthael agreed with Imperius. Itharael sided with Auriel to at least not destroy them.

How I understand it from what I've seen on forums/the wiki - and I'm still reading the novels - is that some humans were. Not all.
All of them are. They didn't initially exist as we know them in D1 and D2 though. It took generations for them to "devolve" under the influence of the Worldstone.

As another look at it's impact, it's gone in D3 and a brand new Wizard is given enough power to take down a leader of a mage clan.




Indeed. Despite their great potential, Blizzard has yet to show me a game with really good story.
I'll throw my hat into the pot of weirdos and say I absolutely love Blizzard lore. Diablo's parallels real life lore so well and has a fantasy twist (don't kid your selves guys, D1 was all fantasy too). Even Warcraft is so expansive and has a more D&D feeling fantasy due to the mixed races and such. I wish i was into SC, but I'm sure it appeals to the SciFi geek in me. ;P



And books based off of games almost always suck, usually due to being written by amateurs or people who have only written poor game novels (and can make a living because of the kind of books they write) - sometimes its purely due to the fact that they're outsourced writers, not the makers of the lore. There are, of course, exceptions. But not generally.
Certainly exceptions, but more than agree with a few of the books.

Legacy of Blood and Kingdom or Shadow are easily my top two favs. They feel like you're actually telling the story with a class from Diablo. The rest were just a basic telling with totally new things. New can be good, but it detached the story too much for me.


 

roshen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

Horazon's obsession*


* cookie to whomever gets that quote.
The sin on entering the Arcane Sanctuary.


Now, gieb cookie Sass. GIEB!

Now, I'm not going to say I *love* blizzard lore, but as far as games go, it's among the best out there. The novels certainly add to it. Don't even get me started on the trash that some other companies try to pass off as a story.


 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

:O well that was quick.







*reluctantly gives up the best cookie ever*.
 

Konig Des Todes

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

All of them are. They didn't initially exist as we know them in D1 and D2 though. It took generations for them to "devolve" under the influence of the Worldstone.

As another look at it's impact, it's gone in D3 and a brand new Wizard is given enough power to take down a leader of a mage clan.
I see, thanks. The wiki page on the Nephalem is deceiving with the list of "known descendants" being so small. :/

I'll throw my hat into the pot of weirdos and say I absolutely love Blizzard lore. Diablo's parallels real life lore so well and has a fantasy twist (don't kid your selves guys, D1 was all fantasy too). Even Warcraft is so expansive and has a more D&D feeling fantasy due to the mixed races and such. I wish i was into SC, but I'm sure it appeals to the SciFi geek in me. ;P
Starcraft 1 is easily my favorite sci-fi universe of all those I've seen. Haven't read any of its books or played the second game yet though.

Blizzard's lore in the (earlier) games is good - arguably great - but not flesh out enough imo. Hence my saying of it having great potential, but not a good story. Lore encompasses more than just story - the story is just the fleshing out (and the plots of books/games/movies/etc.).

Never been a Warcraft fan, but of what I've seen of Warcraft lore, WoW slaughtered it due to the various playable races.


 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

For me, WoW slaughtered it with everyone killing off all chars. =/ It's just a matter of time before we kill Thrall or something.
 

Darkmere

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

For me, WoW slaughtered it with everyone killing off all chars. =/ It's just a matter of time before we kill Thrall or something.
Oh no, Thrall's on the mystical wizard council now! He left when they killed off Cairne for... absolutely no reason. I'm pretty sure they just have a dart board of NPC's and pick them at random.


 

The Rockman

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: the sin wars trilogy novels, worst thing to happen to diablo lore

Yep WoW killed Warcraft lore mainly because of a) it's MMO b) they thrown almost every NPC into the grinder (personally I would never of had the players go up against Arthas (SP?) or Deathwing).
 
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