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The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by permaximum, May 7, 2010.

  1. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    I read some posts about the war in Hell between Belial and Azmodan will play a critical role in the next game. This is a false prediction and it cannot happen... Let me explain the events of dark exile from the beginning.

    “Seven is the number of the powers of Hell, and Seven is the number of the Great Evils.”

    The Lesser of the Great Evils
    Duriel, the Lord of Pain
    Andariel, the Maiden of Anguish
    Belial, the Lord of Lies
    Azmodan, the Lord of Sin

    The Prime Evils
    Mephisto, the Lord of Hatred
    Baal, the Lord of Destruction
    Diablo, the Lord of Terror


    With the ascension of Man, Diablo and his brothers thought man would play a critical role in the Great Conflict and they devoted their energies to the perversion of mortal souls. But they didn't want the Heaven to intervene their plans about the mortal world so that they planned the Dark Exile. They started to manipulate Lesser Evils and all Hell to revolt against them. In the end All of Hell went war against the Three Brothers. The Prime Evils had to play their parts in the war to not take the attention of the Heaven so that they fought with all of the savagery of the Underworld, and to their credit, annihilated a third of Hell’s treacherous legions. In the end, however, they were overcome by the Horned Death led by the traitors Azmodan and Belial. And they were sent to the mortal world. Just like they planned...

    This would known as The Dark Exile.

    In the mortal world they needed bodies to use their true powers. With the information they got from fallen angel Izual, they tricked the Heaven and Tyreal to use soulstones against them. So they were captured by Horadrim (with the help of Tyreal) and trapped within the soulstones. Then Diablo -leader of the three- eventually broke free and manipulated the warrior from Diablo I to gain a stronger body. So far everything had gone to his wishes and the events of D2 began.

    Meanwhile in the Hell, after the Dark Exile, civil war had begun between the forces of Azmodan and Belial. Here comes the most important point. We have seen in the ending cinematic of act 3, Diablo went to the Hell and have sent his terror. In the act 4, it seemed Diablo got control of the Hell again and he was waiting for us.

    So, in fact there is not a war between Azmodan and Belial in Hell anymore. Diablo got control of the Hell again ( we don't know whether he punished Azmodan and Belial or not, like he did for Andariel and Duriel ) and he got defeated. It's unknown to us what's going on in Hell after the events of D2. But we do know that the war in hell that started after the dark exile, did end with the return of Diablo. Meaning, this won't be a part of Diablo 3.

    Blizzard confirmed that Azmodan and Belial will be in D3. But i don't think they will be there for their own wishes. I guess if Diablo returns, they will be in the command of Diablo.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2010
  2. Zeek

    Zeek IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    Why would he need to take back control. It was all a ruse. They weren't really kicking him out. They weren't traitors. They were playing the role they were meant to play.
     
  3. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    Nope. They were traitors. Although the prime evils manipulated them to prepare a revolt against the three, they did not know the plan and they really wanted to banish the prime evils out of Hell and take control of the Hell for themselves. They were playing the given role but they were unaware and willingly did their parts.

    We do know that after the resurrection of Diablo in the Earth, Duriel and Andariel feared of him and they re-allied with Diablo and accepted Diablo's punishment for them. Andariel had to take control of Rogues and stay in Rogue Monestery to keep it safe from other forces. Duriel's punishment was to protect the tomb of Tal Rasha and preventing Tyreal from getting free by the help of andventurers or in his own.
     
  4. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    You do know that this still hinges on their civil war right? I'll explain.

    We only saw that he went to Hell. We have no knowledge of where in Hell except for the Chaos Sanctuary. We didn't see Mephisto, Belial, Azmodan, Duriel, nor Andariel. We saw only a fraction of Hell. Assuming what we saw was all of his domain, we've seen only 1/7th of Hell.

    This is not enough to assume he came back and conquered all of it.

    So, in their corners of Hell, they would be fighting when he steps through.


    Diablo is still weak from his Exile and banishment. When we fight him, he is sealed away and not at full strength--he's still in a possessed body of the Wanderer. Either somebody else imprisoned him, or he is recuperating. He's in no condition to siege Hell all over again.

    This leaves 20 years of waiting, where Hell has not sprung to flood Sanctuary. Now is the time where it is plausible (likely), that the civil war has been put to rest. The Triune has returned, and is backed by two others of the Great Evils. In this time, Azmodan and Belial are re subdued.

    How does this translate to their war being pivotal? Simple.


    They were bickering throughout D2, and once all 3 are back, they are now back under the control of the Prime Evils. This leaves them focused not on themselves, but the Sin War once again.

    They are...persuaded...to corrupt human souls to serve their armies. Now, we see Belial playing his part to replenish the ranks lost during the Exile with his rituals and deception.

    AFAIK, the events are before D3, and with Belial being in A2, that wouldn't have made sense that they'd be in Hell fighting at this time.
     
  5. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    All Hell is his domain according to the lore. No doubt that when he returns to Hell, all demons have to obey him. Otherwise they would already went war against him and even if they did, it seems Diablo was in control again. Mephisto exactly says "Send your terror into Hell"...

    Three brothers single-handedly coud beat all Hell during the riot but they had a plan and they followed it. It wouldn't be so hard for the greatest prime evil ( even if he was weakened but i do not agree with that statement) to conquer all Hell especially without Andariel and Duriel with their forces.

    We do know that Diablo's mission in mortal realm is to become The Lord of that world. (From Diablo I). He would use brutality and terror to make them obey and use the strong evil souls against the Heaven while sending others to Hell for their eternal torture. Means he is the absolute ruler of hell just like it's stated in D1 manual.

    I don't think Azmodan and Belial could do anything to the most powerful being in the universe. They very likely obeyed him.

    I assume that a plan was set in motion when he went to Hell in D2, probably something involves Azmodan and Belial just like he punished Andariel and Duriel. That's why demons have waited for 20 years.
     
  6. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    Other than the weakened statement, none of that was being contested. You just said irrelevant facts. o_O


    We do know Diablo is in a weakened form though. He didn't even have a body. The Diablo we fought was some warrior who traveled to Tristram being possessed. I'm sure even you would think that the real demon's form would be more powerful than a puppet body.

    Also, Diablo is the most powerful demon, but not the most powerful being. Uldysian defeated him, as did our chars (the returning Barb I suppose). With the Uldysian example, even Diablo is afraid of something.


    Moreover, there wouldn't be a stalemate if Diablo was the most powerful being. If he was, the Great Conflict would have been over before the Sin War could have begun. As you can see, it's still going on, and the High Heavens still aren't defeated.
     
  7. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    First and foremost there is no Uldyssian in Diablo universe. That's just a fiction written by Richard A. Knaak based on Diablo universe after 2 games 1 expansion and clear lore. Although Metzen said the books are cannon like games, books even conflicts with each other. You'll see this in Diablo 3. The books won't be taken as the base lore. But if you say Diablo lore changes with each step i can agree with that. But it won't be releated to the books. And most importantly the books conflict with game lore so seriously. There are so much difference with the series lore and the books.

    Let's assume the future of Diablo will be based on these books - not games -;

    Uldyssian was the most powerful being in Sanctuary in the book. But his power was connected to the worldstone which was created by Inarius to limit men's (or nephalem as the book says) power but with a luck Uldyssian became the worldstone's itself and he gained the real control over it. Although he had enormous power, still Inarius was more powerful than him until his discovery of he can break Inarius' connection with the worldstone. What i mean, until that time Inarius had limitless power in the Sanctuary.

    But as you know, when Diablo entered the Sanctuary, Inarius feared of him and couldn't do anything but made a pact with him as Diablo wanted. Inarius knew that Diablo is so weakened in Sanctuary just like other demons or angels because it was a foreign domain for them and they couldn't use their powers limitlessly. Still Inarius couldn't do anything to Diablo. Inarius the creator of the Sanctuary couldn't do anything to Diablo in his domain when he has full access to the worldstone just like when Uldyssian gained that access in the end. Inarius could end Sanctuary just like Uldyssian did but he was so big headed that he thought it would never come to that.

    They only could stop him with destroying all Sanctuary but that would make them loose the battle and that wouldn't do anything to Diablo.

    After assuming the books are the real lore, i go on and let's assume that in the end Uldyssian was more powerful. But he was only more powerful in his domain. But in the Universe, Diablo is the most powerful. Just like i mentioned in my previous post.

    Albeit i do not consider the books as the real lore or Uldyssian was more powerful in his domain. But even if the books are the real thing and Uldyssian is the most powerful being in his domain still he is not the most ppwerful being in Diablo universe. Diablo is the most powerful one in Diablo universe.

    Edit: In Diablo I, the warrior beat Diablo because it was Diablo's plan to gain a stronger body. In Diablo 2, heroeS beat Diablo as it's stated by Deckard Cain's journal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  8. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    The books were semi-canon. They tell the story of what happened, but didn't do it by actually following those events, just mentions of the past.

    In that, they're canon, but not the execution, which I'll agree to. The same happens with Bartuc where we never are reading as Bartuc during his reign, but rather get small glimpses of the part that explains that part of the Sin War.

    On the subject of Uldysian specifically, he doesn't have to exist to replicate what he did. He was being attacked by Diablo's terror and used it against him instead. When making someone see their greatest fear, anyone with a mirror can show even him what he'd fear (unclear what that is).

    But specifically, what is clashing with the games and books?

    It's his world, his power. Lilith just made it possible for her puppet to access it. If we're being indirect like this, she too would be one of the most powerful there.

    Also, the games call them Nephalem as well, not just the books.

    No, it wasn't that he couldn't do anything to Diablo, it's that he wouldn't.

    If you'll recall, he also held back whenever flying out of his Cathedral. He didn't want to show his full splendor since he knew it would attract the attention of the High Heavens.

    Similarly, he'd held back several times when facing Uldysian as well. Part was also vanity that he shouldn't have to resort to that, but at the time, he didn't want Uldysian fighting him plus the Council finding him.

    When interacting with Diablo, he wanted his enemies to fight amongst themselves. After all, they aren't worth dirtying his hands. He planned on double crossing Diablo when it was over, but Uldyssian was the one who defeated Diablo and ruined that plan.

    And just like I mentioned in my post, that is still false. If he was most powerful (out side of Sanctuary and on whatever plane of existence the Great Conflict takes place), there wouldn't be a Conflict at all. it would be over with his whim. If he was so powerful, he wouldn't need mere human souls. Humans whose potential makes them more powerful than demons or angels I might add.

    The books are widely known to be only half canon, but doesn't diminish the fact that Diablo isn't the most powerful being. He is the most powerful Demon, but not the most powerful being.

    He's been defeated too many times in weakened puppet bodies for me to take that seriously as well. It's only a matter of time before we get to his true self, which perhaps that's what we do this time.

    I'm even surprised you look to Cain's Journal when you yourself tried to discredit much of it with calling it discrepancies.

    Still, hero or heroes, that doesn't change anything. Diablo was weakened then and defeated by humans.
     
  9. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    That's a complete joke too. The lord of terror fears his image. LoL.

    If i recall correct nephalem was started to be used by in D2:LoD ancients quests. Perhaps you're right on that one. But it doesn't really explain what nephalem means. It's explained in the books.

    If Inarius could do anything to Diablo he could. Even Tyreal says "in the end Lord of Terror always wins and he will win again this time" . He was referring to their pact. I know Diablo can't terminate Inarius in his own domain but Inarius can't terminate him too.

    Uldyssian didn't defeat Diablo. the Sanctuary covered him. Diablo just left the battle.

    The most powerful being won't translate to absolute victory everywhere. There are many archangels but there are only 3 prime evils.

    He has been defeated 1 time by hereoes because it's a game and the ultimate bad guy has to be killed. Also do you see Diablo as "Lord of Terror" in the game? :). Devs can't implement lore into the gameplay and art in a serious way.

    I don't like Diablo 3's current direction except sounds not music, that doesn't mean i won't take it's lore more serious than the books.

    BTW humans whose potential makes them more powerful than angels and demons or they are the children of demons and angels is a fake thing written by Richard A. Knaak.

    The Sin War was completely different than it's stated in the books. The great conflict comes to the mortal realm after it's discovery, some wise men choose sides between the Heaven and the Hell (for example Bartuc and Horozan) and it was going well for Diablo and his brothers. The war is also named "The Sin War" by Diablo.

    As for Inarius thing. Here's the real deal. The books are nothing as far as game lore goes.

    Also i suggest you to read these tomes from games to learn the actual lore behind the Sin War.

    http://diablowiki.net/Tome

    Also here.

    http://diablowiki.net/Sin_War
     
  10. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    YEs, but you also consider the other 4 Evils as well, not the prime Evils alone. That's 7 vs 5. 4 Assuming something happened to Tyrael.

    This is a huge joke right?

    He's been defeated twice, not including events in the Great Conflict. The Exile won't count since he was one of those that staged it in the first place.

    And we see him in the game as Diablo when you highlight him. And yes, he is called the Lord of Terror in game. I don't know what you're getting at, but maybe you need to replay the game to know what's in it.

    And the jab at the devs further shows you don't know much. Ad hominem is a very bad way of getting a point across, especially a false one at that.

    D3's already been stated to focus more on the lore than D2 did, but have it as interactive rather than D1's just reading books.

    That's part of my point in the previous post, the books don't explain the Sin War. They take the story in a way that focuses on a person adventuring at that time, but only loosely explains the back ground story relevant to Diablo as a game.

    That's why they are semi canon, since there weren't actually those people exactly, but it is official in that it does explain actual events that took place, but not all of them, and not in any detail.

    Ureh, the Triune, Ensteig, etc. We don't see any of these in games, but they are a part of the lore none the less.

    How much and what part is what can be up to question, not that the books are 100% fake since they aren't.


    And I know all about the Sin War. What's your point?
     
  11. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    There are many archangels but there are only 7 great evils. If you mean angiris council it's not mentioned in games but books. Still if you are talking about the book lore, it's 5 vs 3. Lesser evils don't rule Hell. They are near equal to archangels of the Heaven.

    In Diablo I he wanted to gain a stronger body as i mentioned before. It was his plan. In Diablo 2 there were many heroes defeated him.

    Do you fear Diablo in the game? But according to the lore he's the Lord of Terror. Do you get the point now? OFC we should be able to defeat him in the game. After all it's a game not a book.. But it would be stupid saying one man killed Diablo in the lore.

    The books ofc not 100% fake but they are not the actual game lore. If we are talking about Diablo series video games we should focus on game lore not novels.


    It's alone a discrepancy. I don't have to go into tiny details. The main subject of the books is so different than the game's. Just like Inarius' involvement in the Sin War. I thought you asked for his :S


     
  12. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    Then if you only go by games so far, there is only 1 archangel--Tyrael.

    However, the books are true since we will be seeing at least one other member of the Council in D3. Past that, we don't know an identity, just that we see at least two, and one is Tyrael. So even in-game, the Council is official.

    And when you say "they", it's still on the Lesser Evils. If they're as strong as the Council members, then it's still 5 vs 7.

    However, you're too hung up on that to understand why.

    Diablo wants a stronger body. If he's doing that, he won't just let himself be killed by the first person to walk through the door. The person has to prove he's strong. He has to kill Diablo, which he does, alone.

    Now he's found the stronger body to possess with the Soulstone.


    In Diablo II, it's similar; you legitimately kill Diablo.

    In that game, he was planning on taking back Hell. He didn't want a new body, he wasn't hinging his plan on being killed; he sought to rule Hell again.

    So, when we come crashing in, he's legitimately trying to kill us, but gets defeated. One guy or 8, it doesn't matter; he's defeated.

    Yes, of course you fear him in-game. Nothing / nobody has said otherwise.

    We aren't playing chars who aren't afraid of him, we're playing chars who rose above the rest and over came that fear.


    And calling it stupid is purely your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, at least keep in mind that it is only your opinion, and doesn't even reflect the opinions of others. It doesn't even have to have supporting evidence (which you can't have for something to not appeal to you).

    So that's purely your way of looking at it. Another would be that it adds accomplishment to it. What would be the point in playing if the end boss is impossible to kill? That kills replay easily, and is more detrimental to the game than one person not liking that we kill Diablo again.

    Or, maybe the issue is with numbers. That'd be fine, but this is an ARPG. It's very common for one guy to be able to kill the end boss without a group of people (Link, Kratos, Mario, etc).

    So, the issue isn't that we play as one guy, it's how you feel about that happening.

    I would say it's pretty obvious that book-lore isn't the same as game-lore.

    Both focus on the same lore, but done in different ways.

    The game is interactive in a way that books can never be. The closest are the kind that flip to a page to do X action or make Y decision.

    Books are limited by content, but also how it's told.

    It could be done in a way where we are reading in the third person and have detailed descriptions of the sieges mentioned. I would love to read a first person account of Duriel battering the gates of Heaven.

    We could even have a detailed account of what truly transpired with Izual. Both sides claim two different explanations.

    My most favorite of all, I want to read a saga detailing Bartuc's 1000 year reign and eventual clash with Horizon.


    That's how I would like them told, and that is basically how it is in the games (sort of). In the games, you're told about the past while playing the present. Books can actually be presently in the past.



    However, we get an adventure that tells the background story while the foreground is dealing with semi-official things. Keep in mind, this is not a Diablo issue.

    The problem is the author. I like Knaak's books, but they all have that same theme where instead of telling the events, he tells it through the eyes of added characters going through it.

    The exact same thing happens in the War of the Ancients Trilogy. We do get to see the nightelves, the Burning Legion and such, but we do so through the eyes of 3 added characters: Rhonin, Krasus and Brox.

    It's a bit change of pace, but you get the underlying lore--that the nightelves defeat the Burning Legion.

    This happens in the Sin War Trilogy.

    We see the two sides fight, we even see them trying to recruit humans. We know the necromancers were first taught by Rathma himself, but we didn't know who was the first.

    His style of writing just fills in the gaps with semi-official things. Did you notice at the end where it leaves the world in an option that the events basically never happened? That ties in with his style, not the lore.



    So, I do agree that there is a discrepancy. However, the discrepancy isn't with what happens, it's with how it's told. You may not like his style, and that's completely valid. I, for instance, utterly cannot stand meta-fiction.

    Again, this is simply a matter of opinion, and doesn't reflect an issue with the lore. It was already known that every detail wasn't official, but much of it was. Re-stating this doesn't change anything or get anyone anywhere.

    I did, but it took you two posts to still not give the details. I can read both again, but there'd be no point if I don't know what you're focusing on.

    The existing discrepancies have already been discussed.
     
  13. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    We're looking at the books' lore from different perspectives. Besides i don't agree with that hell's rulers count is more than the Heaven's. And Diablo can be defeated in games for the gameplay sake like you mentioned. But it is different in the lore. Just like only the warrior defeated Diablo in the original.

    After telling where we fall apart let's focus on the real topic and what we agree.

    Diablo is the most powerful being in Diablo games. I think you agree with this. Assuming he gained control of Hell again in Diablo 2 sounds normal to me. Especially considering the Dark Exile events. Now why do you disagree with this idea?
     
  14. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    You look at the books as trying to be a part of the lore and results in a conflict.

    I look at the books as a way to tell the underlying story through indirect ways.

    If you take to books 100%, it'll clash with what happened. However, that doesn't mean the books are invalid, just that they aren't 100% accurate. The important events are official, but not the unimportant side things.

    And he's defeated for gameplay, but also for lore purposes. We're playing the lore.


    I do not agree he is the most powerful being in the Diablo games. He is only the most powerful demon, but not the most powerful being.

    Not only are whatever char(s) we use going to eventually be more powerful, but we haven't seen what the angels can do yet.

    I disagree that he regained control because he was still working on it. It wasn't an instantaneous process.

    The Dark Exile would only contribute that:
    1) Hell is weaker, so less to get in his way.
    2) Azmodan and Belial would still have to be located and dealt with.
    3) We saw no evidence of being near them.
    4) He was in his own Sanctuary requiring 5 seals to open. This alone is open to many options:
    4a) He is done needing a mortal body, so he's getting out of it to regain his true form and his powers. However, this seems likely to have a ritual involved, or at least some clue this was happening, which we aren't given.
    4b) He is still recuperating his lost powers. Free from the Worldstone's hindrance, his power is bound to increase, but also not an instantaneous thing.

    To have taken over hell, he would need to be powerful, perhaps as powerful as he was initially. That would have been impossible in his current mortal form.

    Therefore, I think it likely that the 20 year wait after Baal's destruction is when that takes place, not Diablo II.

    In this span, he is united with the other Primes and can still take over Hell, especially having shed his possessed (now dead) body.

    With all 3 against two, Azmodan and Belial are then defeated into submission. Now, they work for the Three like they always had, perhaps being explained why the Three did what they did.

    Going with this, Belial enters Sanctuary to recruit human souls with his deception. And in comes A2 from the trailers.



    I agree they'll eventually take it over, but you're placing the events too soon.
     
  15. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    We won't find a middle way. So it's pointless to discuss. Here's my facts.

    Diablo is the most powerful being in Diablo universe. That's probably why the game is named Diablo.

    Three primes evils alone without their demonic forces could defeat nearly all of Hell including other 4 great evils and their forces. So i assume Diablo with his demonic forces took control of the Hell without Andariel and Duriel along with their forces in D2.

    The books are not the actual game lore and there is so much difference between them.
     
  16. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    Only 2 of those 3 were fact.

    We haven't seen everyone in the universe, nor have we had a shot at fighting Diablo. That's speculation until stated otherwise. He is the most powerful demon, and demons are currently winning. That's why the game is Diablo; he's the focal point, but that doesn't make him the most powerful. In fact, that makes whatever char we use at the time the most powerful until someone else comes along.

    Diablo does take over Hell. He just does it at a different time under different circumstances.

    The books follow the game lore, but do so with a different spin on it. There are differences, but they aren't completely separate.
     
  17. Leord

    Leord IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    BTW, it does seem like the Triune is coming back. Look at the Cultists as well as some of the art in the gallery...

    "Triune" is mentioned more than once...
     
  18. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    @Leord

    Yes, it seems like that, still it isn't definite atm. I hope there won't be anything like that in D3. Because most of men know Diablo, Hell etc. after the events of 2 games.

    BTW thank you for the wiki links. It's a much more informative thread now.
     
  19. Jambe

    Jambe IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    Wait, you don't want the Triune featured in D3 because it's not mentioned in the other games? Do you simply want Diablo 2.5?
     
  20. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Roles of Azmodan and Belial in D3

    He doesn't want them since they preach to join what turns out to be the Prime Evils.

    But, that doesn't seem to be the direction they take in D3 anyway.
     

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