The PvP Thread

NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

200 ES besto. Huge damage, almost unkillable if defensive enough with fastest tele and infinite mana.
 

NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

1) 200 FCR ES/Fire
2) Trapper
3) Windy

200 FCR outspeeds everything else, so you usually won't be caught if you play very defensively. Along with infinite mana, 100% spammable attack (2.5 mana Fire Bolt?), 95 ES, and even a little replenish from CTA side, you can turtle away anything's potions/arrows/willpower eventually, or even hit the lottery with random Meteor.

Honestly, I retired my 105 ES/block variant because it was just stupidly OP, and that was without even a full set of skill charms.

(By the way, summoner is actually not too bad. I can't remember who brought one, but while it dies pretty easily, it also hits really hard.)
 

frozzzen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

Every build can be strong if you just keep 2 screens away/extreme turtle mode. Even Hammerdin can spam hammers and flee from you whenever you enter his screen. I just didn't play with 200 es fire or vs one for quite some time except vs col's 200 es fire but it's not 95% ES build, managed to take her down with both my trapper and windy for couple times over in FFA, but you were there to see it I think). It's not as broken as as Sapphire but it's same build more or less. One namelock and they are done, both with windy or trapper.

I'm rather surprised you didn't mention bone necromancer in top tier. Certainly better than wind druid imo. Even if he isn't better in head to head matchup vs windy he is still strong vs absolutely everything but ES sorcs. And windy is also doable if you use enough teeth. Low range kills windy from top tier. Also SP pvp rules ban recasting of cyclone armor so it takes one of big advantages of windy in FFA to counter many threats. Imo, he would be tier 1 if recasting of armor would be allowed.

I'll make lollist soonish. Have to think over some things.
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

@ Nagisa
I understand reason behind putting 200 ES sorc on first place. It's similar to LLD healing paladin which can simply charge out of map to fully regen and then return to fight. Basically, you can't kill him. But where are the limits of fair play there? Someone can simply teleport a mile away, regen to full mana and return to battle like a new. Or someone can play sooo defensively he never come even near your screen and shots from a mile away at you. That way she can outlast anything and will score a hit eventually. But that is really bad for a duel. Only way to fight back is to run away from her and wait her to come near you. If she don't want to, then run again and still wait. If someone would play so defensively against me, I would definitely troll him running away from him instead. So if he wants to fight, come close to me. If not, lets have 10 minute duel. I would watch not to use too much mana, just teleport and run away from her in circles. What then? :p
No, I don't like too defensive play (or too passive). If someone wants to run away, I would wait him, why to chase him. He will eventually get aggressive cause I surely wont lose mana to chase him around. Unless he hopes to hit me with fireball from screen away somehow.

But if you don't play this annoying style, then she can die. Luckily, I didn't see very defensive player with 200 ES sorc yet, only for a moment some running cold sorc. Yes, I waited her with barb in two duels. Run if you want, I don't care. You won't hit me either. :p
 

colony

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

There's a significant difference between the best builds for 1v1 and for FFA.

If we're talking about a tournament setting, where winning matters and people will use all the absorb they're allowed, then elemental builds are all at a massive disadvantage compared to physical and magic damage. Dual Wisps, TGods, Hotspurs and Ravens are just very effective. Bone necros, BvCs, ghosts and wind druids are all at the top, but the problem is that they all have weaknesses. Bone necros should lose to a good sorc with a strong ES almost every time, wind druids have a lot of difficulty with trappers, BvCs are difficult to play well and ghosts have massive issues with barbs and paladins. BvCs are generally put near the top of the list as (in theory at least) they can beat anything except a BvB reliably.

For FFA elemental builds tend to work better than in 1v1 as it's more difficult to negate multiple elements than a single element. It's also far more volatile and normally heavily favours more defensive builds with fewer gear switches to make, such as bone necros and sorcs. Hammerdins and paladin hybrids generally actually do quite well, particularly if they can desynch properly, simply because they take so long to kill and each hit they land does so much damage.

Edit:
Every build can be strong if you just keep 2 screens away/extreme turtle mode. Even Hammerdin can spam hammers and flee from you whenever you enter his screen. I just didn't play with 200 es fire or vs one for quite some time except vs col's 200 es fire but it's not 95% ES build, managed to take her down with both my trapper and windy for couple times over in FFA, but you were there to see it I think). It's not as broken as as Sapphire but it's same build more or less. One namelock and they are done, both with windy or trapper.
It's not even an 80% ES, simply an ES Memory and Ormus, think it works out around 76-78% as I hate wasting time pre-buffing. Anyway, if a 200FCR 95% ES sorc wants to play silly buggers, that's what OW stacking is for.
 

NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

If you catch her, she can generally just outrun you and get away with minimal damage is more of the point. Even stuff like OW isn't difficult at all to replenish away if you really wanted. Running out of arrows or potions trying to kill Sapphire was pretty constant theme.

As for namelock, druid is just as equally screwed if ES/FB gets one on him. Any kind of assassin is different, obviously.

I left bonemancer off since he gets roasted by all three of those[strike] and has shouldbebannedlolgolem[/strike].

Not saying build is perfect, but it's my personal #1 (especially since I play defensively), and I'd say it's been the most successful build in the usual SPF duels over the years. (...to col's point, most of these are usually FFA or team.)
 

frozzzen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

90 is maxress you can get without going into BM waters, for both FFA or tournament (those exist?) rules. Or amount of sorb can be so it doesn't reduce more than 90 maxress. 95 is just lol. Dual Wisp is very lol and such amount of sorb will never make you better player or anything.

I didn't play amazons back when Sapphire was active but amazons look like they have edge over nonblock ES sorcs. If you can go out of arrows in duel that's far too defensive play probably. I stopped playing my 200 fcr ES cause she is strong, but she can surely die off one namelock if they catch you off guard.

C/C trapper is obviously best character for FFA or 1v1 as long as people are not going over 90 ress and you can afford to have mana pool of at least 600. I guess bowazons can be problem or high life/sorb paladin with Grief but others are probably very dead.
 

colony

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

90 is maxress you can get without going into BM waters, for both FFA or tournament (those exist?) rules. Or amount of sorb can be so it doesn't reduce more than 90 maxress. 95 is just lol. Dual Wisp is very lol and such amount of sorb will never make you better player or anything.
I simply meant that people are more likely to use absorb in a tournament than in a casual game, the same rules still apply. I assume I'm not the only one who just doesn't really bother with absorb in normal games, except where those items are part of the standard build equipment (e.g. dual Raven's on a BvC).

If I'm up against a well equipped trapper or a 200FCR light sorc in a 1v1 tournament match and the rules say I can use dual Wisps then of course I'll use them in those circumstances - anything else would be handicapping myself for no reason at all.
 

frozzzen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

I'm just saying that those rules are horribly outdated and no one really approached them with any mathematical point of view. Two items with absorb lightning? So 4 Lo Monarch and Wisp. 95 LR and 20% absorb reducing average 1-11k trap to 27.5 dmg. Add in some mdr and she does zero dmg, since mdr doesn't apply to BM rules? Not enough? 95% ES firesorc does 13k FB dmg. 4 Vex shield and 1.07 LoH (that isn't banned in old ruleset) makes your 13k FB into 22 dmg. mdr plox. Still 2 sources of sorb are fine?

I did some math, comparisons of physical hitters, how much investing points into dex reduces your life to get maxblock and 50% DR etc etc etc, and came to conclusion that magical number would be 90 maxress without any sorb, or enough sorb to reduce attack to same rate as 90 maxress would do it.

And yeah, I don't use sorb unless it's integrated in my gear, such as 5 maxress from Waterwalks or Ravens. Sometimes I do use sorb when I'm up against 1 hit killers or builds that just do too strong dmg in one hit (so I would use 2 Ravens without any CR stack just to survive couple hits from Blizzard sorc. It's not funny to randomly charge around moor to die from invisible 15k blizzard that someone randomly left and so on) or rely to lowering your resists to achieve greater dmg (FoH pally, but then again, I only use sorb as substitute to stacking resists; same effect would be achieved with any of those two).

EDIT: Fair point about BvC down there.
 
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Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

C/C trapper is obviously best character for FFA or 1v1 as long as people are not going over 90 ress and you can afford to have mana pool of at least 600. I guess bowazons can be problem or high life/sorb paladin with Grief but others are probably very dead.
I would add BvC here. Sure trapper is challenging match for him, but he can tank a lot, has whirlwind to deal with stuns and can deal serious damage with successful whirlwind. It's like 60-40 toward trapper, surely rather even and not one-sided match overall.
 

Pyrohemia

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

The fact that 200% FCR + 95% ES is such a ridiculous combo is the reason why Sapphire never comes out unless someone is playing a hamerdin.

A sorceress holding an infinity throwing charged bolts around, for example, is just much more fun for all involved.
 

nulio

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

I agree that MaxRes+Sorb should be limited in a more clever way than 'max two items'. I've been thinking of proposing something for some time now, but I'm lazy. I'll start working on it when I'm procrastinating the important stuff.


About tiers and builds, I agree with most of what has been said so far. My personal Top5 (not necessarily in this order):

- 200FCR ES Fire Sorceress
- Trapper
- Windy
- Bone Necro
- Mage

Any of these well equipped and masterfully played are the strongest IMO.

Then there are others who are awesome but lack that special something or just have more bad match-ups:

- Bowazon
- Blizzard ES Sorceress
- BvC
- Liberators
- T/V and V/T
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

Charging paladins and their desynch View attachment 4357
Can't play against them, I never know where they really are, but I know they are never where map shows they are. It's like fighting a ghost in the middle of mirror labyrinth.

When paladin knows how to abuse this, he might be nearly unstoppable. How can you fight that paladin? You can't see him, you don't know where he really is, you have no idea where hammer field is... Most annoying opponents ever.
 

Pyrohemia

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

You have to have an attack with a large area of effect that you can spam while teleporting wildly. As a bowazon you can also run away from them and with sufficient run/walk speed it seems to frequently make charges coming from the same direction whiff.

If they are using hammers you don't know exactly where the hammer field is, but you know what area of the map they were last in so don't go there for 10-15 seconds and you can't die to invisible hammers.
 

NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

Charge is indeed pretty darn annoying. Never really figured out how to handle that, but more so because it one shots all of my stuff. <_<

Update list when you can, nulio ~

HLD
Ai - Amazon - Bowazon (Walking) - 1.13d
Akari - Amazon - LF/Bow (Teleport) - 1.13d
Olivie - Amazon - PJ/Bow (Teleport) - 1.13d
Lucia - Assassin - Kick/Trap/Bow - 1.13d

<3 bowies. Last one still needs some tweaking (and leveling).
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

Now next subject in discussion. What about prebuffing? Should it be allowed? Should it be limited to exact number of items for everyone? Should it be viewed case-by-case for each build separately to decide where are limitations? Should prebuff be allowed without any limitations?

I'm strongly against prebuffing with mo limits. Same with prebuffing with allowed limits like 3-4-5 items. It totally screws the game for me, takes time to prebuff while others wait... most importantly, many players don't prebuff and if someone would, that would be totally unfair advantage for him against everyone else who don't want to prebuff. 10k hp barb, no fun at all. Throw in absorb on top of that, hell-yeah.

Now, question is what with sorcs? It's like almost every sorc out there goes for several item prebuff just to get 95% ES. If she is allowed to do that, then no-limit prebuff is allowed for everyone else, right? Why not? In that case I already gave my opinion. Same as if we use rule like "3 or 4 or X" items prebuff allowed for everyone. Go and buff your sorc, I'll wait with 10k hp barb with absorb. Good luck.

If we view case-by-case for every build, then again why should sorc be allowed to use several items prebuff to get 95% ES? In the first place, do sorc REALLY need to have 95% ES? Why don't we limit her allowed prebuff to 1 item? She can have 95%ES with investing more hard points into ES and with proper equipment + memory staff prebuff. Yes, she would sacrifice damage or some equipment, but what's wrong with that anyway? I don't understand why should all sorcs have 95 ES at the first place, if they should that is.
If we somehow allow sorc to prebuff with lets say 4 items, then why should't it be allowed for my barb to prebuff to "unkillable" amount of hp? She increases her survivability, I increase mine.
Basically, if we view case-by-case for every build separately, then why should sorc be any different than any other build to be allowed to prebuff with several items just to get 95%ES? Unlike lets say barb or any other character that can be easily be prebuffed to sick amounts. I can accept that only if someone arguments me why should sorc be privileged here unlike other classes and builds.

Idea what I'm not against for now is to limit allowed prebuff for all builds on a single item. Amazons use cta prebuff as standard, sorcs could use memory staff. Not sure what about beta bramble poison prebuff, is it too strong or what. Also not sure is that rule fair to every build actually. Fuzzydodger for example is very very underdog build without good prebuff.

Then there is case-by-case scenario in which we view all builds separately and decide what is fair for prebuff. I asked my questions for sorc. I really like idea that some builds have allowed 1 item prebuff, while others don't have allowed any prebuff. No prebuff is like standard no written rule there days anyway. I don't see anyone to prebuff like mad with exception of ES sorc here and there.

I just thought we might have clear rules about prebuffing to balance pvp even more. Also some old pvp rules I find funny, like have limits to replenish life (wtflol, in LLD replenish means 100x more and is not limited), limited poison damage from charms (again, what for?) etc.
 

Gripphon

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

Hello. Today I'm in mood to say something about current BM rules, at least those presented in first post of this topic.

No potions (except mana potions), mercs, wells, or shrines.
Don't see problem here. I think all active pvp-ers there days follow this rule anyway.

No recasting Cyclone and Bone Armour.
There can be discussion about balancing number of allowed recasting, but then again, should someone count how many times he recasted his armor during intensive duel of FFA match? Don't think so. I'm fine with this rule, you cast it at very start of match and that's it, even if it takes only one hit to take down that armor. Remember, that is 1 bonus hit you will survive. Good enough for me.

No minions that cannot be summoned in town with the exception of Decoy.
Well, maybe. However this doesn't allow some necro to use revive, not like there is any on pvp scene I know of. So, can't say anything about this rule, I follow it precisely.

No Holy Freeze, Decrepify, Slow Missiles, or Bone Prison.
No curse charges (this includes Slow Missiles). Chance to cast is acceptable.


Those two should be connected. If one spell is not allowed, then it's not allowed regardless is it chance to cast or charge or spell. If one spell is allowed, then it's allowed as charge too, why not? However, it should be mentioned there might be additional rule here, like ANY ctc is still allowed as long as it's 5% or lower (Dracul Grasp life tap, Peace slow missiles etc.). Exile is obviously not allowed with those rules (yes, there should be Life Tap as not allowed spell, perhaps something more). Also, don't know how Life Tap vs Slow Missiles stand on bad mannered table, I just know Peace is allowed in low level dueling no problem. I'll leave word to more experienced players about this.

No mass slow (>10%), no mass poison from items (>200), no mass replenish (>25).
Mass slow, agreed, it cripples too much some builds.
No mass poison --> useless. What is this for? I see zero reasons for this rule in these days, perhaps before it meant something.
No mass replenish --> useless. Again, I play LLD where replenish means much much more than in HLD and I absolutely see no problem with 40+ replenish life, especially in HLD. If there is any character that is too powerful with mass replenish (ES sorc? I never saw that issue), then it can be stated that those character/build is not allowed to have more than X replenish, but there is no point in having general rule for all.

My suggestion is to leave mass slow rule as it is and to completely remove other two.

No over absorb. Limit 2 items per element with the standard ban on Rising Sun and Black Oak.
Bad rule IMO, very imbalanced cause it doesn't say what over absorb is. It's much better to have limit on % resist allowed, like 90% or 85% resist to one element. With 2 items per element I can almost completely shut down many casters (with question what is overabsorb?).

75% resist + 20% absorb ring = 85% resist
25% resist + 40% absorb = 85% resist
-100% resist + 40% absorb = 60% resist

It's very easy to calculate those things and will provide more balance than "2 item per element absorb allowed". Let him use more if he wants to, why not. Only thing is to agree upon what should be max resist allowed (over absorb).
18k fireball sorc vs 85% resist ends up in 450 pvp damage (750 for 75% resist), very good.
18k fireball sorc vs 90% resist ends up in 300 pvp damage, that is lolwut to me.

Trapper with 1-12k damage, average 6k damage, with 85% resist ends up on 150 damage, which seems fine. With 90% ends up on 100 damage, which is again lolwut to me.

So, I'm much more comfortable with 85% max resist cause I think 90% cripples too much some of casters turning their damage into something funny. Problem is, if 85% limit is set, then hotspurs and thundergods should be banned cause they go over that limit. No problem for me there, but some might consider one of those items to be fairly common or usual in PvP.
If you agree on 90%, I will accept it, but I personally won't stack over 85% cause it doesn't seem fair to me :)

Also, some items might be banned, like 1.07 LOH. I don't have problem with it as long as your total resist is under accepted limit.

Mana potions are allowed for all characters except ES based sorcs
We all follow this rule anyway.

Additional rule might be from my post above, limiting prebuff.
I'm very into this kind of rule:

* No prebuff allowed with exception of BO from CtA for bowazons and similar builds and Memory Staff for sorcs to prebuff ES.

So, no more several item prebuff for anyone. However I didn't try some builds that might need prebuffing to have at least some chance in pvp world. So, we can add exception for those builds. Perhaps if they keep their prebuff gear in cube in inventory or something if needed.
This rule also means there is no more something like "I'm out of this one, I'll be joining next" while he prebuffs his character. If others don't wait for you it doesn't mean it's ok. That's my opinion about that. It's perfectly fine if someone wants to try something or wants to troll or whatever. But for every FFA or duel match... no. Same goes to all other rules which are meant to be general bad mannered rules.

But I'm aware that this kind of rule might take fun out of pvp for someone who is into it, so... I won't suggest we add any rule like that unless we agree with it. No one is saying anything about that so can't tell anything more.
 
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NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The PvP Thread

Screw the prebuffing in general. For my amazon/bowsin, CTA (and extra arrows) go in cube in inventory.

85% sounds nice, as already discussed a few times. 20% slow (for Fleshripper) doesn't seem that BM, especially not from a lol1pointClayGolem perspective.
 
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