The path of Poison

[ninjakiss]

The path of Poison

my current setup:

lv29 Amazon (normal mode)
strength: about 80
dexterity: about 110
vitality: near base
energy: a bit more than base

weapon: heavy massive crossbow of pestilence
dmg: 21-40
speed: very slow
+60 poison over 6 secs

charm #1: +16 poison over 4 secs
charm #2: +16 poison over 4 secs
charm #3: +10 poison over 3 secs

I read some faqs/stickies/write-ups regarding poison but did not understand some of it. Is it true that (1) if i keep hitting the same monster i'm not letting the poison affect it cus it's resetting the damage (is that right?) and (2) the most powerful poison (highest total damage) negates the other stuff, ie. charms?

I want to know if i'm wasting my time with these charms, or are they actually a benefit. According to my character screen they increase the AR quite a bit.
My other question is what should be my plan of attack? I use bow/crossbow only and don't melee. I try not to use strafe/multi too much cus it's only 75% damage, but it's usually convenient against mobs.

thanks for the advice!!! rop:

 

[ninjakiss]

i'd like to add that i'm currently planning on socketing some perfect emeralds and tal runes for extra poison damage. i know i won't get the really good items until later on in my game. :grin:

 

[crawlingdeadman]

it's hard to decide where to start... welcome to the forums :thumbsup:. with that out of the way, what are your end goals? do you want to be a bow user that specializes in psn damage? that's not a terribly good way to go for various reasons. one being dependence upon lots of charms. if you're going at the game without any gear on hand (known as untwinked or using what you find) then you're relying on finding psn charms frequently and the good ones dont just drop outta the sky.

to kinda help you out a little (i could be wrong here, wrongdayj is the psn expert) nothing 'screws up' poison damage until you get into skills that do it. if you're just getting damage from your charms and gear it all adds up alright and then the duration is figured out somehow (lol, cant remember if it's averaged out or how it all works, but essentially the more charms the better(please someone w/ more poison experience help me out here)).

about the damage lost in multi/strafe. you will attack with multiple arrows a second if set up correctly, this outweighs the loss in damage you take on from using these skills. think of it like shooting one arrow doing 10 damage vs 6 arrows doing 5 each. even though you're doing less per arrow, you're doing a whole lot more overall.

i dont have any idea how a poison charm can add to your ar. it's commonly referred to as the "lying character screen" because in many many instances in diablo the info that comes up there is just totally wrong. that aside, i'm 100% sure that a plain psn charm wouldnt show you increasing or lowering your ar.

 

[ninjakiss]

quote: >>it's hard to decide where to start... welcome to the forums . with that out of the way, what are your end goals? do you want to be a bow user that specializes in psn damage? that's not a terribly good way to go for various reasons. one being dependence upon lots of charms. if you're going at the game without any gear on hand (known as untwinked or using what you find) then you're relying on finding psn charms frequently and the good ones dont just drop outta the sky.<<

as opposed to what? u mean just upping my skill points and having my specialty in fire or ice? actually yeah i want to be a poizon and am patient enuff to find some really good items. what other way is there, if any? thanks for the reply btw! :wave:

what do u mean "you will attack with multiple arrows a second if set up correctly, this outweighs the loss in damage you take on..." ? if 6 of my arrows are doing 5 dmg each as on multi as opposed to 1 arrow doing 10 dmg, isn't that less? also, with poison if i shoot a monster at a rate of 20 poison over 3 seconds, and hit him again before the 3 seconds are up, i don't think i am "doubling" the dmg unless...???

i guess not many people specialize in poison, huh? :cry: Still i'd like to try.

 

[ninjakiss]

okay i pm'd "wrongwayJ" for advice. hopefully he replies, or posts on this thread so aspiring poizons can get educated.

 

[Dacar92]

Wouldn't it be nice to have this updated for current patch? Who wants to do that? :smiley:

http://www.diabloii.net/strategy/x-articles/taopoison.shtml

I am sure there is still a lot of good info there, it is just a little dated.

if 6 of my arrows are doing 5 dmg each as on multi as opposed to 1 arrow doing 10 dmg, isn't that less?

6*5=30
1*10=10





Please do not double post. You can use the edit button for up to an hour after you post. Thanks and welcome to the forums.

 

[Kijya]

First of, diablo 2 runs at a steady 25 frames per second, this is the standard unit you measure the duration of an occurrences in and there is nothing shorter. This means that any action, such as an attack or a hit recovery animation, will have a duration of a number of frames, no half frames or thirds etc.

Most damage types in diablo 2 are instantaneous, and do their damage once the attack hits. Poison, for obvious reasons, have a "duration", this means that it will constantly do damage over time, aka constantly do damage for a number of frames.
The poison damage is thus divided into two parts: a "rate" which tells how much damage is done per frame, and a "duration" which determines for long long the damage will continue to do it's "rate damage per frame" once you've poisoned your target.

By attacking a target who has already been poisoned you will not reduce the damage that he has taken, or will take. You will only reset the "duration" timer, meaning the poison "rate" will be applied for its entire duration from that point.




As for if poison is a good route to take on a untwinked bowzon, I have to say it's not. However, seeing your character stats, and your question here on the forum, may I take it you are a fairly new player? If so I recommend trying it out anyway. It'll be more fun to use trial and error, then it would to have us throw our opinions towards you right from the start.

 

[phool]

treachery is the only source of poison damage you should really consider for pvm. Its poison damage has only a 0.4 second duration so actually works ok with multi etc, which will be attacking around 3 times per second. I have heard a 6 pemerald bow will get a very budget bowa through normal ok though as well. In pvp massing pdscs is more effective though probably fairly widely considered BM afaik.

Don't mix venom and item based poison as all item based poison gets its duration set to .04 seconds, so that 300/8 poison source is actually adding a mere 15 dpa. How poison sources combine depends on what type of poison they are and there are exceptions to the rules so it all gets pretty complicated potentially, but if dealing with item-based poison only it should be pretty simple, the rates are totalled and the durations are averaged of all the seperate sources.

Reapplying poison has no negative effect, it merely extends the duration. It is pretty pointless though.

You know there are a few poison based skills on the javalin tab? If you try and make a purely poison based zon using a bow instead, without a great deal of wealth to draw on, you're going to hate it by the time you hit act 5.

 

[ninjakiss]

dacar92, yes that is the exact write-up i referred to and have questions about. i tried emailing "bkelly" without success. and yes there is no updated info on poizons = (.

kijya: thanks for the info. you pretty much confirmed what i learned. the reason why i asked for advice is because diablo2 is one of those games where you cannot get back 'wasted' points. i like to know facts ahead of time instead of playing with a half-***, shoot'em up mentality. so no that would not be fun for me. so please feel free to throw your opinions at me!

phool: what is pdscs? BM afaik? 'also you say not to mix venom with other poison based items. so my 3 charms are ie, venom, septic, and foul. and my weap is pestilence. so do you mean i have to just get rid of some of the stuff that has the same duration?

in bkelly's write-up, http://www.diabloii.net/strategy/x-articles/taopoison2.shtml , he states that ranged weapons have a duration up to 6 times longer than melee weaps. is there anyone who has actually calculated the poison totalling and averaging you mentioned? if so, please post a link so i could check it out.

yeah i guess i could have gone the javeline route, but i'm already a good deal into the game so i'll try that next time with a different character. 'bkelly' apparently has a convincing view of poizons with ranged weaps. thanks all for the feedback , and keep it coming!

 

[phool]

I was talking about the assassin skill venom. There are a several items with venom charges or procs, grief, treachery, andy's and arach and probably a few others. Venom has a high rate of damage but short duration so is best suited to a build like a bowazon which is capable of reapplying the poison very quickly to pretty much everything in sight.

pdscs stands for poison damage small charms.

That guide is for version 1.09 - a LOT changed in 1.10 so I wouldn't follow it closely, unless of course you're running an older version, but I don't know how much of it is true. I'm sure I've seen a 1.10+ version of the tao of poison, in nec or stats forum, but can't find it, sorry.

 

[Kijya]

kijya: thanks for the info. you pretty much confirmed what i learned. the reason why i asked for advice is because diablo2 is one of those games where you cannot get back 'wasted' points. i like to know facts ahead of time instead of playing with a half-***, shoot'em up mentality. so no that would not be fun for me. so please feel free to throw your opinions at me!

Although d2 doesn't allow you to replace skillpoints, rebuilding can be pretty fast when you know your way around.

In any case:
energy: base
"Insight" runeword or leech should take care of your mana problems.

FA/LF hybrid or a pure version of either should be the best starter builds if you're looking to actually stand a chance in hell without to much problems. Physical bowzons can also manage but will be really hurting for a better bow most of the time, unless you get lucky and find a wws, buriza or something like that.

 

[ninjakiss]

thanks for the tip about mana management and strategy! :wave:
can u tell me what insight rune is? i see tal, eld, and others. is it a combination of some sort?

FA/LA is an unfamiliar term for my newbie skills :grin: . does that mean Fire Amazon/umm...Leech amazon? thank you for the advice again!

 

[crawlingdeadman]

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=325914
look in here

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=464188
this is what he meant. lf/fa = lightning fury/frozen arrow

 

[WrongdayJ]

Ah, the path of Poison. . .my favorite killing method. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the Forums!

I will offer up the following tips with regards to this thread:

1. Try to find items that give poison damage over long durations.
By long I mean 6-10 seconds or longer. If you are using charms/items that
say 'XX poison damage over 3 seconds' dump them. Even if they give 100+ damage over three seconds, you are better off with a long duration charm that gives 30 damage over 10 seconds.

This is because of the way the game calculates poison damage.

Your rate (damage per second) is summed (stacked) for every source of poison you have, but your duration is averaged. So if you have even one poison source that is small, you drag down the power of your poison attack considerably.

2. Try to find items that have a double poison mod.
Example- a Pestilent Long Bow of Anthrax.

Items like this will deliver a stout rate and long duration all by themselves, and these good rate and duration numbers will always help your other poison sources perform better.

3. Once you get into the later difficulties, your killing power will seem to slow. . .it is critical that at this point you seek some 'help' in the form of Treachery, a runeword that grants you the WONDERFUL ability to have Venom added to your arrows, and Trang-Ouls Gloves- as they will give a 25% boost to the Venom when it triggers. Treachery also has the other delicious benefits of 45% increased attack speed and chance to cast Fade (which you will also be needing as a Bowazon). You can drop the other poison sources at this point and roll with just the Venom- fill your backpack with resists and Enhanced Damage charms instead.

4. As far as attacks 'overwriting' each other. . .remember that the poison damage with the highest rate wins.
If your attack has equal to or more damage rate than the poison already in effect on the monster, then yours will take over and 're-set' the duration timer to your rate & duration. If your poison rate is lower than that already in place, then the other damage components of the attack will apply (provided your attack actually hits the target) but the poison will not be applied. SO- if you are playing with a Venom Assassin, Poizon Javazon, or Poison Daggermancer . . .your rate will probably not be higher and they will constantly be cancelling out your poison damage. (Which is probably a good thing, because theirs is WAY powerful, too)

But if you are playing single player or multi-player with non-poison builds this should never be a problem.

Walking the path of poison is not easy, and I do not recommend that you rely solely on it for all of your killing power.

I HIGHLY recommend that you also develop an alternative form of damage (like physical damage or Cold for example).

One of the most fun builds you will ever play is a Strafer using Treachery armor, find yourself a 4 socketed bow and stuff it full of P'Sapphires. . .Cold and Poison play very well together. . .and use a Holy Freeze or Might Merc.


@ Dacar- I am currently almost done with a re-do of the Tao of Poison- updating the older info with the new 1.11b info. I will let you know when I am almost done so you can tell me the proper protocol for submitting it.

 

[ninjakiss]

man, is wrongdayJ the only person who really knows poison? LOL that's some good info, thanks! more questions/comments:

1. how do i make the Treachery runeword?

2. The path of poison is NOT easy, you are right. i'll work on other characters, and will develop other forms of damage.

3. with the setup Treachery armor+ pSapphire x 4 bow, what is the effect on monsters? my guess: the monster freezes for a duration of time while the poison slowly (or quickly) kills them. in the meantime i can continue to shoot arrows to kill them faster...?

4. In regards to dealing out poison, what your opinion on multi vs strafe?

5. Hail the Tao of Poison! There needs to be an updated one, badly.

 

[Dacar92]

@ Dacar- I am currently almost done with a re-do of the Tao of Poison- updating the older info with the new 1.11b info. I will let you know when I am almost done so you can tell me the proper protocol for submitting it.

Thank you. Looking forward to reading it.

 

[WrongdayJ]

. . .man, is wrongdayJ the only person who really knows poison?

No, There are actually many others here who know quite a bit about Poison. This Site is nice that way. It has alot of very helpful folks.

1. how do i make the Treachery runeword?

Find yourself a NICE three socketed armor. . .take your time looking for one. Then when you have one you like (make sure it is a 'grey-lettered' socketed armor, not a magical 'blue-lettered' one) Put the following runes in it in this order:

First Shael, then Thul, then Lem - and there you go - Treachery!

3. with the setup Treachery armor+ pSapphire x 4 bow, what is the effect on monsters? my guess: the monster freezes for a duration of time while the poison slowly (or quickly) kills them. in the meantime i can continue to shoot arrows to kill them faster...?

Exactly right. It's my favorite way to kill. Slow or Freeze 'em then watch the poison do it's thing. Sometimes (if you're lucky) they'll shatter from the poison damage while they're frozen whithout you actually hitting them anymore. It's truly an art. Any Ham-handed Bloke can Spam Hammers and kill things, but to use skill, patience, and kill using multiple damage types is taking your game skill up several notches indeed. This type of set-up is Hell Viable and works. Wanna take your game even further- have a switch weapon be a wand with charges of Dim Vision on it. Now you're killing like a champ. Blind, poisoned, slow/frozen things aren't much of a threat. Of course you still have to deal with those Champion/Unique things, though. . .

4. In regards to dealing out poison, what your opinion on multi vs strafe?

I won't get into that here- but I will say that both skills have their place and you really should be using both at diffrent times and places throughout the game. I personally wouldn't max Multi, but I would max strafe. But that's just me.

5. Hail the Tao of Poison! There needs to be an updated one, badly.

:azn: I'm working on it. . .