The most efficient combonation of Two Builds for Rush and MF? der=

lextalionis

Diabloii.Net Member
The most efficient combonation of Two Builds for Rush and MF?

When trying to make the "best" two person team, these are the goals

1. Staying alive
2. High Damage
3. Dealing with immunities
4. Magic Find/Rush other characters/challenge
5. Speed
6. Fun

When looking at items and builds, most builds can find a way to stay alive, even with two really tweaked for max damage mage characters will survive because of mercs and tactics. But some defensive minded skills when added to your tactics actually increase your speed at getting through things. If you don't have to be as careful or can make the creatures do exactly what you want to do you can move quicker

Only a few attacks are high damage. This also deals with how fast you can attack and area of effect (ie being able to attack more than one character at a time). This is a huge factor in choosing your characters. Because at least one needs to be able to dish out a lot of damage to a lot of monsters at once.

Immunities are a huge problem. The more you increase your damage in one element the fewer points with synergies you have to put into a different element to attack with. This is best dealt with Magic Damage spells which monsters are rarely immune to and by having each of the characters specialize in different immunities. This can also be dealt with by tactics.

The purpose for playing Dii is either to rush characters, MF for high level items or to try some challenging build. This thread isn't talking about trying out a build that isn't highly effective or made to kill quickly. But if you have a highly teamworked team of two you will want to use it for something and MF and rushing are both good goals. MF can be very nice because it can allow you to have only a single element of damage between the two characters and still be ok, since you are primarially worried about killing speed and can skip areas where immunity is a problem. But I think most of us want to be able to rush and MF with a highly synergized pair. So now we know what the goal is: A team of two characters that can handle everything or almost everything in the game (that's why I think the third element of damage is less important) and that can magic find ----> quickly.

Speed. -- This is the most important. This is what judges how good we are at the combonation of everything above us in the game. Its our measure of efficiency. This is where skills like Teleport become very important. But that's also why Enigma is so important, it gives all characters that element of speed. It lets you bypass things altogether. But its also the combonation of being safe and allowing you to move quickly and being able to kill quickly where you want to kill and when you get to your targets.

Fun. Don't forget that we want the whole thing to be fun. Fun for both characters. And this maybe why playing a Conviction Paladin may be a problem. Because while your aura is very imporant. I think it'd be easy for you to die of bordom trying to figure out why else you are playing other than to be an walking aura producer and possibly a tank/shield.

Non-Damage Producing Team SKills you can't get from Items

Amazons -- Multishot with Knockback (no one can really get that, charges are too small in number on gloves and weapons to be of any use)
Paladin -- Conviction
Necro -- Lower Resist at higher levels and at hit causes to cast other than Pus Spitter (useless weapon and low chance to cast), Bone Walls and Prisons, lots of minions for distractions, Clay Golem.
Barb-- Taunt, High Level BO, Horking (This is the only +MF ability in the game)

Biggest Damage Spells

Assassin
DTalon with lots of CB
Traps with BF and CB

Amazon
Strafe - quick decent damage
Multi-shot- Its a lot of damage, just not to a single target
LF - Requires multiple targets to be effective

Barbs (none)
Possibly Berserk at high levels
Concentration helps to be a better tank

Druid
Windy???
Fury with CB

Paladin
Hammers <-- Probably best damage in the game
Zeal
Cleric, only to undead, but very good at damage to Undead

Necro
Corspe Explosion
Bone Spirit and Spear
Tons of minions -- they add up, and they are great defense

Sorceress
Meteor w/FBall
Blizzard
Orb -- less damage than blizzard
Chainlightning in the right situation
Enchant in the right situations

Powers anyone can have from items:
Druid -- Spirits
Barb -- BO and BC are achievable on a runeword, Taunt from charges?
Necro Curses are usually available, Amp Damage, Lower Resists, Decryptify
Paladins -- Many Auras can be gotten from Mercs and items
Sorceres -- Enchant Charges from a Demon Limb Club, Static on Cresent Moon
Assassin -- CoS charges are available

IMPORTANT ITEMS: Items that become even more important because they or their charges effect more than one player and or his minions
CRESENT MOON, HEART OF THE OAK, DOOM, CALL TO ARMS, AZUREWRATH, EXILE, WISP GENERATOR, BEAST, Lower Resist Wand, Tyrant Limb, Tomb Reaver, Reaper's Toll,

I think that these are what we are looking at. I"m not sure what should be added to these lists and what may be wrong. But I think all of this should be taken into account and then examine synergies

Like a:
BH Pally and a Multi-zon and LF
MeteorOrb Sorceress and a Conviction Pally
Enchantress and Multizon with LF
Enchantress and Necro with minions and LR
BH Pally and a BH Meditation/Utility Pally
LS/CBS Trapsin with CB from BF and a Conviction Paladin
Multi-zon with LF and a Conviction Pally
Fire/Blizzard Sorceress with Bone Necro for walls and Lower Resists
Amazon Hybrid Multishot/Lightning Fury (pierce) with Bone Necro for Walls.
Blizzard Sorceress with a Meteor Sorceress
Zeal Necro with all of Trang's Items, since this would have FM??? With an Enchantress

Big Questions:
How does a Conviction Pally attack? -- Cleric??? Fist of Heavens with HS synergy? I just see this guy being a sidekick with no purpose. I love the idea of getting Conviction onto the playing field, but I dread the idea of being the guy that has to bring it to the playing field.

How good is the extra mf from Horking by a Barb??? Also don't forget Taunt with him. This drasticly changes the AI on creatures and can help a great deal.

For real fun, what if one of the characters also had a high level Enchantress-- and brought her into the game every twelve minutes or so when Enchant wore off??? This would make pre-buffing to shame. This tactic might also work for a high level BO, BC, etc Barb since they now have drasticlly increased timers.

How imporant is a tank? Can be recastable minions, possibly even charges, or hireable Mercs
 

Dodgy_geezah

Diabloii.Net Member
A few comments, I like a lot of your ideas for parties. A conviction pally should break almost all immunes (apart for phys and magic) and will party well with any sorc or elemental druid.
A barb with a good weapon has a really good AOE spell in whirlwind, kills quickly and can double the hp+mana of your party.
Knockback with a zon is easy, socket her bow with a nef rune.

That's about all I can think of at the mo.
 

lextalionis

Diabloii.Net Member
Dodgy_geezah said:
A few comments, I like a lot of your ideas for parties. A conviction pally should break almost all immunes (apart for phys and magic) and will party well with any sorc or elemental druid.
A barb with a good weapon has a really good AOE spell in whirlwind, kills quickly and can double the hp+mana of your party.
Knockback with a zon is easy, socket her bow with a nef rune.

That's about all I can think of at the mo.
Nef the bow or knockback SAFETY crafted gloves work for the Zon, but you really can't get Multishot on other characters. There just aren't enough charges on the items and the levle is too low. But multishot is an area of effect physical spell that can be defensive too. It combines well with added enchant damage.
 

niomosy

Diabloii.Net Member
lextalionis said:
Enchantress and Necro with minions and LR
I've done this. It's loads of fun. Loading the Enchantress up with tons of +skills means you'll have plenty of fire damage for a loooong time. Considering the skellies tank pretty damn well throughout the game, you should have some pretty damn fast killing ability.

The Enchantress is still useful as a fighter in the game which is nice (though I was doing this myself with 2 comps so didn't get to have fun with both). There's a bit of slowdown as you'll need to get your army then get the all enchanted. It should speed up runs, though.
 

lextalionis

Diabloii.Net Member
niomosy said:
I've done this. It's loads of fun. Loading the Enchantress up with tons of +skills means you'll have plenty of fire damage for a loooong time. Considering the skellies tank pretty damn well throughout the game, you should have some pretty damn fast killing ability.
QUOTE]

I'm going to float the idea of an Enchantress popping in. Loading up one of the melee characters with a load of fire damage then popping out. Allowing for a high level enchnat to be cast on one character, but allowing the other character not to be an enchant sorceress.

The two characters I see benefitting most from Enchant are:

Minion Necro
Multishot Zon

Both of these characters have skills that can drastically multiply the number of hits Enchant can do on the board. Multiplying very nice Enchant damage by 20 Multishot arrows and 40 Skeletal minions is very interesting.
 

lextalionis

Diabloii.Net Member
Amiral said:
won't any sorc with a conviction zealot do? except melee and enchantress...
I grant you that would be a very strong team. Conviction is a skill that can only be gotten from a Pally. But who would want to play a Conviction Pally????
 

Amiral

Diabloii.Net Member
beacause (I, notice I) I like paladins, and because you have that green aura... and you would hit most the times...
 

chubbypuppy

Diabloii.Net Member
Summon necro and sorc

I would imagine that a summon necro with maxed lower resist and a blizzard sorc would be the fastest and the safest. Anything that's cold immune can easily be taken care of by the skellies, especially once the necro switches to amp damage. Anything not cold immune against maxed blizzard and lower resist? Ice cubes...

Like a previous poster said, I would hate to be a conviction paladin. Even if I am zealing, I'm weak in comparison. A summon necro can still have fun though, and he can also corpse explosion to speed things also.
 

Stubbs

Diabloii.Net Member
my vote for the most flexibility would be a meteorb sorc and an ik barb. The IK barb offers a high lvl bo to keep the meteorb sorc good and active. She can have over 500mf with her best gear on which gives you a high lvl mf without having to switch all the time. The sorc can handle any immunity since she runs FO/Meteor/Fireball. She should have a holy freeze merc or if you can get doom, a defiance merc. That way the immune to cold will still freeze and you can unload your fire on them. The IK barb isn't the fastest killing barb, but he kills everything. He deals out alot of elemental dmg from the maul and the entire set just make him a fast moving tank. The barb hardly dies at all and can handle any monster in the game. Also if you are gonna have a two man team for rushing, you can use the barbs bo and have a demon limb around to enchant the lowly lvl1 and watch his lvls rise when he goes to the dark wood with a dagger to kill superfast. So you got a multi element sorc who can tele all over the place and handle much dmg, and the IK barb just never dies, dishes out solid melee dmg, and the BO is just pure gravy. And for pit running, sorc kills fast and barb follows horkin everything. It seems that me and my friend find more in the pit from tals to ik armors and levis from horking and not the killing.

A hammerdin with an enigma would be a real good choice in replacement over the meteorb, but there has to be some sort of tele involved with rushing or mfing with speed. I would probably use a hammerdin with enigma more often, but I can get more mf from the sorc without losing too much in valuable skill. But put it this way, if I am gonna do runs with a group, I rather have a barb handy than conviction or necro curses.
 

lextalionis

Diabloii.Net Member
Stubbs said:
But put it this way, if I am gonna do runs with a group, I rather have a barb handy than conviction or necro curses.
I agree that the Barb has been very undervalued as a team member and for his help in a party. Don't forget Taunt as a one point wonder skill to turn ranged fighters into meleers. Horking-- Impressive extra magic find. And Barbs do make darn fine tanks.
 

st-hearts

Diabloii.Net Member
lextalionis said:
Big Questions:
How does a Conviction Pally attack? -- Cleric??? Fist of Heavens with HS synergy? I just see this guy being a sidekick with no purpose. I love the idea of getting Conviction onto the playing field, but I dread the idea of being the guy that has to bring it to the playing field.
The Famine runeword + Vengeance is a decent option. However, it is also quite expensive considering the runes that have to go in it.

To be honest, any time you put a Conviction Paladin with a high damage build like a Sorceress, they will ALWAYS end up as a support character. Practically nothing can match the pure damage of something like 7k fireball at 9 frames (<21k damage/second). I've seen pure Fire sorcs go up to 17k firebolt alone (<51k damage/second).

If I were to make a pure Conviction Paladin, he would have the standard Medic setup (20 Holy Bolt, 20 Prayer, 1 Meditation) + (20 Conviction). That way, he has the ability to basically make the Sorc a permanent tank, with the added feature of recharging her mana/life between encounters.

Playing as a Cleric is rather relaxing. Depends on how you like to play the game, I suppose.

~Hearts~
 

Anksun

Diabloii.Net Member
An hammerdin is a tank (1750-2000 life is enough for hammerdin, way enough) that will do the best damage in the game with max resists. This is with good magic find on him already... let's say 250

Now you can pick any other caracther who can wear the most magic find possible to complete the party... A sorceress would be good i guess since high magic find would still allow her to do high enough damage to get kills...
 

st-hearts

Diabloii.Net Member
Anksun said:
An hammerdin is a tank (1750-2000 life is enough for hammerdin, way enough) that will do the best damage in the game with max resists. This is with good magic find on him already... let's say 250

Now you can pick any other caracther who can wear the most magic find possible to complete the party... A sorceress would be good i guess since high magic find would still allow her to do high enough damage to get kills...
Also, if you are really tight with points on the Hammerdin, you can get 20 Conviction onto him. Since the Hammerdin build usually has a bevy of +skill items, Conviction will be boosted to a decent level.

~Hearts~
 

niomosy

Diabloii.Net Member
lextalionis said:
niomosy said:
I've done this. It's loads of fun. Loading the Enchantress up with tons of +skills means you'll have plenty of fire damage for a loooong time. Considering the skellies tank pretty damn well throughout the game, you should have some pretty damn fast killing ability.
QUOTE]

I'm going to float the idea of an Enchantress popping in. Loading up one of the melee characters with a load of fire damage then popping out. Allowing for a high level enchnat to be cast on one character, but allowing the other character not to be an enchant sorceress.

The two characters I see benefitting most from Enchant are:

Minion Necro
Multishot Zon

Both of these characters have skills that can drastically multiply the number of hits Enchant can do on the board. Multiplying very nice Enchant damage by 20 Multishot arrows and 40 Skeletal minions is very interesting.
You'd actually be a lot less than 40 skelly minions. Even with slvl 28, I've got 11 skellies. They still womp, though. It's generally not worth the effort to enchant revives unless the Enchantress will remain in the game.

Skelly Necro / multi zon enchanted would be a pretty damn sweet setup, though. That would pretty well clean the Pit's without problems ;)

I should really do this with my summoner and enchantress once he's ready for pit runs.
 
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