Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

The Lion's Toes #9

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by Flux, Mar 9, 2004.

  1. Flux

    Flux Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    6,710
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    472
    The Lion's Toes #9

    http://diabloii.net/columnists/lions-toes09.shtml

    Leon's 9th column is entitled "Walls of Fire, Balls of Ice" and it talks about why the sorceress is the most unbalanced and worst character in the game. Go read it before you flame.
     
  2. lfd

    lfd IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    It's a shame the author couldn't keep a consistent argument going through a single paragraph. The point might have been better made without resorting to taunting of the readers and suggesting that if we disagree, we're wrong because he's the one that is "published".

    Sadly the writing style irks me too much for me to have any sympathy with the issues he's raised, regardless of whether they're valid or not.

    Edit: Oh, and the quick reply box (and also this edit post box) are still an utter pain to use on Mozilla, defaulting as they do to black text on a black background. Any chance of this being fixed at any point in the next seven years at all? Some of us don't like touching Internet Explorer with a bargepole.
     
  3. Ferrous

    Ferrous IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    421
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    233
    Weaker than some of the previous articles by Leon....but not a bad one. I like the points, but they don't seem well developed. My one complaint -
    Stop picking on the druid! :grrr:
     
  4. Fearox

    Fearox IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    883
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Cookie cutters are what he's talking about, right? Well, I think that kind of builds will be in rpg games always. Why? Because some people will always build the most powerful characters possible. Some people like it that way, and I don't have any problems with that. What I don't like is the attitude about "right" or "wrong" builds.
    For example: Hammerdin is a very powerful character relying on only one skill (well, concentration also) and if you don't like the idea of the hammerdin you can build something else. I tend to avoid popular builds myself, but not because I think they're over powered or so. I just want to have a somewhat unique character (even if that's near impossible).

    Even though I don't agree with the author I think it's a good article. The best discussions are born out of the fact that people dare give their opinion even though they know they're gonna upset some people.
     
  5. Nword

    Nword Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Prolly not supreme writing. And I don't care.

    It was better than the last one (significantly), and I enjoyed the read. Good Job :thumbsup:
     
  6. d2hasdied

    d2hasdied IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Don't see too many people going around using armegeddon and hurricane LOL have you even played 1.10? And synergies wow have you seen a fully pumped orb or blizzard in action? 1500 dmg orbs, and just plain sick on the blizzard. Synergies try to force the player to use the one ultimate build, not force them to shy away. And your great 1 skill firewall sorceress that your dreaming of. ONE SKILL WONDER character, you are a major hypocrite. You should have just complained that firewall sucks and wasn't made to be one of the 1 skill wonders.

    And the druid encased by the swirling winds is teleporting all over the bloodmoor using enigma and lvl 40 hurricane with max synergies doing 50i90i560958709dmg per hit

    really weak article and writer couldn't even keep true to his own message.
     
  7. Fearox

    Fearox IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    883
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    What do you mean?
     
  8. Ferrous

    Ferrous IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    421
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    233
    I'm not sure the author is talking about cookie cutter builds so much as builds that completely abuse one particular skill. There are builds that don't rely on one particular skill, but at least two skills, some more, to make very powerful builds. Variations on builds can yield less cookie-cutter type builds, but the strong points in classes will still carry through. My point? I have none.
     
  9. SuggestiveName

    SuggestiveName IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,820
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    168
    If I wanted to wait 30 seconds between casting spells I would play a turn based rpg. Diablo is about action. And clicking really fast.
     
  10. Jak

    Jak IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    His point, as I see it, is that Diablo is not being consistent within the genre of RPGs. His example (D&D) illustrates the standard:

    Caster character at high levels = ultimate ownage
    Caster character while levelling = significantly harder than levelling other classes.

    His use of the sorceress as the scapegoat is merely a reaction to these facts:

    1) The sorceress has the most damaging elemental skills
    2) The sorceress has aimable spells
    3) The sorceress' most powerful spells are not handicapped by timers (by this I mean that any spell can be constantly on the screen)

    Hurricane is the large vortex of cold damage, which rarely goes over 1500. Tornado is the big damage dealer.

    His point was that there is a level of generalisation to the sorceress, as her masteries and spells can combine to create an effective dual element sorc. There's even some talk od a 1.10 tri-element sorc. A similar level of generalisation is not possible with the other characters.
     
  11. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2003
    Messages:
    2,815
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    they i understood it is that DnD mages had big damage spells, but couldn't cast them very often because of cost. d2's casting delay is more of an homage to these older spells, rather than an actual impediment to its use.

    in my opinion, he's right and wrong:

    right: d2 is nothing like DnD.

    wrong: there is no reason for D2 to resemble DnD.
     
  12. SnowDrake

    SnowDrake IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2003
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    122
    This post will be pretty much about the comparison to DnD...

    In DnD, the mages do not have mana or whatnot, they memorize spells. Each time you rest, you can memorize a certain number of spells depending on your level. A high level mage (say level 15 or so) could cast a level 5 spell maybe 3 or 4 times, then cast several level one spells).

    What is the difference? DnD is a true RPG, Diablo 2 is an Rpg/Action, more action really, just some small rpg elements, therefore it is not comparable.

    If you want a game that offers you rpg style play, then play neverwinter nights, or morrowind, or Baldur's Gate 2 (a personal favorite of mine). If I'm in the mood for a real rpg, I play Baldur's Gate 2. When I am feeling more braindead and don't want to think and actually pay attention/have patience, I play Diablo 2.

    Diablo 2 simply isn't meant to be an RPG.
     
  13. [FLS]prozerran

    [FLS]prozerran IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    I strongly think that 1.10 patch actually made players to build cookie cutter characters. The introduction of synergy system, much tougher and dangerous monsters in hell, and much of the new/improved elite uniques and runewords made a casual character useless when he/she steps in hell. Right now any characters need really good gear to consistently survive in hell, and imagine what happens if they nerf the cookie cutter builds. Everyone without the best possible items will not be able to venture in hell at all.

    Besides that, D2 had always been an item finding game. Are you happier when you killed this monster or leveled up, or when you found a ber rune? And along with the magic find system, if one want to have a character viable in hell, one must find good items (at least a couple of elite uniques usually), and he/she must find it by countlessly killing some bosses again and again until the items are found. Earlier in patch 1.09, only dumb builds required the best items to be effective, whereas now, you need better equipment even for your cookiecutter build.

    Think about windforce. It used to be the ultimate weapon for physical dmg bowazon, but right now they are a minimum requirement for same zon to survive in hell. Or the IK set. Or titans. Or occy/shako. The list goes on forever. 1.10 demands the best equipment to survive. This is how this game is like. You can imagine any sub-par builds that can survive well in later stages of the game?
     
  14. det

    det IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,092
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Hm..the way I see it, the game still allows me the choice to build an all powerful single attack character (orb sorc who has no way to call a CI however) or build a character that is fun while it last but can never see the end of the game on his own (unless fitted with über gear) It is up to me as the player to make that choice..and after becoming a Guardian with a "cookie cutter" Skelliemancer and Orb sorc, I have now chosen to play a Warcry Barb, a Bow Enchantress and a Shockwave bear. I enjoy playing with them in as many areas a possible..and often solo. Others enjoy endless Baal or Mephruns. Each to their own :LOL:

    @[FLS]prozerran: Builds without l33t equipment that can survive and solo hell? Plaque zons, Skelliemancers, Trapsins - to name but 3.
     
  15. Brother Laz

    Brother Laz IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    165
    [repost from email]

    In the Diablo 2 modscene, the suggestions you made about ultimate abilities and long delays have already been tried many times, and everyone found out the same thing: it never works.

    Seven Lances, the formerly famous 1.09 balance mod, now stuck in that same 1.09 hellhole because they refuse to upgrade, had the same featu... ehm, problem in the first few patches. Lightning strike - that useless amazon spear skill - had a timer of multiple seconds. All of the assassin trap skills had timers. Everything had timers. The result was that everyone used only level 1 and level 6 skills. It was pointless to invest 20 points into something you'd only get to use every five seconds.

    Then they tried removing all the timers and giving all high level spells about 200 mana cost. The exact same thing happened, except a few people here and there did use the high level skills at level 1 for a cheaper mana cost and spammability. Great improvement.
    :clap:

    Fast rewind to Sirian, the formerly famous guy who took a firebolt sorc to Nightmare Diablo in classic 1.05, and this was before the days of synergies, linear fire mastery, increasing returns on spells, etc etc. He quit after LoD, because (and I agree) the timers ruined it.

    Sure, it may not be very realistic to be able to spam cast frozen orb, but (and I agree) timers removed a lot of strategy from the game. Back in classic when you could fill the screen with hydras and spam 3 orbs per second but each of these did about 50 damage, you could kill just as well as after LoD with the timers and tenfold increased damage, but you needed a couple of seconds to fill the screen or spam orbs, which rendered you vulnerable to counterattack. Thanks to the timers, it's now run-click-run-run-run-click-run-run. Which, along with Holy Cheese Mercsâ„¢, is the main reason sorcs never die in LoD. Less realistic alright, but it was much more fun before all this timer crap.

    Who cares about realism? You can cast lightning when you're holding a 2-h axe, you can cast a frozen orb without gibbing yourself, you can summon a skeleton from a pile of dead gnats, you can fire a molten boulder and enemies don't step aside and let it pass, you can cast an armageddon and somehow take no damage from all the meteors falling on you, you can turn into a werewolf and beat the enemies over the head with your Buriza. Whether you can cast high level spells often or not doesn't make all that much difference.

    As for the comparison with DnD mages. I doubt the DnD system would work at all in D2 - it never works in other RPGs either. See Neverwinter Nights, aka Rest-At-Every-Corner-To-Recharge-Spells-And-Then-Spam-Them-At-The-Next-Mobâ„¢.

    [rant]

    I do think the low durations on some spells are a bit silly though. Firewall and blizzard in particular. Would it be so hard to remove the timer, extend the duration to 30 seconds and make it so that you can't have more than x of them running at the same time. Presto. But I guess a company that puts in Enigma and Shaftstop and thinks they're fine would probably consider timers perfectly fine too.

    [/rant]
     
  16. Shade

    Shade IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,412
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Indeed, with all these Uniques and Sets you keep finding, why should any of the characters have skills at all? Surely all you have to do is hit Baal once with the Really Big Stick of Pwnage!111onetwo and the game is over, right?

    The flaw, if any, is that the characters' level 30 skills vary wildly between all-destroyingly powerful (sorc, barb) to one-point wonders (Necro's Revive).

    It is rather pointless to compare D&D to D2, since you won't see a whole lot of roleplaying in D2 (well, unless you count illiteracy in some Barbarians, but that's usually not intentional RPing...), and it's not a turn-based system either. You don't have the option of sitting around a campfire, roasting a Fallen on a spit, whilst regaining your magical strength for the next day's killing.

    If my memory serves me correctly, the cast timers in D2 now were in fact an effort to reduce the graphical overload when a bunch of sorcs/amazons/whoever used all their graphics-intensive skills at once. Since they couldn't be cast quite as often, the damage went up...

    Anyway, I'm rambling now and I've forgotten what I was originally posting about, so I'll shut up now... :)
     
  17. kuza

    kuza IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    42
    No screw that. If he wants to go back to playing D&D with a book and some dice, he can do that. Diablo is a HACK AND SLASH speed game. The faster and more intense the battle, the more fun you have. The BEST times are when you have 8 players goign all out against baals minions. People dying, people trying to steal loot. Who doesn't like being in the "$hit" when all hell is breaking loose? You want me to WW once through thre pack, then stand back and slash a few times before WWing again??? Or to cast 15 different spells just to kill one monster?

    This is DIABLO, it's not D&D with your loser firends in your basement, with the one kid who thinks he's god because he's the "Dongeon master". hahah
     
  18. theds

    theds IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2004
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Pot to Kettle, Pot to Kettle, come in Kettle <hhhk>
    This is Kettle. Go ahead, Pot. <hhhk>
    Pot to Kettle, Pot to Kettle... You're black! <hhhk>
    :scratch:
    Uh,... Roger that. <hhhk>

    While no fan of D&D per se, RPGs are not completely pervaded by kids with no life, although I can understand how some one such as yourself would think that, since that is probably all you've seen (since that is probably all you are). If all you can do is throw crap at things you don't understand, maybe you should consider leaving your computer for longer than it takes to run to the kitchen or the toilet. Perhaps even see what all that green stuff outside the house is, or what's causing all that light out there.
     
  19. kuza

    kuza IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    42
    yeah, ok man. You been waiting to use the kettle/pot analogy? My point was, this is a real time action game, not a turn based game like we used to play as kids when there was no other choice. If he wants it to go back to the 80s he can pick up "Pools of radience" or something.

    And I can be as insulting as I want, did you read his last 2 paragraphs? And I quote:
    "I don’t expect much agreement on this issue. Too many people appear to be far too fond of their one-skill-wonders (Whirlwind Barb, Orb Sorceress, Fury Druid, that strange man with the spinning hammers, etc). I also suspect that many lack the patience for such things as ‘longer casting-timers’ when playing an action game. But my beliefs, fragile and silly though they may be, will live on regardless.

    Because I’m the writer here, and the one with the outspoken opinion. Therefore I’m right and you’re wrong. "

    So don't fret on me for being insulting when he started it. And so you know, adults still playing dice/turn based D&D are on the lower side of the social pole. If you know people who still do this, then you'll know 95% can't make friends outside that grouping.

    What I find even more amusing, is that you used the kettle/pot analogy on me, and then, hypocritically, make your own assumptions about my life. Quite ironic.
     
  20. ZeChiken

    ZeChiken IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I actually agree with him...
    Some skills are just over-powered (FO, WW, etc...)

    I mean it's not normal that a barb can just come in and just kill everything with a couple WWs... Or that a sorc can clear just about any lvl with FOs...

    I think they should equal out the skills and beaf up the monsters... So that it's actually usefull to be a group of 5-6 people killing in the same area... And that you still have a bit of difficulty...

    I'll be happy when I stop seeing tons of 1-2 player games and 4-5 high player games on B.net...
     

Share This Page