Galabab
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
I drew an alien too!
[img=http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/214/myalienad3.th.jpg]
I drew an alien too!
[img=http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/214/myalienad3.th.jpg]
The Limit of the Human Mind
- Thread starter HegemonKhan
- Start date
AeroJonesy
Diabloii.Net Member
HegemonKhan
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
i wasn't saying that infra-red (heat) is not dangerous. i'm jsut saying it's less "strong" or less "dangerous" than than a shorter wavelength like ultra violet or even worse gamma ray or the worst of all background radiation.
obviously infra-red (heat) is still dangerous. ever touched fire? burn ouch! not good! but let's go past infra-red (heat) to an even longer wavelength, microwaves like in a microwave. a microwave can't even burn u like infra-red (heat) like fire can. let's go to an even longer wavelength (the longest wavelength we know, as far as i know), radiowaves. radio waves can't hurt u at all, except to only a few body parts that are designed to detect radio waves like the ear (inner ear, coreculae ?) and your stomach (digestive tract). but this certainly won't kill u. now let's take x-rays (they have shorter wave lengths than UV but longer wavelengths than gamma rays). x-rays are very dangerous. that's why u have to wear lead vest because after a certain amount of exposure level it'll kill u. now let's take gamma rays (your nuclear bomb), that way worse than infra-red (fire) could ever be. now let's take the shortest wavelength that we know (as far as i know) background radiation ("space radiation"). see what happens if an astronaut doesn't have his space suit on and he is exposed to background radiation. instant death.
the theory why insects or bacteria or viruses can survive radiation better than humans is because their bodies and thus organs are smaller. this makes it harder for the radiation or maybe less room for the radiation to infiltrate and destroy (change) the organs, cells, dna. maybe it's akin to dilution level. it's been awhile so i can't exactly remember the theory behind it.
btw (by the way), a cochroach is no more resistant to radiation than any other insect. again, the theory is, it is because of the small size.
i don't wanna go into more detail, since it get's into more heavy physics that the general readers may not like.
i don't wanna explain about wave lengths and stuff...like how light can bend and why it can bend and why it can bend around some things better and some things not as much..etc... AM vs FM vs the new XM radio wavelengths and such... why the shorter wavelengths are more deadly...etc... take a physics class 101...
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and for what it's worth:
burnt or worse vamporized from fire/heat/infra-red: this is simply a physical change. your solid state to a liquid state if the heat-fire-infra-red melts u. or your solid state to a gas state if the fire-heat-infra-red vaporizes u. it doesn't take much energy to cause a physical change. it takes much more energy to cause a chemical change. a chemical change requires enough energy to break down the chemical bonds and/or re-form them differently. this takes more energy. because radiowaves and microwaves and infrared have such long wavelengths, they ahve very little "power" or energy. they aren't that dangerous to u compared to shorter wavelengths with much more energy. fire-heat-infra-red can cause some chemical change of course. burning is a chemical change. but in burning, the cells (usually your skin cells) are simple destroyed-damaged. also, even with fire, the fire is so weak that if u don't stay prolonged in the fire, the fire is only able to destroy your outermost cll layer (humans have 3 cell layers). that's pretty weak when fire can only damage the outermost cell layer. not very powerful. of course there's different types of fires. some types of fires can burn all 3 skin layers (i think this is "3rd degree burns", the worst type).
but simply damaging cells is one thing. but having the energy like UV and shorter wavelengths (x-rays, gamma rays, background radiation) to actually break apart and even put back together the chemical bonds at the molecular or even atomic level that's quite something else that fire can't even come close to. cancer is the weakest form of this damage. x-ray, gamma ray, background radiation don't slowly kill u with cancer that comes from UV, they instantly kill u, because your cells and dna are completely altered-mutated beyond being capable of maintaining a living breathing life form (like a human).
of course you are dead in both cases, but ignoring this, fire is much less "dramatic or deadly or powerful" than mutation caused by shorter wavelengths like UV, x-ray, gamma-rays, and background radiation.
it takes much less energy to destroy a person, it takes much more energy to destroy the smaller parts of a person like his cells or even his dna.
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i don't even wanna try to think about what a gamma ray would do to u, if it had as much energy as that is needed for fire (infra-red or "heat") to be able to vaporize u.....it would be beyond sickening...
your first point is my point. a true alien is outside our perception of the universe/existance. it's of another dimension that does not have the same "specs" of our world, with spacial dimensions like u said: legs that go down, antennae that go up etc... all "life" in this "world" (the world that we know/perceive with gravity and forces and volume; physics.. etc...) is the same. if we find "new" life it'll be like a klingon. i klingon IS a human merely with different features. or it'll be the classical collection "alien", a human child in size with green skin and insect antennae sticking out of its head. instead of a truly alien or different life form.Interesting, now, where do we begin...
So if I were to draw a chair, just a chair, would that satisfy your criteria? Or does the chair have legs, even though they are not the legs of what we consider a "living" thing. Either a chair would be a good solution, because it is NOT in any way a bunch of body parts from various animals, or there's a flaw in the rules.
The thing is, think of an item, creature, whatever, regardless of what it is. Also, let's assume you did not think of vacuum, because an alien can under no circumstance be just vacuum.
If the "alien" has something to stand on, we can always interpret it as legs. If it doesn't have legs, then it will have its mass in a more uniform shape, what we interpret as a body. If the pointy things were going upwards, then it would be antennae, scales, etc etc.
You will never get away from this fact, chairs have legs, mountains have feet, planes have bodies etc.
We can't refrain from using geometrical figures we've seen, or might have seen, before. That would be impossible, since every geometrical figure possible in three (or less) dimensions WILL fall under the category "might have seen". The only way to draw something nobody has ever seen before would be drawing it in dimensions not visible to us. I'm not sure I agree that there are 11+ dimensions, but IF there were more than those visible to us, and someone could draw something in them, it would be something noone has ever seen before.
Unfortunately, the artist would get no credit, because we can't see his work anyway...
This is just a question of definition. If gravity is the alien, then you actually did nothing but suggest a new word for it. Nothing new here,
gravity is not the same word in every language. If you want to pretend that a natural force is a living creature, sure, but then pretty much everything, atoms, quarks, apples, everything can be defined as living. That is, also, just rewriting definitions, because it would just lead to another describing word for what we today consider living creatures.
Luck has nothing to do with it, we (humans) simply wouldn't exist in the first place if our environment wasn't shielded enough from what is dangerous to us. We could have existed as something else, of course. Darwin explained that pretty good.
Not sure if I agree with the uv-is-more-deadly theory. On earth, to us, sure, but in general it isn't that certain.
The uv-light gives you cancer, alright. But imagine living on the planet venus. You wouldn't have time worrying about the uv-light because the heat would burn you up. Everything here is relative to your set of DNA.
Cockroaches are not hurt by the radioactive radiation from nuclear bombs, but they might have other weaknesses. Also, I'm pretty sure somewhere there's a creature not vulnerable at all to uv-radiation. Saying heat is less dangerous is like saying horse milk tastes bad. For most people, it makes perfect sense, but to some it's nonsense.
Finally, heat might not mutate our cells, but on the other hand it can vaporize them. Have a mutated cell or no cell at all, both are pretty bad imo. :scratchchin:
i wasn't saying that infra-red (heat) is not dangerous. i'm jsut saying it's less "strong" or less "dangerous" than than a shorter wavelength like ultra violet or even worse gamma ray or the worst of all background radiation.
obviously infra-red (heat) is still dangerous. ever touched fire? burn ouch! not good! but let's go past infra-red (heat) to an even longer wavelength, microwaves like in a microwave. a microwave can't even burn u like infra-red (heat) like fire can. let's go to an even longer wavelength (the longest wavelength we know, as far as i know), radiowaves. radio waves can't hurt u at all, except to only a few body parts that are designed to detect radio waves like the ear (inner ear, coreculae ?) and your stomach (digestive tract). but this certainly won't kill u. now let's take x-rays (they have shorter wave lengths than UV but longer wavelengths than gamma rays). x-rays are very dangerous. that's why u have to wear lead vest because after a certain amount of exposure level it'll kill u. now let's take gamma rays (your nuclear bomb), that way worse than infra-red (fire) could ever be. now let's take the shortest wavelength that we know (as far as i know) background radiation ("space radiation"). see what happens if an astronaut doesn't have his space suit on and he is exposed to background radiation. instant death.
the theory why insects or bacteria or viruses can survive radiation better than humans is because their bodies and thus organs are smaller. this makes it harder for the radiation or maybe less room for the radiation to infiltrate and destroy (change) the organs, cells, dna. maybe it's akin to dilution level. it's been awhile so i can't exactly remember the theory behind it.
btw (by the way), a cochroach is no more resistant to radiation than any other insect. again, the theory is, it is because of the small size.
i don't wanna go into more detail, since it get's into more heavy physics that the general readers may not like.
i don't wanna explain about wave lengths and stuff...like how light can bend and why it can bend and why it can bend around some things better and some things not as much..etc... AM vs FM vs the new XM radio wavelengths and such... why the shorter wavelengths are more deadly...etc... take a physics class 101...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
and for what it's worth:
burnt or worse vamporized from fire/heat/infra-red: this is simply a physical change. your solid state to a liquid state if the heat-fire-infra-red melts u. or your solid state to a gas state if the fire-heat-infra-red vaporizes u. it doesn't take much energy to cause a physical change. it takes much more energy to cause a chemical change. a chemical change requires enough energy to break down the chemical bonds and/or re-form them differently. this takes more energy. because radiowaves and microwaves and infrared have such long wavelengths, they ahve very little "power" or energy. they aren't that dangerous to u compared to shorter wavelengths with much more energy. fire-heat-infra-red can cause some chemical change of course. burning is a chemical change. but in burning, the cells (usually your skin cells) are simple destroyed-damaged. also, even with fire, the fire is so weak that if u don't stay prolonged in the fire, the fire is only able to destroy your outermost cll layer (humans have 3 cell layers). that's pretty weak when fire can only damage the outermost cell layer. not very powerful. of course there's different types of fires. some types of fires can burn all 3 skin layers (i think this is "3rd degree burns", the worst type).
but simply damaging cells is one thing. but having the energy like UV and shorter wavelengths (x-rays, gamma rays, background radiation) to actually break apart and even put back together the chemical bonds at the molecular or even atomic level that's quite something else that fire can't even come close to. cancer is the weakest form of this damage. x-ray, gamma ray, background radiation don't slowly kill u with cancer that comes from UV, they instantly kill u, because your cells and dna are completely altered-mutated beyond being capable of maintaining a living breathing life form (like a human).
of course you are dead in both cases, but ignoring this, fire is much less "dramatic or deadly or powerful" than mutation caused by shorter wavelengths like UV, x-ray, gamma-rays, and background radiation.
it takes much less energy to destroy a person, it takes much more energy to destroy the smaller parts of a person like his cells or even his dna.
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i don't even wanna try to think about what a gamma ray would do to u, if it had as much energy as that is needed for fire (infra-red or "heat") to be able to vaporize u.....it would be beyond sickening...
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AeroJonesy
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
It looks like Trogdor mated with Superman's logo and then rolled around in a vat of pee and hair.
Ash Housewares
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
LorveN,
A bit OT, but venus is in Guenis World Records for being the deadliest place in the solar system! If you were to step out of a shuttle onto Venus, you would burn to death, suffocate, dissolve in the acidic atmosphere, and IIRC, get crushed or something...all simultaneously!
LorveN,
A bit OT, but venus is in Guenis World Records for being the deadliest place in the solar system! If you were to step out of a shuttle onto Venus, you would burn to death, suffocate, dissolve in the acidic atmosphere, and IIRC, get crushed or something...all simultaneously!
LorveN
D3 Off Topic Moderator
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
Right now it feels you just presented a list of radiation types, correct? All I said was that heat can be just as dangerous as uv, or x-rays, or gamma rays. It's all a matter of the intensity of the source. X-rays you describe as very dangerous, yet most people encounter them on regular basis at the doctor or dentist.
Anyway, since the discussion turned this way, I'm surprised you didn't mention a few even more deadly types of radiation, alpha particles, neutrons, protons etc.
Now, to fission one atom of uranium 235, a neutron with an energy of a fraction of an eV easily fissions the uranium. That sure is what you call a chemical change, since it breaks bonds and re-shapes them.
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Finally, if you are going by those rules when it comes to drawing an alien that we in theory could meet, then it requires that the alien also could be drawn in three dimensions. And if it can be drawn in three dimensions, there's no point in forbidding us to draw anything that has a body, because every item you have ever seen or heard of has some sort of body, assuming it isn't just vacuum.
Someone has studied a picture of the electromagnetic spectrum. :wave:
Right now it feels you just presented a list of radiation types, correct? All I said was that heat can be just as dangerous as uv, or x-rays, or gamma rays. It's all a matter of the intensity of the source. X-rays you describe as very dangerous, yet most people encounter them on regular basis at the doctor or dentist.
Anyway, since the discussion turned this way, I'm surprised you didn't mention a few even more deadly types of radiation, alpha particles, neutrons, protons etc.
Don't tell me that their organs are too small to be hit by the radiation. Already at infrared light, the wavelength is down to µm, not many insects are that small. As for the cockroach to survive gamma rays, keep in mind that the wavelength of gamma rays is ~10^-10 m, which is about the diameter of an atom. Not many organs are built up by one single atom. :scratchchin:
No problems, there have been heavy discussions on natural science topics before. It can't be worse than in-depth in any other subject.
But nobody asked you to describe that, we were talking aliens you know.i don't wanna explain about wave lengths and stuff...like how light can bend and why it can bend and why it can bend around some things better and some things not as much..etc... AM vs FM vs the new XM radio wavelengths and such... why the shorter wavelengths are more deadly...etc... take a physics class 101...
Not quite right. I don't have any numbers saying how much energy you need to vaporize, or melt, say, a chunk of uranium. But resorting to google and wikipedia told me that uranium as a specific heat capacity of about 28 J/(mol*K), about one third of that of water.
Now, to fission one atom of uranium 235, a neutron with an energy of a fraction of an eV easily fissions the uranium. That sure is what you call a chemical change, since it breaks bonds and re-shapes them.
Any fire can burn through all your layers. (I didn't know we had three, but anyway) It's just a matter of how long you stay in the fire. On the other hand, you can't mix up fire with heat, as they are not the same thing.
Wrong. They can also cause cancer, just like uv.
The energy is related to the wavelength through E=h*c/lambda, lambda being the wave length. Smaller wavelength means higher energy. Gamma rays are highly energetic compared to uv.
The gamma ray won't make you explode. It would excite an atom (or since we talked about higher energies, plenty of atoms), which in turn will de-excite in different ways, causing damage to your inside. I assume it will be something like cancer, but faster
I still think the sun would be an even more deadly place to be. Warmer, still no oxygen to breathe, higher gravity, more radiation, everything. At the same time!!
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Finally, if you are going by those rules when it comes to drawing an alien that we in theory could meet, then it requires that the alien also could be drawn in three dimensions. And if it can be drawn in three dimensions, there's no point in forbidding us to draw anything that has a body, because every item you have ever seen or heard of has some sort of body, assuming it isn't just vacuum.
Galabab
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
Actually its not that wrong to even assume an alien MUST have legs.
On earth we have billions of life forms and guess what? 99% of theml have some sort of legs to move them and 99% of them have eyes and so on.
So its pretty likely most aliens we could encounter have those basic organs aswell in one form or an other.
Actually its not that wrong to even assume an alien MUST have legs.
On earth we have billions of life forms and guess what? 99% of theml have some sort of legs to move them and 99% of them have eyes and so on.
So its pretty likely most aliens we could encounter have those basic organs aswell in one form or an other.
HegemonKhan
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
i was in honors-advanced math-science for awhile, but it's been a long time so the stuff i say may be a bit flimsy and rusty. and i love learning more and more about science, the new discoveries and such.
technically, as u get shorter and shorter wavelengths (x-ray, gamma-ray, background radiation), they actually begin to "de-construct u" they put so much energy into the particles of your atoms of your body that they (like electrons) escape the forces that hold them to around the nucleus. ionizing them, turning into the plasma phase (past the gas phase). and maybe even beyond. un-creating the atom and tearing it apart into nothing.
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about the insect's or bacteria-viruses small size and radiation, that's the only theory that scientists have been able to come up with. it has lots of flaws, but that's the best answer they got so far. at least as far as i know.
i was in honors-advanced math-science for awhile, but it's been a long time so the stuff i say may be a bit flimsy and rusty. and i love learning more and more about science, the new discoveries and such.
technically, as u get shorter and shorter wavelengths (x-ray, gamma-ray, background radiation), they actually begin to "de-construct u" they put so much energy into the particles of your atoms of your body that they (like electrons) escape the forces that hold them to around the nucleus. ionizing them, turning into the plasma phase (past the gas phase). and maybe even beyond. un-creating the atom and tearing it apart into nothing.
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about the insect's or bacteria-viruses small size and radiation, that's the only theory that scientists have been able to come up with. it has lots of flaws, but that's the best answer they got so far. at least as far as i know.
HegemonKhan
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
errr...sorry, this wasnt supose to be a new post...ment jsut to edit my previous one and add this stuff too it..obviously accidentally clicked to make a new post instead on accident...my bad....
as for the deadliest place to be, hands down, is the singularity at the center of a black hole, where the world as we know it, doesn't exist. all the forces and physics that give us our familiar world are broken down at the center of a black hole.
the next deadliest place is a quasar.
and any "active" star is far deadlier than any planet.
errr...sorry, this wasnt supose to be a new post...ment jsut to edit my previous one and add this stuff too it..obviously accidentally clicked to make a new post instead on accident...my bad....
as for the deadliest place to be, hands down, is the singularity at the center of a black hole, where the world as we know it, doesn't exist. all the forces and physics that give us our familiar world are broken down at the center of a black hole.
the next deadliest place is a quasar.
and any "active" star is far deadlier than any planet.
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
^ I was talking about the Guenis Book of World Records stating deadliest place in our solar system, not just anywhere.
I don't think the sun would count because you could never step out of a shuttle into the core of the sun; the shuttle would melt or w/e long before arriving. It would be kind of like saying the deadliest palce in our solar system is some horrible place in my imagination we could never really go. People could actually go to Venus. I guess it has to be possible to actually get there for the place to count.
I think on Venus you would also get a leathal dose of radiation from the lack of an Earth-like atmosphere.
^ I was talking about the Guenis Book of World Records stating deadliest place in our solar system, not just anywhere.
I don't think the sun would count because you could never step out of a shuttle into the core of the sun; the shuttle would melt or w/e long before arriving. It would be kind of like saying the deadliest palce in our solar system is some horrible place in my imagination we could never really go. People could actually go to Venus. I guess it has to be possible to actually get there for the place to count.
I think on Venus you would also get a leathal dose of radiation from the lack of an Earth-like atmosphere.
HegemonKhan
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
ah, my bad.
didn't realize, you were jsut talking about our solar system.
i don't exactly think we can get to venus either.....
but in any case this is a mute discussion,
the sun, venus, jupiter, etc... are all hostile.
the only three places not "hostile" is earth and mars and earth's moon.
i put hostile in "....." because technically even the earth is hostile ..... tornados, hurricanes, typhoons, tsunamis, fires, lightning, floods, volcanic eruptions, metoer impacts, etc.....
ah, my bad.
didn't realize, you were jsut talking about our solar system.
i don't exactly think we can get to venus either.....
but in any case this is a mute discussion,
the sun, venus, jupiter, etc... are all hostile.
the only three places not "hostile" is earth and mars and earth's moon.
i put hostile in "....." because technically even the earth is hostile ..... tornados, hurricanes, typhoons, tsunamis, fires, lightning, floods, volcanic eruptions, metoer impacts, etc.....
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Rashiminos
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
alecky comment:
If you believe you have one, then you have one.
If not, your head probably just exploded.
alecky comment:
If you believe you have one, then you have one.
If not, your head probably just exploded.
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
As it turns out, one of the moons of Saturn is very interesting...IIRC, it is about the same size as Earth and I heard a bit on the news a long time ago about how it has some potential. Was it called Titan? I don't remember...
Anyway, it rains gasoline there! There are hydrocarbon chains there in liquid form. I'm sure it's a pretty freaking cold place to be though.
So, heh heh, I thought it would be funny if Bush heard about this and perked his ears up at the concept of it raining gasoline somewhere. He'd be like, you mean we wouldn't have to refine it? How far away is Titan anyway?
As it turns out, one of the moons of Saturn is very interesting...IIRC, it is about the same size as Earth and I heard a bit on the news a long time ago about how it has some potential. Was it called Titan? I don't remember...
Anyway, it rains gasoline there! There are hydrocarbon chains there in liquid form. I'm sure it's a pretty freaking cold place to be though.
So, heh heh, I thought it would be funny if Bush heard about this and perked his ears up at the concept of it raining gasoline somewhere. He'd be like, you mean we wouldn't have to refine it? How far away is Titan anyway?
LorveN
D3 Off Topic Moderator
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
Saturn is just 1.5*10^9 km's away from the sun, and earth is about 1.5*10^8 km's from the sun on average. Just slightly above 10^9 km's then. But hey, don't worry, no need to bring fuel for the return trip, it's all there!
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
I saw a documentary about that too. It also said that the 'rain' there would go through any suit available to man. Good luck.
Arkardo
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: The Limit of the Human Mind
So, you're saying we wouldn't be able to detect aliens. Let me redenate why that isn't true.
An alien is defined as an organism who's origins lie outside Earth, right?
An organism is defined as a thing that has metabolism and can potentially reproduce (infertility not considered here for simplicity), so that new fertile organisms are created. (Well, I think there was more to it, but it doesn't matter right now.)
As far as I know, black holes and chairs don't do any of that.
Also, consider that had to evolve to their current state, and therefore had to survive and compete. This implies that there are most likely many traits shared between organisms from Earth, since they had to evolve from scratch and major succesful 'formula's' will probably be the same.
Also consider the finity of available types of atoms. The 'building block' of organisms from earth is carbon (C). Even if alien races have a different building block, like sulfur (S), it's most likely they're dependand at at least water (H2O), and probably oxygen (O2), too.
Taken together, this all means that an alien would most likely be at least remotely recognisable as an organism.
Back to your origininal point: I do see where you're coming from. It's like asking a man who has been blind since birth what colors are. You can't explain something if you're brain just doesn't have any information on it. But I wouldn't say that really counts as a limit. Thinking outside the box is one thing, but saying that your mind is limited if you can't think of stuff you can't know doesn't make sense, I'd say.
So, you're saying we wouldn't be able to detect aliens. Let me redenate why that isn't true.
An alien is defined as an organism who's origins lie outside Earth, right?
An organism is defined as a thing that has metabolism and can potentially reproduce (infertility not considered here for simplicity), so that new fertile organisms are created. (Well, I think there was more to it, but it doesn't matter right now.)
As far as I know, black holes and chairs don't do any of that.
Also, consider that had to evolve to their current state, and therefore had to survive and compete. This implies that there are most likely many traits shared between organisms from Earth, since they had to evolve from scratch and major succesful 'formula's' will probably be the same.
Also consider the finity of available types of atoms. The 'building block' of organisms from earth is carbon (C). Even if alien races have a different building block, like sulfur (S), it's most likely they're dependand at at least water (H2O), and probably oxygen (O2), too.
Taken together, this all means that an alien would most likely be at least remotely recognisable as an organism.
Back to your origininal point: I do see where you're coming from. It's like asking a man who has been blind since birth what colors are. You can't explain something if you're brain just doesn't have any information on it. But I wouldn't say that really counts as a limit. Thinking outside the box is one thing, but saying that your mind is limited if you can't think of stuff you can't know doesn't make sense, I'd say.