Latest Diablo 3 News
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Asmodeous, Mar 31, 2009.

  1. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    255
    The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    The Justiciar.
    A Paladin guide for V1.12 Diablo 2/LOD.


    By Asmodeous.

    Foreword.

    Paladins. No matter what combination of skills you use for a paladin, tradition dictates that it must have a title such as Templar, Vindicator, Avenger, Zealot and so on.
    So, in keeping in line with this age old tradition, I introduce to you the Justiciar. A Justiciar essentially is an individual who hunts down wrong doers and dispenses swift and immediate Justice upon them. Judge, Jury and Executioner as it where.
    Quite a fitting title for a Paladin really. The skills that the Justiciar utilizes then I hear you ask?

    Fanatism represents speed, the essense of swift. That’s easy. Justice depends on your personal point of view. Some people quite often liken Justice to Revenge or Vengeance upon the perpetrator. Yes, The Justiciar blends the skills Vengeance and Fanatism together. Far better name than a Fanatic Avenger, isn’t it?

    In the past, Avengers have traditionally used Conviction in hand with the elemental damage of Vengeance and rightly so too. Few have tried Vengeance and Fanatism together. Most people will tell them that it is the wrong combination, that they should change and use Conviction instead. For years it has been like this and I for one has been one of those very people telling others that Vengeance and Conviction are the best combination.

    Well, here in this guide. I’m going to tell you otherwise. Sit down, grab some munchies and a beverage and enjoy.

    The Avenger compared to the Justiciar.

    Time to break out some facts and figures and crunch some numbers. For this comparison, we will assume a standard Paladin set up, being;

    - 150 for strength.
    - 300% enhanced damage Cadacaus weapon.
    - Level 25 Vengeance and Conviction.
    - 10 skill points into each Vengeance synergy.

    For our Justiciar, we change Conviction for Fanatism at the same level.

    The damages for our two example characters will be;

    - 1741-2023 for the Avenger.
    - 2418-2810 for the Justiciar

    according to the character screens respectively.

    Now we need a target to test our two builds against in theory. A typical monster which I will call a MoD for this comparison which may or may not stand for a Minion of Destruction, or not. Anyway, this target has 50% resistance to Physical and cold damage, Immunity to Fire (assume it can’t be broken) and 0% resistance to Lightning damage.

    Right, versus the MoD, adjusting the damage to the various resistances, our two paladins fare thusly;

    - The Avenger will do a total of 2013-2339 to our example MoD target. (2176 average)
    - The Justiciar will do a total of 1208-1404 to our example MoD target. (1306 average)

    No comparison right? Well, there is more to the story than just damage and that is how fast you do the listed damage or attack speed. Now lets say for example, our two paladins have an attack speed of 8 frames. This requires 110% IAS for the Avenger and only 30% IAS for the Justiciar.

    Hmmm. You know, with that much IAS, our Justiciar could use a Legendry mallet instead of a Cadacaus, which has a higher base damage and only requires 90% IAS with level 25 Fanatism. That would leave us with a socket free of IAS, so let’s chuck in a 20 to maximum damage jewel into that free slot instead of an IAS jewel.
    While we are at it, let’s also add in some Deadly Strike as well to both Paladins, 30% in total (Highlords at level 80).

    Now lets see what we get;

    - Now the Avenger will do a total of 2105 – 2447 to our example MoD target. (2276 average)
    - Now the Justiciar will do a total of 1921- 2534 to our example MoD target. (2227 average)

    How about that. With a couple of changes, our Justiciar’s damage is nearly equal to our Avenger’s damage versus our example MoD target.
    So let’s continue comparing the two builds. We will assume that the Avenger continues using the cadacaus weapon and that the Justicar continues using the Legendry Mallet with a socketed 20 maximum damage jewel. Both will continue using 30% Deadly Strike.

    Example Two

    The second target monster to test both builds against has an across the board 50% resistance to everything. We will call this monster a PD, which may or may not be a Putrid Defiler, possibly.

    - The Avenger will do a total of 2742 - 3401 to our example PD target. (3071 average)
    - The Justiciar will do a total of 1650 - 2010 to our example MoD target. (1830 average)

    Example Three

    Our third and final example target monster is a more typical monster encountered in Hell difficulty, with a twist. This monster has 90% physical damage instead of the normal 50%, and immunity to one element. All other resistances are 0%. This one we will call a BL which may stand for a Blood Lord, maybe.

    - The Avenger will do a total of 1865 - 2167 to our example BL target. (2016 average)
    - The Justiciar will do a total of 1380 - 1682 to our example BL target. (1531 average)

    So, who is better, the Avenger or the Justiciar?

    Right. After three examples we compare the damage of each one and the Avenger has the highest damage in each example. So then, that would make the winner of this comparison to be;

    The Justiciar.

    Huh? The chips are on the table all bets have been placed. The cards are all on the table all except for one, still in the hand of the Justiciar. It’s an Ace. He drops it onto the table where it joins the King, Queen, Jack and Ten, all of the same suit. The Justiciar takes his winnings.
    From behind the Justiciar, steps out the Mercenary and in his hands is The Reapers Toll polearm. Chance to cast Decrepify. 50% reduction of Physical damage resistance.
    Our Justiciar has lost out to the avenger at each example because of 50% resistance to his physical damage, all 1446-1764 points of it.
    Now add 723 – 882 points of damage (802 average) to each example above. Yep. Two out of three for the Justiciar.

    Ok, I’m being a bit dramatic here obviously. It isn’t all roses for the Justiciar because suddenly his high damage capacity now relies on his Merc’s ability to stay alive and trigger Decrepify on your targets.
    In comparison, Conviction is an aura. If an monster is in range, it’s affected automatically.
    But at the end of the day, we all know the benefit of the Reaper’s Toll wielding Mercenary. It’s a time proven package used again over and over with many builds. It’s likely to be the number one Mercenary set up.
    When it comes to the Justiciar, this Mercenary set up becomes invaluable as it does to all melee physical damage builds.

    You could argue that the Avenger may have an Ace up his sleave as well. A certain Bow wielding companion with a weapon that Grants the Fanatism aura. But right back at the Avenger, the Justiciar can arm his mercenary with a Polearm bearing two Ber runes and the Conviction Aura.
    Both of these rune words are hideously expensive however. If you have them then use them obviously.
    In comparison the reapers toll polearm is an cheap and easily gained weapon and given it is the mercenary weapon you’ll likely choose anyway, It’s benefit for the Justiciar must be considered.

    Conclusion.

    So there you have it. A long ignored build has emerged from the shadows to show his true worth.
    The build is viable. It can reach end game and slaughter Baal in Hell which can be an easy task for the Justicar and like the Avenger, the aura the Justiciar bears is Party friendly too.
    Even without A reaper’s toll armed mercenary the Justiciar is still strong enough to complete the game. Reapers simply adds a good layer in icing to the cake, with cherries and sprinkles too.

    The two builds, Avenger and Justiciar are very similar in many ways.
    Yet, only one of these two builds has prospered during all these years that this game has been available. The Justiciar or Fanatic Avenger has been left on the shelf, forgotten and ignored.

    No longer perhaps?

    It is time for this build to finally gain some acceptance for the true potential that it has to offer you as a player.
    I could go on tell you how to build a Justiciar. But really, it is almost identical to the Avenger. Swap Conviction for Fanatism and equip a higher damage, slower weapon to reap the benefits of the Fanatism’s IAS, throw in some Deadly strike, Crushing blow etc, oh and don’t forget, Give your Might mercenary a Reaper’s Toll polearm, or maybe equip Atma’s Wail amulet, or both. Done. It can be that simple, there are a couple of minor details to be sorted, but you’ll work them out.
    If you need some more information, refer to my Avenger guide or post up with your questions.

    Enjoy.

    Handy Links

    To be edited in.

    Post note.

    Yes there is a patriarch thread coming. I have more time at work during lunch breaks to write guides than time at home playing Pallies! :crazyeyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2009
  2. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    8,919
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    One advantage for the traditional Avenger that you overlooked: Attack Rating. A level25 conviction aura makes AR a moot point - the boost from Vengeance alone (on top of the aura) pretty much guarantees a very high chance to hit. While Fanaticism is quite effective at boosting AR and chance to hit too, I don't think it's quite in the same class as a Conviction aura (especially when you consider that Conviction applies to your merc/party too, while Fanaticism doesn't).

    Converse to that though, the Fanaticism will boost your merc's/party's damage and speed, while the Conviction aura will not - as you mentioned.

    A second advantage for the Avenger: having your own high-level conviction aura overwrites any monster's Conviction aura that you come across. I don't think the same is true for Fanaticism auras.


    However, being a non-cookie-cutter, that makes the justicar cooler than an avenger. Afterall, as we all learned in high school, being cool is what's really important. :D
     
  3. Low Key

    Low Key Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Great read here, but right now it feels more like a collection of data, rather than an actual guide. Are you planning on expanding this in the future?
     
  4. sorcererbob

    sorcererbob Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    851
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Does the character screen take into account the extra vengeance damage from conviction? (lowering enemy resistance = more damage) So even on conviction level 1, you've got a secret +30% damage which isn't shown in your calculations?

    Am I missing something?
     
  5. smilts

    smilts Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    I like it, its a great twist and allows for some cool weapon options that before were limited.
     
  6. maxicek

    maxicek Moderator Single Player

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,045
    Likes Received:
    1,763
    Trophy Points:
    535
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Interesting.
    I have a feeling (no data) that this could be a good variation for two handed characters as the Fanaticism solves the IAS problem that I always seem to have with them.
     
  7. Schmaleop

    Schmaleop Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    853
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    121
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    I was thinking of something similar to this last week, but using Beast/Infinity merc and then possibly Concentration, although any aura could be used. I'd calculated he'd have about 5 auras running, not sure if there is a limit to the number allowed :?
     
  8. zerth

    zerth Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,118
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    An interesting side note:

    When I made an avenger at some point when I was playing on Bnet, I found myself using zeal more than Vengeance (conviction and zeal) even though I hadn't synergized it. Of course, I didn't exactly know what I was doing back then, neither had I access to good gear :)
     
  9. PandadudeSP

    PandadudeSP Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    149
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Im sure you know this since youre some kind of avenger freak (i used your guide for some pointers on mine aswell!), but the strengths of the avenger is the ability to do even damage to 4 elements, and a bonus is the massive help to party members. You said it yourself, 1446-1764 of your damage was physical, leaving around 500-800 elemental damage. In that case you might as well make a zealot and go all out physical damage IMO.

    Edit: @Liquid, a week or two ago we were 3 avengers in an MP game :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  10. Liquid_Evil

    Liquid_Evil Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2003
    Messages:
    3,047
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    258
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Firstly, Justicar?

    Secondly. Justicar??

    That name sounds like a sick combination of a pharmaceuticals "Feeling down? Just a spoonful of Justicar will set you right again" and Apple's campaign into the automotive world, "Like to drive? Just iCar."

    Aside from that, it's an interesting concept, but since Avengers are often the forgotten cousin in the D2 world, that would make the Justicar their imaginary friend. Even less of a blip on Diablo's radar. Thinking outside the box is gg though.

    Conviction won't boost my party's damage? What if I'm teamed with melee characters (gogo -defense) or better yet, elemental damage-dealing characters? The killspeed should pick up dramatically, yes?

    I look forward to the final product of this guide and/or the Pat thread. Whichever comes first.
     
  11. Low Key

    Low Key Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Justiciar

    It's a real title.
     
  12. Rhyme

    Rhyme Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Re: The Justicar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    A real title that is misspelled in the title of the thread. Can we fix that before this build catches on?

    "Judge" is an accurate slang abbreviation. Though I'm tempted by this:

    FAnatacism + AVengER + the same b.net butchery that somehow got us "baba" = FAVRE

    I hereby recommend you rename this build the Brett Favre-adin.
     
  13. VoX Dei

    VoX Dei Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    I'm one of those who would claim that a Fanatic Avenger could never outdamage a Conviction Avenger. This writeup sure puts things in a new light. Nice work, Asmodeous :thumbup:

    OT: from Low Key's link "White Wolf's roleplaying game Vampire: The Masquerade adapted the title of Justiciar, but changed the spelling to Justicar." That's where I know the term "Justicar" from.
     
  14. Vril ya

    Vril ya Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    This looks like a fun alternative. I look forward to reading the Pat thread if you build one.
     
  15. Ugla

    Ugla Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Nice read, Asmo, I enjoyed it greatly. And one more time, after reading LE's comment :D

    Though 8 FPA still painfully resembles a barbarian, Fanaticism should at least counter HF or Decrepify. The build seems more promising than a standard avenger.
     
  16. Asmodeous

    Asmodeous Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Sirpoopsalot

    So far, AR does not seem to be a problem. The combination of Fanatism, Vengeance, Raven and I assume demon limb should take care of AR. You are right, it will never have the easy job that an avenger will have of hitting everything, but it isn't going to break the builds so to speak.

    You are also right about the aura overwriting. A higher level of Fanatism will not negate another.

    Cool build? I thought so too.

    Low Key.

    Good question. I initially thought to write it a full guide adressing items, skill and stat points, merc set up etc. But that part of the guide essentially would read like an avenger and add a couple of thousand words to the post. Couldn't see much of a point to that at this stage. I was out to put the concept out there. It could be made into a full guide.

    Sorcererbob

    No it doesn't. The LCS only displays the damage generated from the weapon, strength and Vengeance. Conviction modifies the targets LCS as it where and therefore how it affects them.
    The difference between the two damage figures you quote are essentially the extra physical damage from the Fanatism aura.

    Smilts

    That's why I like it too. Stone crusher, Schaefer's, Rune master, etc!

    maxicek

    Yes, it probably would. I did think of a two handed variation but didn't go into it with this first "guide" as I said before, I'm really only getting the concept across here. I think you've got the idea however!

    Schmaloep

    I don't think there is a limit to the number or aura's you can have working at any time form either one character or within a party. I do know however that the game has a problem working with them all. It was a problem I saw happening with my Griefer who had fanatism, might merc and defiance from his Exile shield. For some reason the defiance would drop out, affecting the LCS reading when it did.

    Pandadudesp

    Yes and the Justiciar has the same advantages. Typically PI monsters have little resistances to elemental damage. Though you may have Decrepify from reapers working, apart from that you may only loose 50% of one element versus most PI's.
    Oh, BTW, the exact element damage was 618-753 each. :)

    Liquid_evil

    Yes, it is a title, I think soembody here has linked to a source of some kind, wiki probably. I actually got the title from a DnD hand book where the Justiciar is a Paladin class prestige class.
    Get used to it, it's here to stay. :wink:

    Avengers a blip on the radar. Maybe. Now maybe that blip is a little bit bigger now!

    Low key

    *checks his source...... DOH!

    I'll have to fix that.....

    Rhyme

    I just know that somebody is going to make a Justiciar and call it Judge_Dredd. I just know it!

    Vox Dei

    I wasn't aware that Justicar was also used in vamp the Masquerade. Good pick up.

    Vril Ya

    Oh i'm building it. That much is certain. Here is a sneak preview. The damage is a bit low I know but that is what you'd expect when you build Vengeance up last.

    Ulga.

    8fps isn't that much of a problem when you one-two hit kill monsters. I'm expecting 10 kay max damage out of this character. I'll see how he fares in Hell difficulty once I fully equip him and get Reapers toll on the merc. I think it will be yet another character that needs a higher setting than /players 8.
     
  17. Low Key

    Low Key Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Well, in your defense it has been used in the Justicar spelling by Blizzard themselves. According to wiki, it's a WoW PvP related title. :p


     
  18. Vril ya

    Vril ya Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    There is a Justicar armor set. I'd link it but who would care.

    Asmo, 7k+ dmg at lvl 60 is very nice. I think you have a winner.


     
  19. sorcererbob

    sorcererbob Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    851
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Justiciar is much better imo. Please, for the love of god, change the title thread.
     
  20. Wolver

    Wolver Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    57
    Re: The Justiciar Paladin Guide - Version 1.00

    Heh what a coincidence. I started Vengeance/Fanatism paladin project couple of days ago. And same as you I think his awesome :)

    But I am sure you will finish him long before me because trying to reach my 1500 Baalthon runs I must sacrifice all my playing time for Throne visiting.

    Go go Justiciar!
     

Share This Page