The June 30 handover is a fraud.

Freemason

Banned
llad12, that is just the thing that Rush was talking about yesterday. It's teh "Vietnam syndrome". Baby boomers who grew up during Vietnam saw the US lose a war. It's all they knew for almost 20 years - defeat. Now, as you've pointed out, you believe we'll lose again.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Over half an entire generation believing only in defeat and failure. And a substantial portion of the next generation believing in the same. I couldn't live like that.
 

Underseer

Diabloii.Net Member
Sergeant said:
Yeah, Iraq and the world in general would be in better shape if we'd left Saddam alone. :uhhuh:
Is this the old "The invasion was justified because Saddam is a bad man" argument?

That's a lie.

If that were a legitimate argument for invasion and violent regime change, why haven't we toppled the government of Zimbabwe? Mugabe has caused a lot more misery to his people than Saddam did. Why haven't we invaded Zimbabwe?

Because the "Saddam is a bad man" is a completely disingenuous argument.

Sudanese Arabs are also causing more atrocities to African Christians and African pagans. Furthermore, Sudan has real ties to al Qa'eda. Not imaginary trumped-up ties like conservative shrills keep hinting at about Iraq, but real ties. Why haven't we invaded Sudan?

Becausse the "Saddam is a bad man" is a disingenuous argument.
 

memememe173

Diabloii.Net Member
but then, if the invasion does improve life in Iraq...because even if there are worse people then Saddam...he's still not the person your mom wants you to bring home...
 

tydon

Diabloii.Net Member
Underseer, this isnt an arguement about justification for the war, your just trying to divert it to something that you want to argue about. Go flame and spout your useless crap elsewhere.

This is about the government in iraq, and the US role, not about the invasion.
 

dodomac

Diabloii.Net Member
Bakerking31 said:
actually the people we are killing are mostly from syria, they crossed to border to fight the US because they dont like us because of our beliefs ... i can tell you from experience that the Iraq people like the US, they run up to the humvees and try to hand us gifts or money, whatever they have because they are greatfull to us for taking out saddam, if you dont believe it, join the marines and go out there and you will see.
Don't make me slap you... this is the dumbest post I've seen in a long time.

"i can tell you from experience" : I dont need you to tell me anything, I see the news day after day with Iraqi insurgents attacking and ambushing US troops, which evidently you think is to give the soldiers gifts and money. The region is still very unstable with a lot of opposition to US occupation, and you're blaming it on the Syrians? Preposterous, and I don't believe it, and no, I won't go join the marines and see for myself.
 

Amra

Diabloii.Net Member
Nothing new here Underseer. Go fishing again.

Do you even listen to Bush?? For real? No. You have too much hate (or something) inside of you.

I don't know how it's going to work out. But I have some faith.
 

Underseer

Diabloii.Net Member
Yes. I do listen to him. Do you? Or do you just listen to the interpretations given by FAUX News, O'Reilley, Limbaugh, etc.?
 

maccool

Diabloii.Net Member
Handing over power to the Iraqi people on a certain date is a red herring used - quite well - by the administration to make it appear as though significant progress has been made in bringing democracy to Iraq.

Ask yourself the following questions:
a) Who will provide the military support to back up the new government?
b) Who is going to be on this ruling council?
c) Will anything really change on 1 July?

Seeing as how we're not getting our troops out any time soon, I'm not real keen on giving power over to a bunch of corrupt, sycophantic, greedy, rich dudes who have been out of their homeland for the last 30 years; Chalabi comes to mind. The new Iraqi government is going to be toothless, the real power will be with the Americans there. Maybe Negroponte, maybe someone else, who knows?

Again, the U.S. will have a massive troop presence in Iraq for the next 2 years at the very least and perhaps as many as 20 years. I don't see the Iraqis doing a whole lot to better their own country; this includes a governing council who reminds me of the Polish parliament of the 1700's, though with less autonomy. They look to be sitting back and waiting for coalition troops to leave. If they're going to do that, screw them. We'll stay in charge until they learn how to accept some responsibility and lend a hand in rebuilding their own country.
 

jmervyn

Diabloii.Net Member
Underseer said:
Yes. I do listen to him. Do you? Or do you just listen to the interpretations given by FAUX News, O'Reilley, Limbaugh, etc.?
I think that's the thing about you that scares many of us - the fact that you claim to listen to him, yet come away with such outlandish ideas.

I've been in Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey (admittedly over 10 years ago, and not for durations over 6 months). The Shiites loved us, though perhaps more before Bush the elder got cold feet and Blackhead allowed Saddam to start supressing them again.

In fact, much of the middle east has an adoration of the U.S. that is hard to explain - P.J.O'Rourke wrote a great article regarding it that I think was published within Holidays in Hell . He relates several incidents along the lines of people denouncing the pig-dog Satan U.S. for supporting Israel rather than Arab nations, and then talk about their brother in New Jersey and how desparately they want to live in America.

The anti-US sentiment is often a mindless hatred based on vague allegations (like millions of dead Palestinians) and suppositions that often have no grounding in reality (the Right of Return). I expect you're extremely well-versed in this sort of attitude...
 

tydon

Diabloii.Net Member
Underseers only arguement is to claim alls you listen to is fox and limbaugh.... I love it.

Never listened to rush, only have the station on fox for 24 and simpsons.......which I think are on fox.....
 

llad12

Diabloii.Net Member
Wolfowitz testified about the "limited sovereignty" that was planned for Iraq after June 30th as well as the cost of the war to the House and Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday:
Limited Iraqi Sovereignty Planned
Coalition Troops Won't Answer to Interim Government, Wolfowitz Says


By Josh White and Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, April 22, 2004; Page A25


The new Iraqi interim government scheduled to take control on July 1 will have only "limited sovereignty" over the country and no authority over U.S. and coalition military forces already there, senior State and Defense officials told Congress this week.

In testimony before the Senate and the House Armed Services committees, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz and Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman said the United States will operate under the transitional law approved by the Iraqi Governing Council and a resolution approved by the U.N. Security Council last October. Both those provisions give control of the country's security to U.S. military commanders.
Whereas in the past the turnover was described as granting total sovereignty to the appointed Iraqi government, Grossman yesterday termed it "limited sovereignty" because "it is limited by the transitional law . . . and the U.N. resolution."

Under the current plan, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan's special adviser, Lakhdar Brahimi, will appoint a temporary government that will run Iraqi government agencies for six months and prepare the way for January 2005 elections of an assembly that will select a second, temporary government and write a constitution.

Wolfowitz described the July 1 government as "purely temporary" and there to "run ministries . . . but most importantly, they'll be setting up elections." In addition he said, the government will run the police force "but in coordination with Centcom [the U.S. Central Command], because this is not a normal police situation."

"So we transfer sovereignty, but the military decisions continue to reside indefinitely in the control of the American commander. Is that correct?" Sen. John W. Warner (R-Va.) asked the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard B. Myers, on Tuesday. "That's correct," Myers replied.

"Sovereignty is not something we can, or want, to take back," Wolfowitz said yesterday, outlining efforts to develop a large, new armed force there. "The security of Iraq . . . will be part of a multinational force under U.S. command, including Iraqi forces."

Wolfowitz's comments came as he and Myers conceded that war costs in Iraq are rising, and senior House Republicans pledged to give the military more money this year, whether or not the Bush administration asks for it.

Wolfowitz, under questioning before the House committee, said that as of January, the United States was spending $4.7 billion a month, and he noted that "there may be a bump up" because of the 20,000 more troops currently there. Myers told the panel that intense combat, higher-than-expected troop levels and depleted military hardware "are going to cost us more money."

About $700 million in added troop costs have been identified, and Myers said the service chiefs have identified a $4 billion shortfall.

"We thought we could get through all of August," Myers said. "We'd have to figure out how to do September. . . . We are working those estimates right now"
And we've got to take a look and see if we have the wherewithal inside the [Defense Department] budget," he added.
Armed Services Chairman Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.) replied, "The committee, I think, General, is inclined to help you perhaps more than has been suggested by the Pentagon."

But military officials, defense contractors and lawmakers from both political parties say an emergency infusion of cash will be needed far sooner -- perhaps by midsummer. Members of Congress pleaded yesterday with the administration to be more forthcoming.

"The administration would be well served here to come forward now, be honest about this, because the continuity and the confidence in this policy is going to be required to sustain it," Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) said.

Strains on the war-fighting budget put the White House on the defensive, with administration spokesman Scott McClellan insisting yesterday that the troops have the necessary resources even as he left open the possibility that more money might be coming this year. President Bush's budget for the fiscal year that begins Oct. 1 contains no money for military operations in Iraq, and his budget director has said a request for additional funds will not come until January at the earliest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32753-2004Apr21?language=printer
 

maccool

Diabloii.Net Member
On the bright side, the U.S. has been really good at setting up puppet governments. It's just what happens later that usually doesn't work out too well.
 

llad12

Diabloii.Net Member
maccool said:
On the bright side, the U.S. has been really good at setting up puppet governments. It's just what happens later that usually doesn't work out too well.
Kinda like the Shah of Iran and the Baath party of Iraq that we helped "install" into power in the '50's and '60s. I would tend to agree with you on that aspect.
 

maccool

Diabloii.Net Member
Geez, I was thinking of the guys we supported in Banana Republics to stop the evil spread of the Red Menace in the 50's, 60's and 70's. I guess your examples are more appropriate, geographically speaking. Wheee for non-imperialism!
 

Underseer

Diabloii.Net Member
jmervyn said:
I think that's the thing about you that scares many of us - the fact that you claim to listen to him, yet come away with such outlandish ideas.
What conclusion should I arrive at after listening to him? I'd love to hear this.

I've been in Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey (admittedly over 10 years ago, and not for durations over 6 months). The Shiites loved us, though perhaps more before Bush the elder got cold feet and Blackhead allowed Saddam to start supressing them again.

In fact, much of the middle east has an adoration of the U.S. that is hard to explain - P.J.O'Rourke wrote a great article regarding it that I think was published within Holidays in Hell . He relates several incidents along the lines of people denouncing the pig-dog Satan U.S. for supporting Israel rather than Arab nations, and then talk about their brother in New Jersey and how desparately they want to live in America.
I'm well aware of what you speak. However, those sentiments started changing with the run-up to the Iraq invasion, they started changing more once the invasion started, and now they've really taken a dive since Bush has admitted he is no longer interested in being an impartial broker for peace in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and gave Sharon carte blanche to do whatever he pleases.

Sure, Kurds still like us and Assyrians still like us, but that's about it.

The anti-US sentiment is often a mindless hatred based on vague allegations (like millions of dead Palestinians) and suppositions that often have no grounding in reality (the Right of Return). I expect you're extremely well-versed in this sort of attitude...
I've actually lived in Europe and Asia, and I assure you, anti-U.S. sentiment is not what you think it is. If anything, they are more informed about what goes on in the world than we are, as we seem to be (on average) severely disinterested in world affairs. It is people who feed at the information trough offered by the likes of Limbaugh and FAUX News that indulge in mindless hatred based on vague allegations and suppositions that often have no grounding in reality. Yes, I am extremely well-versed in such attitudes because I talk to conservatives every day.
 

llad12

Diabloii.Net Member
The following is an interesting analysis of the June 30th power transfer although I'm not sure of what to make of it:

Bush's 'transfer of power' gambit
By Jack A Smith

The war in Iraq may be blowing up in the Bush administration's face, but the White House is conspiring to maintain substantial military, political and economic power in the war-torn country following a deeply suspect "transfer of sovereign power" to an interim Iraqi government on June 30.

The guerrilla resistance, combined with Washington's bungling of the occupation, have compelled President George W Bush and his neo-conservative advisors to reconfigure or shelve several of their more grandiose post-war plans. But the US government has no intention to simply relinquish its expensively obtained hegemony over a Baghdad government possessing the world's second largest proven petroleum reserves and strategically located to influence the entire Middle East.

The US must execute three complex maneuvers to accomplish its goal:

1. Inducing the United Nations to become an active partner in Iraq, providing the White House with respectable support and camouflage for its endeavors in exchange for the appearance of shared authority.

2. Taking measures to ensure that a huge American occupation force remains in the country, and that Washington will exercise great influence over the new permanent government and Iraq's economy by establishing a virtual parallel regime of its own in Baghdad.

3. Containing the resistance by any means necessary - from massive retaliation against the Sunni fighters and their new allies led by Shi'ite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, to making deals with Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the principal leader of the majority Shi'ite population. The entire plan may fail unless the resistance is destroyed or reduced to occasional attacks against Pentagon-controlled Iraqi security forces.

An important consequence of this plan, if successful in its opening stages, is that it may help reelect Bush of Baghdad to a second term in November. Even if he is defeated by the Democrats, a John Kerry administration does not appear politically indisposed to implementing a similar design.

The Bush administration was so cocooned in superpower hubris in the months leading to the preemptive invasion of Iraq a year ago that it publicly dismissed the UN as irrelevant, and refused to assign the world organization more than menial responsibilities. The transformation of the occupation into a fiasco turned the tide.

Almost everything went wrong for the US after toppling Saddam Hussein - from underestimating the opposition of Iraqi people, to the loss of credibility when it proved unable to locate Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction; from the development of an effective national liberation struggle, to the increasing number of GIs who have been killed and wounded (over 10,000 Iraqi civilian casualties don't seem to count); from the problems of occupying a nation in ruins, to popular rejection of the puppet government selected by the Pentagon; from the disinclination of allies to support a clearly unjust and illegal war, to the worldwide condemnation of the invasion and occupation.

The UN is acceding to Washington's wishes so far, despite grave reservations about Bush's actions. This is not unexpected. The global body never criticized the US for violating its charter and illegally invading in the first place, and it has subsequently approved measures recognizing Washington's administration of the occupation.

At this stage, the Bush regime needs the UN to work out the logistics of the supposed transfer of power to the Iraqis June 30. This is because the powerful Shi'ites have successfully vetoed several previous US transitional plans. They believe that their 65 percent majority entitles them to power commensurate to their numbers in the new "democratic" government.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has named Lakhdar Brahimi, a former Algerian foreign minister, as his special envoy to Iraq. He then agreed that Robert Blackwill, the White House deputy national security adviser responsible for Iraq, should work with the special envoy in developing the "Brahimi Plan" that was unveiled in vague, provisional terms last week. The Bush administration rushed to accept the "UN proposal" on April 15. The plan calls for dissolving the highly unpopular Iraq Governing Council (IGC), justly considered a US puppet, and replacing it on July 1 with a caretaker government to be selected by the UN "after consultations" with the US and Iraqi parties. Full elections for a permanent regime would be held in January.

It now seems the UN will create the structure of a new regime, among attendant tasks, assuming the various parties which rejected Washington's formulations can agree to operate within Brahimi's guidelines.

This does not mean the Bush administration has lost its power in Iraq. The US has handed an exceedingly hot potato to the UN, while retaining decisive power where it matters. As the New York Times stated in an article April 16: "Administration officials asserted that, even with the UN overseeing the selection of a caretaker government and then holding an election and helping the Iraqis write a constitution, American influence on the process would be considerable - not least because the US is to remain in charge of military and security matters and will be the country's main source of economic aid." Actually, the US is in a stronger position because it conveys the impression Bush is working with the UN to "create democracy" in Iraq.

Bush and L Paul Bremer, who heads the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), have been taking steps for many months to assure that the US will continue to wield decisive influence after the "transfer of power" to the Iraqis. Here is how it will work:

Some 110,000 US troops are scheduled to remain in Iraq for several years. They will be ensconced in 14 permanent military camps, designed as highly fortified enclaves outside big cities to minimize the number of American casualties. The GIs will fight only if US-controlled Iraqi security forces cannot handle a particular crisis, or if it becomes necessary for Washington to protect its own economic and political interests against an insurrection, or as a show of force to keep Baghdad in line.

The Bush administration expects that the new government will "invite" US troops to remain in the country under the usual "status of forces" agreement with various foreign countries hosting some 750 other US bases. If the Iraqis balk at an occupation agreement, Washington will interpret UN Security Council resolution 1551 as providing the needed authority. The resolution was passed last fall to "legalize" the US-led occupation. As now, the commanding general of the occupation force will report directly to the Pentagon, bypassing Iraqi and US civilian authorities in the country.

The White House is creating a parallel political regime in Baghdad. It has ordered construction of the largest American embassy in the world to accommodate an extraordinary 3,000 employees, far larger than any other US diplomatic mission. Many of these "diplomats" will be assigned to the various Iraqi government departments as "advisers," or co-equal authorities, effectively sharing in the operations of the Iraqi government. According to the progressive British journalist and film-maker John Pilger, writing in the New Statesman on April 17: "There will be no handover [of power]. The new regime will be stooges, with each ministry controlled by American officials and with its stooge army and stooge police force run by the Americans."

Evidence that the US plans to impose itself on future Iraqi governments is embedded in the interim constitution passed by the IGC: all laws and regulations emanating from the CPA must be recognized as valid in the future. Whether this clause is to be retained in the permanent constitution is not known. Many CPA regulations are designed to control the economy. For example, they include rules to speed the privatization of Iraq's state enterprises and property, and for the disposition of the country's petroleum resources. The CPA has also established a number of "independent" regulators to share power in various government ministries.

The US has another coercive weapon with which to manipulate the new government. It controls $18.4 billion in aid for desperately needed reconstruction tasks, without which Iraq will remain a ruin. Washington will decide which firms get the contracts for this aid.

Bush has just selected John D Negroponte, Washington's ambassador to the UN, to function as the envoy to Baghdad. Considering the size and nature of his assignment, he will serve in effect as prime minister of the parallel government, reporting to the State Department. Negroponte is an old hand at subversion, after his years as ambassador to Honduras when the country was used to support counter-revolutionary Contras in neighboring Nicaragua. He has been widely criticized by the left for covering up for human rights abuses in Honduras.

The Bush administration's intention to create a neo-colonial dependency under the guise of building democracy and restoring sovereignty may well degenerate into a fragile house of cards destined to collapse sooner than later. The two most important internal factors in making this determination will be the resistance of national liberation forces and the relationship of the Shi'ite majority to the new government and the US occupation authority.

The Pentagon's biggest immediate headache is the nationalist guerrilla resistance led by the Arab Sunni minority and joined by a small number of foreign fighters. A much more throbbing headache is lurking in the background - the possibility that the Shi'ite majority will refuse to cooperate with the US-UN authorities or, worse yet, join the rebellion. (The Kurds in the north are Sunnis, but their singular interest in obtaining as much autonomy as possible by cooperating with the US, eventually leading to an independent Kurdistan, is another matter entirely.)

The CPA was reported to think the Sunni guerrilla forces were becoming weaker after attaining an apogee last fall. The upsurge in fighting in Fallujah, Njaf and other cities throughout April proved decidedly otherwise, particularly when Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army joined the struggle - at least in part as retaliation for Bremer's decision to shut down his movement's newspaper, al-Hawza. The main fighting lasted for three weeks and over 100 GIs were killed. American forces responded with an onslaught that killed up to 1,000 Iraqis, the majority of whom, as customary, were civilians. The behavior of US troops in selecting targets was so questionable that several members of the IGC registered stern protests and a few resigned.

One of the lessons US generals learned from the events of April is that the colonial army and police force it is organizing to fight the insurrection in place of American troops cannot be counted on - a factor that has the potential of scuttling plans for a long-term occupation. One entire Iraqi brigade of 650 soldiers simply refused orders to enter Fallujah, arguing, "We did not sign up to fight Iraqis," according to the April 10 Washington Post. The same article reported that the April uprising caused up to 25 percent of Iraqi security forces to "quit, change sides or otherwise fail to perform their duties". So far, the US has trained 150,000 Iraqi police and military recruits, largely drawn from the desperately poor army of the unemployed. The majority have joined in order to feed their families and have no loyalty to the modern crusaders occupying their country.

The evident unreliability of the Iraqi forces is a serious problem for the Pentagon, which is running out of soldiers because so many of them are stationed throughout the world. At this time there are 134,000 US troops in Iraq (not counting up to 20,000 mercenaries providing many of the security services once carried out by the armed forces). Bush promises to send more troops when needed, but there are not enough GIs to fight in a large and sustained guerrilla war, particularly since the 17,500-soldier "coalition" force is being depleted by the defection of Spain (1,300 troops), Honduras (370) and possibly other countries.

Of great importance during the latest uprising was an April 10 anti-occupation rally of some 200,000 people in Baghdad with Sunni and Shi'ite together praising the armed struggle conducted simultaneously by both religious communities. The unity shown on that day is in contrast to speculation from some quarters about an eventual Sunni-Shi'ite civil war.

Most of the Shi'ite community remained quiescent during the April confrontations under instructions from Sistani, who is playing a complicated game. He despises the Americans, but recognizes events may maneuver them into granting the Shi'ite principal control of the new Iraqi government. In the extreme, a US deal with Shi'ite Iran's ruling ayatollahs cannot be ruled out: an exchange of Shi'ite predominance in Iraq, plus less hostility from Washington toward "rogue" Tehran, for Iran's guarantee to keep a Shi'ite government in Baghdad within America's bounds.

Muqtada, an Islamic radical in his early 30s, is decidedly subordinate to Sistani in rank. But he is the son of Grand Ayatollah Muhammad al-Sadr, a symbol of resistance to the Saddam regime, who was slain five years ago, allegedly by agents of the former Baghdad government. He could order his forces to join the uprising for good in hopes that this act would prompt other Shi'ites to join them. So far, the main Shi'ite Badr militia has remained passive in compliance with Sistani's wishes.

The situation in Iraq is exceptionally complicated and events are moving at considerable speed. Anything can happen - and probably will, in a matter of weeks or months. Keep your eyes on the "transfer of power" gambit.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FD23Ak02.html

The latest reports that I have heard is that the embassy staff has been downsized from 3000 to 1000 people. The administration has projected a cost of nearly 1 billlion dollars to staff and protect this embassy.

Although the article is obviously slanted, there may be some truth here.
 
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