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The End Game.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by theeliminator, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. theeliminator

    theeliminator Well-Known Member

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    The End Game.

    I got to thinking after reading some of the outlandish comments people have been making about max level, how many of them don't know what end game content really is.

    End Game content, is content you only have access to once you have reached max level.

    We know that the dev team wants end game content. (its got its own wiki page) Now we know what end game content means, but what is end game content "LIKE".

    Let me lay out a few examples of end game content from another Blizzard game. World of Warcraft has the most end game content of any game out there. Its end game is diverse, and very enjoyable, and most of it can be adapted to Diablo 3.

    So in WoW the end game content is broken down like this

    A: End game pvp - In end game pvp you gain rewards that you use to trade in to buy gear. easily enough to be added in to Diablo 3.

    B: heroic dungeons- These are dungeons that could from any part of the game. These dungeons are much harder then they were in the normal game not only cause mobs have more health and hit harder, The mobs in some cases are fundamentally different. As well as, reward players for doing any heroic dungeon by giving them tokens for beating the boss.

    Lets make up an example of this using names we all know: You enter the "Den of evil" on heroic where there once was just Fallen imps, shamans, zombies, skeletons and the occasionally gargantuan beast, now there are harder monsters added to the mix, like say Wraiths and Greater mummies, on top of that there is a boss character in the den now. Lets just say for examples sake that there was a boss in the normal version of the Den of evil, This new boss would/could have different powers and tactics, changing the way you have to beat him. After beating him you get 2 heroic tokens to save up to buy gear.

    C: End game Crafting - As you beat heroic dungeons there is a chance that epic crafting pattern will drop, These items would require powerful mats that you could only get in other end game dungeons/ heroics.

    D: Finally there is true end game dungeons - These dungeons were not assessable through out the game as you leveled up. They can only be entered by max lvl characters, not only that but they would be so hard that you would not be able to get far unless you had gotten gear from those heroic dungeons we talked about earlier.

    Now lets just say, in Diablo 3, we go through the whole game and the last boss in normal/ Nightmare is the Mistress of Pain. In Hell lvl, on the other hand, after you beat the Mistress of Pain and have reached max lvl you now build up the gear to fight the real boss, Diablo himself.

    These are just a few Ideas on how end game content could work in Diablo 3.

    I hope you can now understand why I cant wait to see what they have in store for end game content as well as why a level 60 cap isn't really that bad.
     
  2. mwhighlander

    mwhighlander IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    The fact that instantly after hearing you say "max level" (which they have temporarily[?] set at 60) you instantly went on a "What WoW did" rant.


    Now I'm thinking something is a bit off that many people are still soo focused on relevance to WoW. Also, max level in D2 did not dictate whether you had access to "end game" content or not, which I liked. And who honestly took the time to hit level 99?
     
  3. Telzen

    Telzen IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Lets not do that. People should just pvp for fun, turning it into a farm for gear is a bad decision, especially if the gear is better than can be gotten in drops and thus forces people to pvp.

    If they want D3 to be about the item game then we don't need to be getting special gear through ways like this. And to get people to do them the gear awarded would have to be better than what can drop. Why not just have these areas drop high level items more often than regular areas?


    New dungeons should be fine, but they shouldn't require certain gear to beat them. One of the worst things in WoW is that gear is the most important aspect of characters.

    No thanks.

    I'm still hoping they do an infinite dungeon. People can compete on a later on how far they can make it down.



     
  4. Ninyu

    Ninyu IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    In Diablo, gear is the most important aspect of the characters. The item hunt IS the game!


     
  5. Sylvanite

    Sylvanite IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Infinite dungeons are just ugh-ly design. It's like a carrot on a stick except there's no carrot. How would this even work in multiplayer? Would you just join someone far down and get a waypoint to their level and go from there? Would it start over in every new game you made? Are there going to be infinite waypoints? Dear god I hope not.

    Let's hope they make actual end game content with meaning and purpose. Should be easy enough to add on extremely hard random quests in endgame areas that have better chances of dropping good gear. I don't like the idea of running levels for tokens that automatically get you the best gear in order to then even be able to survive in a harder place that gets you the next level of best gear, but I do like the idea of ridiculously hard levels that have good drops. At some point though, we will get to a point where your character has the best gear for him, is max level, and can solo through everything pretty easily....then you get to make a new character!
     
  6. ThomasJ

    ThomasJ IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Why do we even need end game content ? Characters do not last forever nor should they. We'll have 5 classes to max out with multiple builds to do. That is penty of content right there. Stop making this into a mmo!
     
  7. Nekora

    Nekora IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    I still hate the idea of an infinite dungeon. Ugh.

    Now, random endgame sidequests that can spawn ultra-difficult dungeons to go through...THIS is a much more elegant design, and doesn't have the design flaws an infinite dungeon might have.
     
  8. theeliminator

    theeliminator Well-Known Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    I plainly stated that WoW has some of the best end game content and it is a Blizzard game so there can be parallels, I could have easily picked another game with great end game content but.... yeah you tell me of one.

    As before there are similarity between diablo and WoW, (beyond the graphics) both are RPG's both have a skill system, both have/will have an economy. Both have/will have end game content. I just took what WoW has for end game content and applied it to Diablo, this doesn't mean it will be exactly the same but you can see some of the options of what could be.

    There are a lot of people that took the time to hit level 99 or at least 85



    There is a reason why Modern Warfare 2 is very popular, beyond the fact but not exclusive to it being fun. REWARDS are a major factor in why people love to play it. I play this game for X amount of time and not only am I having fun but I am being rewarded for it. That makes me want to play more, and more.

    Also just wantedto add that, the gear you could get from PvP may be good for only PvP. And although the gear from PvE could be relatively good for PvP it won't be the best for PvP, If designed right.


     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  9. Ninyu

    Ninyu IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Your fun comes from building the character. Other peoples' idea of fun is exploring the world and finishing every quest. Why do we all have to play according to your playstyle. What's wrong with having more content unlocked after you beat Nightmare?


     
  10. ThomasJ

    ThomasJ IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Want more content ? Wait for an expansion ? All i am saying is that end game is highly overrated. There is a beginning and an end to everything except space. The last time I checked we are still on planet earth until further notice. :)


     
  11. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    There should be an end game. Playing a character through the game is one thing, but being able to use the toy you complete later on for a specific challenge is another great feeling entirely.

    However, I am very much against these ideas. End game should be this - end game. It should be about taking the character you've made and leveled and accomplishing something with it beyond the fact of making the character. It should not become its own source of specific items (at least, that should not be the point). Tokens are a pacing mechanism before everyone gets the guaranteed best gear for a specific time input. That is not the core of Diablo that is the (random) loot hunt.

    The character construction should occur outside of these specialized end-game areas - it should be part of the core game. Otherwise we will get stuck in the same treadmill of "acquire equipment to do dungeon A - do dungeon A to acquire equipment to do dungeon B - repeat ad infinitum."

    Item rewards are not inherently bad for end-game content, but it should not be a source of end-game equipment. That defeats the purpose of it being the ending for that character.
     
  12. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Nothing's wrong at all with it, but what you're describing has nothing to do with the Diablo series. There really isn't much to explore, and quests have never been more than a 10 minute time sink to grab the extra skill points / stat points / health potion (aside from the first play through). The most important aspects to Diablo's replayability are item hunting/wealth gathering and diverse character builds.

    If your idea of a cool end game is exploring and questing, no one in their right mind would recommend D1 or D2 to you. We diablo enthusiasts are hoping that stays true for D3 as well. No one wants this to turn into an MMO.



     
  13. Nekora

    Nekora IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Why isn't endgame content good? I really don't see why it wouldn't be. I think having endgame content is a huge improvement over ONLY being able to do runs of the last boss with your decked out character, if you are looking for something worthwhile to do.


     
  14. Plineyfish

    Plineyfish IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    There needs to be some end game content. Whats the point of building a really powerful character if all there is to do is go kill diablo 1,000 times in a row. That was the problem with D2 is there was Zero pvm content for a really powerful char. I don't want it to be like wow where half the game is after max level but there needs to be something interesting to do once you max out.


     
  15. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    Yeah, I think the problem here is that support for end-game comes from the vision of how World of Warcraft implemented it. The implementation, actually I can't believe I am agreeing with the "but its wow like" reasoning, is inherently not fit for Diablo.

    If one would to posit end-game as something specific and different, something to do for the maxed out character other than farm gear, it would have a lot more positive reception. There is still to be a clear end to the character, a maximum it reaches. But it's not drawn out like it is in WoW. No farming progressively better gear to do new zones to farm better gear and so on. Instead, view it as an alternative to farming for gear, an alternative to PvP.

    An infinite dungeon, a "Horde" like mode from Gears of War, a series of arenas with insanely difficult challenges, etc. Just something fun to do with the tricked out end-game character. But, to reiterate, not a second beginning for a new game with further progression of new rewards to make your character stronger. That works for World of Warcraft because the game is structured to be a slow progression with emphasis on raiding. It wouldn't for Diablo because it would be divorced from the design of the rest of the game.
     
  16. Nekora

    Nekora IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    I like the idea of endgame as I conceived it. Of randomly generated sidequests that spawn very difficult dungeons. They may not necessarily give significantly more/better loot than Diablo or whatever, but they could scale up to provide a challenge to everyone, even those in totally decked out gear, who are skilled with their character.

    I don't know if this is too WoW'ish for you, but I think it works just fine.


     
  17. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    That's not bad. It could even provide normal drop tables as the rest of the game. But the core attraction should be the challenge, the proving of your build/equipment/tactics, not to be the superior farming area. Uber Tristram of D2 laid down a good conceptual example - a dungeon for challenge of fighting 3 bosses with infinite minions. Can't farm gear there. A reward incentive in form of a Torch, but I am a little iffy about that.
     
  18. Wolfpaq777

    Wolfpaq777 Well-Known Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    konfeta summed up my views nicely.

    An end game of grabbing specific gear to farming specific game areas for specific items (0 magic find for cow socket/ethereal farming, max gold from monsters for council farming, max MF for act boss farming, etc) that you find in Diablo 2 works perfectly for me. I have no problem with the randomly spawning difficult dungeon idea you propose as long as it's not the only way to get the best gear. If it's just another place to farm when you and your buddies have finished the act bosses, and don't feel like creating a new game yet, I'd be all for it. I'm not sure why it has to be quest based, that sounds unnecessarily complicated, and directly opposed to the Diablo "do every quest once then never quest again" policy. Just make it a random crypt entrance in act 4 somewhere would be fine, why does everything we do require motivation from an npc?

    I can't wait to have my first character geared enough to laugh at this comment.



     
  19. theeliminator

    theeliminator Well-Known Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    I like the ideas you guys brought up. I think there is a lot of room to make end game content. "Horde" mode (something talked about on here like last year) could be cool.

    There should never really be an ending for a character. There will/should always be other skill builds to try, different rune combos to fool around with.
     
  20. Nekora

    Nekora IncGamers Member

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    Re: The End Game.

    I won't disagree with your views about having it be the only way to get the best gear. Personally, I think there should be a LOT of activities that are all different that should get you a chance at the best gear. Mix things up a bit.

    Now, as for the Diablo 'do every quest once then never quest again policy', I don't think that's really...integral to Diablo. It's something that could change. And having it only be in Act 4 is what I want to avoid with this whole system. T he reason I want it to be motivated by an NPC and random dungeons could spawn is to make it have more variety. They could be all over the game world, and enemies get scaled up in number, difficulty, and strength to make it a commensurate challange with the difficulty level of an endgame quest.



    And I will laugh giddily when Blizzard has content that is meant for twinked out max level characters that you will never be able to solo in 4-player mode no matter how well-geared you are.

    I personally would LOVE a very challenging endgame content that MUST be done by an appropriate number of maxed out, completely twinked characters in the hands of players who know what they're doing.

    I really don't like the idea that the VERY toughest content in the game becomes trivial to someone in the right gear. We should have a challenge available to everyone, no matter how good they are, and how great their gear is.


     

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