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The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO if

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by callsignapollo, Jan 13, 2009.

  1. callsignapollo

    callsignapollo Banned

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    The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    The Dynamic Character Growth System

    ...by: CallsignAPOLLO


    In these Diablo 3 speculation threads I've seen two main suggestions for how skills should work in Diablo 3:


    1. Once assigned skills cannot be moved or modified.
      .
    2. Once assigned any and all skills can be removed and/or reassigned.



    I propose a third system: Skills are assigned as normal throughout gameplay and can be reassigned at a later time. However, some skills cannot be reassigned after certain conditions have been met.




    The Rules​



    1. Skills can be made open for reassignment at a cost of gold.
      .
    2. The amount of gold scales to reflect your character's level.
      .
    3. After 5 points have been spent in a skill you may only remove 1-4 points.
      .
    4. After 5, every 5 additional points into a single skill becomes permanent.
      .
    5. If you only put 1 point into a single skill it can moved without factoring into rule 6.
      .
    6. Out of every 3 points assigned to a skill tree only 2 may be reassigned to a different skill tree.
      .
    7. Some high level skills cannot be reassigned.
      .
    8. There is special quest which can be completed three times which allows the reassignment of 5 skill points from any skill to any skill tree. (Excluding the skills covered by rule 7).


    *Explanation of Rule 3: once 5 points have been assigned to the same skill, you can only remove up to four of those points. This prevents skill abandonment after a player has shown interest in that skill. This also trains the player to be cautious when assigning more than one point to a skill as does Rule 6.

    *Explanation of Rule 4: if you have 5 points in a skill and put 3 more in you can reassign those 3 skills although 1 must be reassigned to the same skill tree. However, if you put 5 more points into a skill that already has 5 points in it, you may not reassign any points in that skill. In other words, after 5 points skills are 'permed' in 5 point increments.




    Let me know what you think!

    Comment, but don't hate!​




    -CallsignAPOLLO



    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
  2. V12V12

    V12V12 IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    I think it's a great start, I have some critiques I'll eventually get around to adding, but again great thread start!

    Oh I LIKE #7! Like a randomized and VERY VERY difficult challenge level or boss you have to beat, or puzzle you have to solve, that's RANDOM, so that Joe-Bob's guides don't turn it into another wash-over "challenge." Maybe a difficult mathematical equation the program spits out that most would need to seek assistance to solve, say Calc-III or Differential Equation matrix?!
     
  3. callsignapollo

    callsignapollo Banned

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    hahha, i just thought up a joke

    you could also call this system the "Nazi Skill Reassignment Program" because there are so many obstacles and it is so stingy with its flexibility

    lol, jk
     
  4. Bad Ash

    Bad Ash IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    well there is defintely going to be something regarding re-assigns (sadly) so this is an interesting way to restrict and yet grant people who mess up with a couple of points
     
  5. callsignapollo

    callsignapollo Banned

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    i added a rule and altered 2 other rules, now i'm satisfied


    rule 5 basically allows you to 'test' different skills without permanent drawbacks, but once you start putting more points in there things will become increasingly permanent
     
  6. Grug

    Grug IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    I noticed one flaw in your plan: the 5 skill point limit. Players will be loathe to put a 5th point into the skill because it will be permanent.
     
  7. callsignapollo

    callsignapollo Banned

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    that's not a flaw, that's how the system works

    if players weren't cautious about putting points in then it would be a full redistributable system but it's not

    -Callsign
     
  8. V12V12

    V12V12 IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    I'm liking this thread more and more... There's no need to fear skill placement, since if you've already added 4 points anyhow, a 5th won't break the camel's back. You've already got 80% into [email protected]/5 anyway... I think the 5th point that makes it perm shouldn't be just another 20%, it should be say a significant boost since you're essentially locking out the skill: so say 20% goes to 35-40% once locked!?
     
  9. NioTumsSpik

    NioTumsSpik IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    all people that is hating on respecc, remember none is forcing you to use it, if you don't like it you dont HAVE to use it!
     
  10. V12V12

    V12V12 IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    I just thought about something.... I think there should be some kind of algorithm that determines just how much of a skill percentage you get with each point. Something that depends on where you've traveled, monsters fought, allies made, enemies made or something besides; everyone gets the same old [email protected] certain level blah blah... that way No cookie-cutter builds could be the same. Like in life; even the "elite" don't have the exact same abilities at their level. They are similar, but still unique in not only raw ability, but also how they approach and use their unique skills. There's been 100's of NBA players, that look similar on paper, but on the court their approach to reaching similar stats was VERY different.
     
  11. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    Yes, you do have to use it. If you don't, you will fall behind the thousands of players who are using it. You would be rerolling which takes more time than clicking a button to fix the flawed chr.

    To borrow/paraphrase someone else's quote from the respec's thread:

    "No one is forcing you to wear a helmet either. But it would be stupid to not use one."

    Keep in mind the kind of people who are opposed to respecs (some of them anyway) are so opposed because they want to be competitive against other players who can't muster the patience to reroll. Simply choosing not to use respecs is not very competitive is it? Competitive people are not going to opt out of using a mechanic that automatically helps them save time.


     
  12. Doctor Salvador

    Doctor Salvador IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    Although I would be able to stand a very restricted reassignment capability, I am still against it, and Blizzard should be too, but not just 'cause they hate it.

    If D3 has a restricted reassignment capability, then both sides of the argument will be angry: The Pro-Respec side will be mad that they don't have more respec ability, and if they got more, someone would always be asking for more. The Anti-Respec side would be mad that there are any respecs at all.

    However, if they put in NO reassignment capability, then at least you have one side happy (the Anti-Respec).

    Of course this is biased, since I am, for the most part, Anti-Respec.
     
  13. Sleepyfoo

    Sleepyfoo IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    It's a very interesting start to a system that I could see working, but honestly, I can't see blizzard implementing something like this.

    From the very beginning of D3 they've stated that their philosophy is to build variation through simple choices. If you watch the panel on skills that they did they were consistently simplifying their skill system. I can't really see them doing anything that wouldn't be instantly understood.

    Anything more complicated than "active skills cannot be reassigned, passives can" or some other two-part (at most) instructions would probably seem to confusing to them.

    It's not that its a bad system at all, I just can't see them doing something like this.
     
  14. Telzen

    Telzen IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    You didn't look very hard then lol.
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=708007&page=26
    Knight_Wolf and many others were talking about the many ways we could have limited respecs in the game. I'd say your system is overly complicated. We need to have a simpler method to work with. How about everytime you beat a difficutly you gain 10 free point respects, or maybe less, I'm sure they could find the right number. You could also repec one point for a gold cost, but it ramps up to high costs eventually. Read Knight_Wolf's posts in that thread for some other(probably better) suggestions.



     
  15. Kalara

    Kalara IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    Agreed, the OP is a bit needlessly complicated. There are simpler ways to achieve limited respecs.
     
  16. V12V12

    V12V12 IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    What's all this talk about complication? Did some of you NOT play DII at all? Building an upper level character to solo Hell WITHOUT Joe-Blow's Elite Build Guide is NOT easy. Claim all you want, but I'm betting 1/2 of us wouldn't be able to do it on our own without any help from some kind of guidance. Calculating defensive and hit breaks, effects of certain auras and armors; while not advanced math, it's certain not "simple" when you're doing it completely on your own. Esp when it comes to looking way down the road to HELL solo'ing and MF'ing (lets not even talk about PvP). I've seen MANY a player (inlcuding myself) make a build that's kicking arse in nightmare, only to find those skills are barely cutting it in moderate/higher levels of Hell... It's not THAT complex of an idea...

    And so what if it was (in our opinions), maybe this game NEEDS some complexity here and there. It's called a "challenge." I fear nothing more with this new version than another cookie-cutter-guide-o-rama just like in DII. Simplicity for the sake of not being complex is not always optimal. Like I've said in previous posts, there's the camp of extremist on either side of the table; the key is finding a compromise. Not having it = completely uncompromising. Which isn't logical, nor "fair," per se.

    Lastly...Give the guy a break, it's a beta-idea, a thread for BRAINSTORMING, not an all-out absolute statement. We're all here trying to work it out and find the best of both worlds. If you don't agree or have a strong enough opinion about it "not" working, then I would love to see your proposals, and not just "keep it the way it's always been," that's a cop-out and frankly boring/lame/unimaginitive.
    No offense intended.

    ----
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2009
  17. IEqualsGood

    IEqualsGood IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    1. Blizzard will never go for this, far too complicated for their game. I am not against complexity myself, I think min-maxing is great, but this system wouldn't even be considered.

    2. "Yes, you do have to use it. If you don't, you will fall behind the thousands of players who are using it."

    Since you mention competition with other players, already respecs are ONLY relevant to multiplayer. In single player you will have the choice to use it or not, and make the game more challenging for yourself by not using it, without falling behind any other players. In diablo, the competition is rooted in the pvp system. Co-op is impoirtant to the game, that's cool if it's what you're into, but it is not competitive. Like it or not, there will be an end to the game, and while it's hopefully more difficult to achieve than D2, it will be simple enough for all of the player base to accomplish.

    3. Debate all you want, but respecs will be in the game. For all of the people against the idea, have you ever tried it before? They are many, many pros to respecs. The whole theory that the game will end up with a bunch of cookie-cutter builds with respecs is also a fallacy. If players can respec, the metagame is advancing and changing very quickly.

    Take for example, D2 the past few years. While D2 is not the best example, because almost any build appears to be amazing with the right gear on (Diablo 3 will hopefully be less gear dependant), there are clearly builds that scale well with low gear and can be considered, generally, 'better'. The hammerdin has been a prominant build for years. It is, however, not perfect... there are counters. So, some people will bang their heads against the wall trying to kill a hammerdin, but it is clear that their build doesn't work. Now the beauty of respecs come in. The mroe popular a build becomes, the less success it will have. People will customize their characters to counter the current metagame, and thus the balance will shift. So that player banging their head against the wall will find a way to change their character to be more effective against hammerdins, rather than rolling one themselves. It will make for a better pvp experience, it has consistently prevailed for pvp balance in other games, and it will be the same for D3.

    In the event that there is actually a challenging portion to pve/pvm in the game, as in challenging for competitive players, not just challenging for your average player, then respecs will still reign, because it will require synergy will all classes in the group to perform well, and to customize their characters to perform best in whatever this theoretical 'challenging' part of the pvm side could possibly be.

    So, yeah... experience has shown that the argument on cookie-cutter builds being more evident in games with respecs, is invalid. So why does this happen? Maybe because players are concerned that their character will become messed up when they experiment, and wish to be the most powerful (going back your idea that all players have a competitive nature) so they will choose the build that has shown a lot of success, because they know they can be successful with the same build. Now, I know some of you would prefer to take risks and spend all of the time rerolling and experimenting to find a strong build yourself, but not everyone has the time/passion to do that, and not everyone wants to keep playing through the game to tweak their character, especially is there is any form of character progression beyond killing the final boss and reaching the level cap.

    On a final note, though I would be happy with just going to town and subtracting my skills at no cost, there are some good suggestions. First, only in town... that is obvious enough, we don't want people changing their character build while they're fighting... it wouldn't make any sense. Second, a gold fee... while not a ridiculous one, would be ok. And lastly, accumulated some sort of points as you kill monsters would work too, but again... not taking it to extreme limits.



    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    TLDR: Respecs will be here to stay, and they will improve the game. They add MORE customization, unique character builds, and LESS flocking to the cookie-cutter builds.
     
  18. NioTumsSpik

    NioTumsSpik IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    and respeccs also make an excellent gold sink
     
  19. callsignapollo

    callsignapollo Banned

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    yes this is just a suggestion, the rules could be simplified but i wanted to put forth several different ways of controlling skill redistribution

    i don't think a 1-rule system that is between full redistribution capabilities and zero redistribution capabilities would work very well

    with several rules the average player would feel like their skills were becoming more and more permanent and less and less could be reassigned (they wouldn't have to know the underpinnings of it)

    and the super-hardcore players like us lol, could familiarize ourselves with all the rules specifically to get the most out of the system


    that's the kindof thing that gave d2 lasting value
     
  20. Bad Ash

    Bad Ash IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Dynamic Character Growth System: By CallsignAPOLLO

    I dont think people make threads here for blizzard to go for it. It is just fun to speculate and have fun
     

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