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The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress der=0

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by JihadJesus, Nov 10, 2010.

  1. JihadJesus

    JihadJesus Diabloii.Net Member

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    The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    In TopHatCat's mat thread for his zealchantress, Summertime, I mentioned that I loved my zealchantress and if I ever managed to scrape up dual dreams I'd make a project of running one to 99. I've been kicking around the idea of making a lvl 99 run my main D2 project but haven't been able to settle on a build and the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of making a real push with an enchantress.

    The question is: can it be done? The key to serious 99 efforts isn't running Baal and the minions at high /players, it's running Baal and the minions at high /players without dying. So I appeal to you for some theorycrafting help: supposing I'm willing to sink resources into this project above all others, can I make a zealchantress capable of running to lvl 99? Here's where my planning is as far as a build & gear to start the discussion:

    Skills:
    FM/Warmth/Enchant/Lightning Mastery - all clearly maxed
    Tele - maxed; this comes from my experience with my earlier enchantress, tele keeps you alive. Man burn + 20 mana tele = much deadening
    Static - everything I can spare
    Telekenisis - 1

    Gear:
    'Passion' - either phase or ebugged 1.07 cryptic sword if I try to get leechable damage
    Stormshield - either p diamond/Um or 15 IAS/resis depending on weapon choice
    Call to Arms caddy/'Spirit' on switch
    G's face (Um or 15 IAS/res)
    armor will be Fort if I go for leechable damage, not sure otherwise
    Blood Gloves (10 CB/20 IAS most important, pair I have has dual leech and some light res)
    Arachnid Mesh
    Goblin Toes (probably, CB is a high priority)
    Raven/dual leech or BK if I don't need resists/Mara's or Highlords

    Pre-buff for enchant to Hexfire (hopefully to a Volvanic orb + enchant)/BKs/Volcanic Ammy/Volcanic circlet

    Charms are interesting. After looking at it, I'd need 16 perfect Shocking SC of Storms to completely replace dual dreams, but I'd get to customize my stats in other ways from my helm/shield slots (and I don't have to dig up a pair of Jah runes...). Realistically, ~50 max light damage charms x 10-15 will get me 2k-3k light damage, which should be sufficient as a Dream substitute while I work on improving them one at a time rolling Baal SCs or get lucky with Jah runes. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there even ARE that many lightning damage SCs for trade in the SPF, so it may be a moot point.

    After that, I need to make a decision. I'm going to focus on getting CB as high as possible - it's the absolute best offensive option against Baal once static has done its work and will have a big impact across the board in killing speed. The problem is, I'd really really really like to have some leechable damage. With a nice ebugged 'Passion' 1.07 cryptic, I could get a pretty decent avg damage to leech from if I add Fort into the mix - but it really kills the breakpoints for sorc zeal (which I'll put down below). The other option might be to stick with the phase but try to squeeze drac's ino the setup. I'm also nervous about the complete lack of FHR with a Fort armor. I've even considered 'Stone' basically only for that reason, and 'Duress' would also help.

    I should be able to crack 2k life with my CtA after I level past 90, especially as my charms improve, but maybe not without sacrificng my block%. Not sure what to do there. Merc would obviously ideally be carrying Infinity (and if I can get my lightning damage into an acceptable range with charms, this is where any rune wealth I can build would go next).

    I tried a few trial runs with my old sorc, but it was kind of hard to get a feel as she's definitely not built for it. What do you guys think? Is it even possible to do this, or am I just dreaming?

    Various breakpoint info shamelessly taken from the Sorc forums:

    Code:
    Hit Recover Rates - Sorc and conveniently Act 2 merc's
    FHR % 	FPH
    0	15
    5	14
    9	13
    14	12
    20	11
    30	10
    42	9
    60	8	
    
    Code:
    Faster Block Rates		
    FHR % 	FPB	
    0	9	
    7	8	
    15	7	
    27	6	
    48	5	
    86	4	
    
    Sorc Zeal IAS Breakpoints
    Originally Posted by Lucky_Seven and Thrugg
    Code:
    For a -10 speed 1 handed swinging weapon 
    11/8 70 IAS
    9/8 109 IAS
    10/7 129 IAS
    
    For a phase blade, -30 WSM
    11/8 30 IAS
    9/8 54 IAS
    10/7 65 IAS
     
  2. leetserv

    leetserv Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    I don't have a lot of input here, but i think you should stick all your eggs in one basket. Trying to go for lots of physical damage AS WELL AS fire + lightning, you might end up crippling yourself.

    I'd go for draculs and not fort. Not sure what else. There's always highlords and andy's for ias, although you'd lose some CB that way.
     
  3. Kitriara

    Kitriara Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    DO THIS. My zealchantress is my favorite character of all time, I'd say. It's the one character that I never get bored of playing and one that makes it worth continuing to search for the best possible gear... reroll that next amazing charm...

    Have you considered trying to make up extra damage by not maxing Teleport and pumping lightning and cold mastery then using tons of charms to up your damage?
     
  4. scrcrw

    scrcrw Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Lightning damage charms won't give you anywhere near as much damage as dual 'Dream'. The great thing about the Dreams is that the Lightning Mastery bonus is applied twice (i.e. quadratically). That doesn't work for charms.
    Assuming an LM bonus of 400%, the damage from a charm is multiplied by 5. The damage from the level 30 Holy Shock aura is multiplied by 25. That's how you get 50k max damage on a melee sorc.
    (I just rechecked that on my Baalsorc. With 482% bonus from LM, a 1-5 light damage charm adds the expected 6-30 damage.)

    I'd also look into Bearsorcs. A 4fpa attack is just faster than 7fpa Zeal...
     
  5. JihadJesus

    JihadJesus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    This is what I plan to do, although I'm not too concerned with cold damage. The more I think about it the more I'm sure that if I was choosing between ideal setups, 15-20*perfect lightning SC would win out over dual 'Dream' for me; the double application of mastery is awesome, but I don't think the extra damage is that necessary - 15k damage a swing with 60% CB should still do it, and either way it'll be necessary until I come up with two Jahs and that wouldn't be until after making an Infinity anyway since I think that's a greater benefit.

    The physical damage is not a kill speed concern; CB will be more than enough to work against the minions and is MASSIVELY more effective against Baal himself than anything but Static. My desire for physical damage is trying to find a source of leech and dramatically improve survivability and with a bit more thought Dracs will be useless there with the playstyle an enchantress demands - the chances it'll proc when I need it AND I won't tele clear across the pack right afterwards are pretty low and if I can't count on it I don't think it's worth having.



     
  6. Kitriara

    Kitriara Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Absolutely right, I'd say. I'm not sure how rich you are, but I am nowhere near affording an Infinity right now. Like you said, a godlike setup using dual Dreams and hitting for 50K is not really necessary - you can still have great killing speed without that. As you mentioned, Crushing Blow is definitely going to be your major asset. Are you planning to use Goblin Toe and make up the speed with FRW from charms and other equipment?

    You're going with lightning over cold charms? I havent run the numbers but I suppose that lightning charms * lightning mastery will do greater damage than cold charms * cold mastery. I guess I'd have to run the numbers, figuring what the average monster cold resistance is in hell.

    Dream is admittedly awesome, but then you'd miss out on things like the Confuse proc from Delirium (and the easy +skills it would give your zeal!) and the PDR and MDR from Gerke's, etc. Depends on how you plan to build it, I guess.

    Do you have any "end game" gear in mind? I dont mean dual dream + infinity end game. I mean, stuff you have now that will be "good enough" to kill Hell Baal and get rolling. I'd love to hear your gear.



     
  7. zerth

    zerth Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Since I made this char recently, I'd like to point out that Bear form is indeed the way to go. A PB with 95 ias will get you to 5 fpa. My equipment of choice is something like this

    Dual dreams
    CoH
    Mara's
    Arach
    BK
    Ravenfrost
    Gemmed PB (4xshael, one jewel of fervor, shimmering jewel)
    Waterwalk
    Bloodfist
    7 lightning skillers
    Beast/Spirit on switch

    Infinity/Fortitude/Andy's merc.

    Obviously the must haves are Dual Dreams and Infinity.

    Plus: Silly damage, no mana needed, nice survivability even though there are no means of life replenishing. Just drink some potions.
    Minus: Damage is applied with melee hits, whenever the moron is left behind killing rate goes way down.

    This is a powerful and somewhat fun char. No way is it a top-notch Baal runner (I'd say 3:15+ per run). A light sorc will get easily to 2:30 and the Javazon will top that. That's right, when it comes to Baaling the Javazon is like a drow (she rules supreme) :wink:.



     
  8. sorcererbob

    sorcererbob Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    @Zerth you're talking at a cost scale that only a handful of SP players can afford. Do you have more cost effective solutions?

    @Kitriara PDR/MDR on Gerke's is only really relevant if you're planning on going down the ES path, which this character appears not to.

    Relating to Beast, I must say part of the appeal for me as a melee sorceress is wading into battle AS a sorceress. "Haha, you just got beaten to death by a little girl!"
     
  9. JihadJesus

    JihadJesus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Well I didn't ask if it was an optimal Ball 99 candidate - if it was faster than a good light sorc or 'zon, there'd be more of them up on the board than those builds. I just asked if it was doable. The fastest melee times I remember from Liquid's old thread was just under the 3:00 if I recall, a teslading with enigma and infinity. I also already have a bear that packs 3k life and nearly 20k damage at 5 frames, which I tried a few runs with and is 'decent' but not super inspiring to me (and I really tried to convince myself to do it, it's literally my character after all).

    I'm thinking I may get started on this even lacking godly gear. I would obviously LIKE to have dual dream, but the real question is if I can get the survivability high enough to realistically do the runs without deaths. I'd really like to shoot for at least 1000-1500 leachable avg damage, decent FHR/block speed and 5-6k defense (not enough to save me, but enough to keep every.last.hit from the mob from puting me in a block cycle).

    At this point I could get a 'budget' setup going with basically just the lightning SC missing, possibly the 1.07 cryptic too. I think I can swing that, I just need to make my mind up about the build and weapon/armor choice.
     
  10. scrcrw

    scrcrw Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Sorry, I misrembered the attack speed of a Bearsorc. 5fpa is still pretty fast. :whistling:

    I think the main problem you'll face are Lister and the Minions on /p8. 1k physical + 1k lightning damage on average + 60% CB are nice, but killing the whole pack might take a while (which is not going to make survival easier). I'm very interested to see how that'll work out.

    Looking into the IAS breakpoints for Zeal when decrepified might also be a good idea. You can't always avoid being cursed by Baal.
     
  11. zoo

    zoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    I'm wondering if it is possible to get her to leech reliably at all. What if you would go with dual dreams and a Crescent Moon PB. This way you will not be stuck in zeal mode either. You will also not need nearly as much IAS on gear to max out your attack speed. How many hits would be needed to slay some creature like Lister with a decent dual dream setup?
    I have to add I have never played one of these chars but I have always wanted to try one out. Meaning I have no real experience.

    Edit: I had a look at the monsters in the waves and their resists and wave 1, 4 and 5 will always be unbreakable fire immunes (slvl 12 conviction). Ventar the Unholy will be LI+FI if he's LE (unbreakable). Wave 2 and 3 will never be lightning immune. If this is indeed correct, knowing this I would probably not focus on any of the fire skills except for Enchant (meaning no synergies) and instead put my points in one of the cold armors and then fill up static field, teleport or something else. Or, if viable, maybe go for a ES+Telekinesis setup since you will be carrying a few Sparkling GC's anyway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  12. Kitriara

    Kitriara Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Zoo, not synergizing Enchant kind of defeats the entire purpose of an Enchantress, plus Enchant itself does very little without synergies.

    As we mentioned, with the help of a Merc (I'd maybe go with Holy Freeze for crowd control, thats what I did with mine and I found it insanely helpful, plus I had Delirium which helped A LOT) and her loaded with some Crushing Blow, it should be somewhat manageable, if not lightning fast. The idea of use a lot of high-damage charms could also definitely be viable, though I've never personally tried it, and I only have about 4 charms total that would fit the bill.
     
  13. zoo

    zoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Hehe well, yes, I understand what you mean and I agree. Enchant still gives some attackrating so it's not a complete waste. I am not sure how much ar is needed after conviction though so sure, enchant might be a complete waste without synergies. My point was that since most of the enemies will be fire immune anyway, extra fire damage will not help. Maybe this build will be the only one that benefits from maxing a cold armor AND at least one of its synergies. :)


     
  14. JihadJesus

    JihadJesus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    Yeah, I'm not too worried about immunities if I'm putting out three different damage types (lightning, fire, and physical via CB), although I'm starting to realize it may not be any easier to find the charms than the Jah runes. The lightning damage is essential, too, even with Static, but saying that 4k+ extra damage against Baal is 'useless' is a bit off. It might not be the major part of your DPS IF you're packing double Dream and Infinioty, but I won't be at least initially.

    And to get actually GOOD run speeds, I probably would need an Infinity. Looks like I may need to keep rune hunting for a while. And ugh I hate rune hunting.

    Whoever mentioned the speed issue was right, too. It's just too big a disparity between the -10 and -30 WSM to justify even trying it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  15. Kitriara

    Kitriara Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    I'm probably just showing my resist-breaking ignorance here, but is there a hard-coded rule that once a resist reaches a certain number, its unbreakable?

    According to the Arreat Summit, Minions of Destruction have 120 fire resist.
    http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-baalsminion.shtml

    That is not by any means unbreakable, unless someone can please correct me. Jihad, that would mean a wand with Level 2 lower resist charges (-37) would bring the Minions to 83 fire resist, allowing you to damage them.

    Am I totally wrong here? If not, having a LR wand on switch would help a lot for big fights before you built up Infinity.



     
  16. onderduiker

    onderduiker Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    On /players 8 Lister the Tormentor has 239,238-267,056 life while his Minions of Destruction have 179,428-200,292 life, Damage Resist 50%, Fire Resist 120% and Lightning Resist 33%.

    Lister will always have at least DR 50% and LR 53%: if the Stone Skin bonus is applied before he acquires a second immunity he will become Immune to Physical with DR 100%, and if the Magic Resistant bonus is then applied he'll have LR 93%; he can only become Immune to Lightning if the Lightning Enchanted bonus is applied before he acquires a second immunity, resulting in LR 128% (if he also spawns Stone Skin he will still have DR 50% if it's selected and displayed second).

    The fourth wave of Ventar the Unholy and his Venom Lord minions aren't Immune to Fire in Hell, although they do have FR 95% so Ventar will always be Immune to Fire if MR (FR +40%) or Fire Enchanted (FR +90%) bonuses are applied before he acquires a second immunity.

    The fifth wave of Lister the Tormentor and his minions are Immune to Fire with FR 120%, which can be broken by combining an Infinity polearm's Level 12 Conviction Aura When Equipped with level 1-3 Lower Resist charges. However, Lister's immunity could not be broken if the FE bonus were applied before he acquired a second immunity.

    Ventar the Unholy and his Venom Lord minions only have LR 0%, and he can never become Immune to Lightning: he would only have LR 115% if LE (LR +75%) and MR (LR +40%) but, since he's already Immune to Poison and has FR 95%, he would already be Immune to Fire because MR's FR +40% is applied before LR +40% (and so it would not be applied because he already has two immunities).

    Bartuc the Bloody (always LE) will become Immune to Lightning when he spawns MR, but LR 115% can be broken by level 12 Conviction.

    It's worth pointing out that no monster in the Throne of Destruction can be both Immune to Physical and Immune to Lightning at the same time (although Burning Souls have Damage Resist 90%, they'll never have more than DR 90% or LR 100% since they're also Immune to Poison already: this means that even LR charges can always break their lightning immunity).


    Not as far as I know, although there are practical limits based on Resist -% that can actually be applied: a combination of level >24 Conviction (Resist -150%/-30% vs immunity) and level >59 Lower Resist (Resist -70%/-14% vs immunity) won't break Resist >143% fire, lightning or cold immunities.

    A combination of level 12 Conviction (Resist -85%/-17% vs immunity) and level 2 LR charges (Resist -37%/-7% vs immunity) would reduce FR 120% to FR 96%.


     
  17. JihadJesus

    JihadJesus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    In practice I wouldn't be carrying a LR wand. If I'm understanding the above resistances right, it sounds like I'm correct in assuming that I can kill all of the waves with either fire or lightning damage, and most of the SUs, but may have to rely on CB to kill specific rolls for Lister. Since Lister also has high physical resists this means that those rolls would probably just be run killers in practice most of the time, and many more so would be before I have an Infinity to make a 95% resist actually vulnerable.

    Since most of the trouble will be from Lister's ability to roll FI/LI with high physical resists occasionally. maybe the ultimate setup might include Cold Mastery and stacked cold charms over more lightning once Dream and Infinity are in place; that would provide another source of damage against the primary bad roll, and wouldn't noticeably hurty my fire or lightning damage. Might not really make much of a difference, though.

    Looking more and more like Infinity at least will be a requirement before I can make a real push though. Dang.
     
  18. zoo

    zoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    @onderduiker: When I calculated unbreakable immunities I didn't think about LR at all, thanks for pointing that out. And I also made the mistake of looking at the Act 4 Venom Lords when checking for resists. And I also forgot about magic resistance. You learn something new everyday, thanks. :)

    If you realy want to damage originaly FI monsters with a say slvl 30 enchant, you will need to lower their resistances more than to 96%.

    I would be concerned with AR if going without Infinity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  19. JihadJesus

    JihadJesus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    I don't want to damage 130% FR monster with enchant after breaking immunity; I want to damage them with lightning. The enchant in for monsters with 130% LR and Baal.

    The problem is it looks like there are a few rolls which are problematic regardles. I suppose that's pretty inevitable and I'm not too worried about that; it just sounds like there's the potential for a LOT of the SUs to be tough to kill before Infinity is knocking down the high-but-not-immune off resist.



     
  20. zoo

    zoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: The dream project: theorycrafting a Baal running enchantress

    I understand that. :)

    I went back to the Arreat Summit to try and find the real resistance values of the monsters in the waves and found them listed under guest monsters of A5. Looking at the right numbers this time, fire damage looks a lot stronger and useful than I originaly thought.

    @onderduiker: When factoring in the Magic Resistant bonus, does this mean that three of the five super uniques (Save Achmel and Ventar) have the potential of being immune to both fire and lightning at the same time?


     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010

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