The Diablo 3 Podcast #128: Economy, Item System, and Binding

LightDashzz

Diabloii.Net Member
They have said in an interview that they are happy with the decision to have all your damage be mainly determined by your weapon, which is 1 of the biggest flaws in D3 mechanics and also highlighted by Azure in the podcast.


RoS was a good chance for a huge revamp to clean up all the mess but nope...
 

ShadoutMapes

Diabloii.Net Member
They have said in an interview that they are happy with the decision to have all your damage be mainly determined by your weapon, which is 1 of the biggest flaws in D3 mechanics and also highlighted by Azure in the podcast.


RoS was a good chance for a huge revamp to clean up all the mess but nope...
Link?
Kinda sad if they have said that.
Not that all your damage is really determined by your weapon, the trifecta stats helps a great deal.
But the weapon surely matters a lot.

Seemed to me that it is being reduced in RoS though. DPS on weapons is growing slower than the bonuses from other stats from what I have seen.
 

HardRock

Diabloii.Net Member
Seemed to me that it is being reduced in RoS though. DPS on weapons is growing slower than the bonuses from other stats from what I have seen.
This is true. Looking at pure damage, base weapon DPS makes up less than about 40% of a weapon's damage, even less in case of Legendary weapons. The rest comes from +damage affixes and again, I'm not counting attack speed and other damage boosts at the moment. This doesn't mean much though, because as far as I know, weapons always come with +damage now, or at lest very often. I don't think I've ever seen one without +damage on the PTR.

I have a feeling though that LightDashzz was talking about the fact that all skills do damage based on our weapons. I have absolutely no problem with this and in fact like this system. Yes, some stats are more homogeneous as a result, but we'll have other ways to specialize our gear in RoS that will make our characters stand out. There's no need for the physical/caster class divide.
 
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ShadoutMapes

Diabloii.Net Member
Skills doing %dmg is a good thing. Solves some issues from D2.
And not really related to the importance of weapons.
 

Disciple of Erebos

Diabloii.Net Member
My personal opinion comes in two points. First, even if the weapon is the most important piece of gear in determining overall damage (which, as HardRock and Mapes have said, may not be the case), I don't really have much of a problem with that. In terms of fantasy lore, weapons tend to have the most focus in terms of a character's prowess as a warrior (which in game terms usually translates into DPS). Aragorn wields Anduril, the re-forged version of the legendary sword Narsil; Link wields the Master Sword; King Arthur wields Excalibur; Cloud Strife wields the Buster Sword; and there are many more examples like these. Tons of heroes (and villains) are known for their legendary enchanted weapons; much fewer are the characters known primarily for enchanted shields or magical armors. From a gameplay perspective, this may not be the best choice, but I personally think that it makes sense that the weapon determines a good portion of a character's power. If damage is going to be %-based (which I agree is a welcome change) then I feel that on a conceptual level at least, it doesn't feel wrong to have a lot of damage come from the weapon.

Second, I think that the best fix for this 'problem' is to greatly diversify the way that weapons work. Currently, the only differences in weapons is the base attack speed, and sometimes the weapon type (in case you have skills/passives that care about that sort of thing). Some special classes of weapons can roll special mods, such as +AP/APoC on wands, but by and large, weapons tend to all feel the same. I think that a lot of the 'problem' could be circumvented if weapons felt very different in how they acted. Now, how Blizzard could do that I'm not so sure. Probably my best guess at how to diversify weapons would be to associate an element with certain classes of weapons, and have elemental damage/'elemental damage skills deal X% more damage' affixes have a higher chance of rolling on specific weapons, or have those specific weapons have the possibility for a higher roll than otherwise possible.

To explain this system, you would break down weapons into each element: physical, fire, cold, lightning, arcane, poison and holy. As an exemplary possible breakdown, blunt weapons (hammers and maces), mighty weapons and fist weapons would be associated with physical, slashing weapons (swords and axes) would be fire, stabbing weapons (daggers) would be cold, shooting weapons (bows and xbows) would be lightning, casting weapons (wands and staves) would be arcane, ceremonial knives would be poison, and daibos and flails would be holy. These weapons would have a higher chance of spawning with elemental damage of their type, and a higher roll in their particular elemental damage affix than other weapons could roll. Thus, if you were playing a Barbarian, you might want either a hammer/mace or mighty weapon for a physical skill build, or an axe for a fire skill build. A Wizard might want a wand specifically for an Arcane-heavy build, or a dagger for a cold build, or even a bow (forgoing a focus) for a lightning build. This is not to say that this system would make it impossible for a non-aligned elemental affix to roll, just less likely. This would provide incentives for playing certain roles with certain weapons (or the reverse; wanting a certain weapon class because you're playing a certain build).

Another possible solution (taking a bit of a bite out of Dark Souls style) would be to classify skills by the kind of damage they deal. For example, for Barbarian skills, Bash would be defined as a 'blunt damage' skill, Cleave would be a 'slashing damage' skill, Ancient Spear would be a 'piercing damage' skill, Earthquake would be a 'casting damage' skill, and Weapon Throw would be a 'ranged damage' skill (for this purpose, synonymous with the previous definition of the 'shooting weapon' class). These definitions of skill damage types would correspond to weapon supertypes: hammers, maces, flails and fist weapons for blunt damage, swords, axes and mighty weapons for slashing damage, daggers and bows for piercing weapons (bows overlap piercing and ranged), bows and xbows for ranged damage, and finally wands, staves, ceremonial knives and daibos for casting damage. These weapon types would all carry an innate, passive bonus to skill damage with skills that share a damage type with them; there would be no penalty for skills that do not. Thus, the game does not force you to decide on a weapon based on your build, but it does give you a little bonus for picking a weapon class that complements your build. I think that a system like this could also help to fix some of the issues with weapons right now.

Ultimately, both ideas I presented are of course very early, first-thought ideas, and would have to be refined quite a bit to be worthy of inclusion into the game. That said, while I think that there are problems with both ideas, I also think that both ideas are capable of being refined into useful additions that help to solve the 'problem' that weapons pose in D3.
 

HardRock

Diabloii.Net Member
Disciple, your idea may be a draft only, but still I'd like to see something like this in the game. The loss of effectiveness when mismatching a weapon / skill combo don't even have to be that high for this to work. Basically this system could be simply another way to specialize on certain skills a little more.
 

Disciple of Erebos

Diabloii.Net Member
I never imagined it as a really high drop in effectiveness; you should be able to choose whatever weapon you want, while still feeling a connection to certain classes of weapons. I'd imagine that the best placement would be about a 10-20% increased effectiveness. Just something to give you a better idea of what build you wanted to play. Contrary to the thinking of some people on this site, I fully believe that builds are still possible in D3, even with infinite respecs. Hell, once I found out about it, I used PlugY to perma-respec myself whenever I played D2 and Median XL, and I still had builds. In D3's case, a build is more of a fluid thing than it is in D2 without respecs. You pick a style of play you like and build your skills and item choices around that. The systems of weapon choice I proposed would be to add a bit more depth to the weapon choice, without taking away one's ability to make a different choice without feeling noticeably gimped. Basically, my feeling is that each choice should be a little extra bit of min-maxing. If you really want to min-max, you decide what you want to build, look at all of the choices and pick all the choices that give you the most plusses. But for a regular player, you should be able to play fine as long as you make choices based on a plan, even if you don't actively min-max.

As a regular player of RPGs like the Final Fantasy series and the Fire Emblem series, I like min-maxing, but I prefer game systems that reward min-maxing without penalizing players who don't min-max. I am fine with min-maxing being necessary for the highest game challenges, but simply completing the game should require smart play without making min-maxing necessary. For example, most Final Fantasies can be completed with any possible party of characters, but defeating the game's hidden Bonus Boss(es) usually requires specialized parties and strategies that maximize your strengths while minimizing the boss's advantages. Basically, from a Diablo standpoint, I'm fine with having mostly min-maxes, cookie-cutter builds be necessary for Torment VI, but Torment I or II should be accessible to any class or build that hasn't completely screwed up. Thus, the ideas I proposed would be just another small way to add a bit of extra choice and power without putting a strong limitation on players who don't want/care about doing it.
 

Kregling

Diabloii.Net Member
Totally agree. The one nice thing about having Azzure on the podcast is that he seems to draw out a lot of people in the comments with his very strong opinions.
While I played and enjoyed D2, if D2 is at it\'s best during Mephisto runs, then, wow! I am so very very very glad that D3 is not a copy of D2.
By Azzure\'s defintion, I would be considered a casual player (I \'only\' put in ~100 hours into D2 and ~150 into D3) and I have never wanted to go back to D2. In D2, I do not have any significant memories of finding my first great legendary or a Zod or some super valuable legendary, so that\'s why I have trouble holding up D2 as the best game ever. Not saying I played D2 the right way since I did not participate in trading or fighting the same boss 1000s of times, but at least with D3, I can say that I knew how to progress and it did not involve fighting the same exact enemy 1000s of times. I do not find that fun, but I\'m not going to claim to be an expert and speak for every Diablo player out there. For me, when I got my first Zuni\'s Marrow through the AH, I was more excited for D3 than I had been for any other game in years. I knew how to get the item, how to save up for it, and so when I achieved my goal, it felt like a lot of hard work paid off. Fighting the same monster 1000s of times sounds like grinding at it\'s worst... far worse than I hear for any MMOs, even EQ. I\'m sure Azzure will bring up pyschology or some other cop out, but I wish he would stop pretending he speaks for all players. He is a D2 elitist, which is fine, but I wish he would stop pretending that he knows better than every single other player out there, especially for D3, which he disdains so greatly
And thank you to Flux for being able to maintain some balance to the podcast. I do not know how you stay so calm when you guys disagree so widely.
I think next time Azzure is on, we need to come up with Azzure D3 bingo. We could randomly mix up phrases like \"BOP is the worst thing ever\", \"I can\'t imagine anything worse than the AH\", \"I can\'t imagine anything worse than BOA\", \"All gamers hate D3\", \"Jay Wilson ruined this game\", \"Josh Mosqueira ruined this game\", \"Wyatt Cheng ruined this game\", \"Flux is totally wrong\", \"Pandas make sense in context\", \"Pyschology says that...\"
 
J

jake

Guest
Azzure is spot on with what the gamers want. D3 developer judgement is inept. It is disappointing that they are not learning from their mistakes.

Flux, I don\'t know if you are just playing devils advocate, but you sound like a nub when you discuss d2. Azzure should sit in more often to add actual insight to the discussion in the future.
 

HardRock

Diabloii.Net Member
Azzure is spot on with what the gamers want.
Or alternatively I think it's also possible, that every individual have different values and priorities, so nobody really knows what gamers as a whole want. Well, either that or I'm not a gamer, because I'm pretty happy with the expansion so far, even though in general I agree with Azzure on item binding (drop chances has to be balanced by inconveniences in trading).

By the way, at around 5 minutes Azzure very clearly said that his opinions probably don't represent the majority of players, only the majority of hardcore players. Even though that's still generalization, that group is very small when you look at the total number of players.
 

Flux

Administrator
That is exactly wrong. Our debate over the likely value of gold in RoS was entirely based on likely changes to the game. I thought the devs would make changes to make gold much less useful since it was the only important thing in D3. And they did. Total binding makes it even less useful than I ever imagined.

If you appraise gold on a 1-10 scale of no value to maximum value, it\'s about a 9.5 in D3. For Ros I was expecting it to be about 4 and Azzure was expecting about 7. It\'s actually about 1.5 on that 1-10 scale, which is a lot less valuable than even I expected, but clearly I won that prediction race.
 
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