Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel if

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Kiroptus, Aug 29, 2009.

  1. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    At least until they play the game.


    I believe the biggest problem with this community is that noone here seem to have a proper vision of what a sequel to D2 would look alike, hence when it started to take shape with Blizzard's announcement in D3, you would see why so many people are so heavily against many aspects of D3: Because a sequel to D2 would be a mess when all the opinions about the enviroment we experienced in those past 8 years in bnet would start clash against each other.

    But what was so wrong in the enviroment we played?

    Diablo 2 is chaos, its an anarchy of a multiplayer game. As a SP game, it works but when it went into MP terrain, the result wasnt pretty with all the exploits happening in the game and the lack of effort into balance. Problem is, it continued to stay like this for way too long and no ARPG had a proper MP enviroment like Bnet and Diablo 2 carried Blizzard's name which was a huge plus so even with all its mistakes, Diablo 2 was embraced by a huge community.

    But again, exploits, imbalanced and free-hack/dupe enviroment continued to plague bnet but the community adapted to it but then something worse happened, people not only adapted to it, they started to embrace it as part of the game itself. People rushed their characters to Cow level and would leech XP from lv 1 to lv 80 in a matter of hours pre 1.10 and after 1.10 they would follow and watch the hammerdin bot in Baal Runs as there was no need to do anything else than watch as a single powered Hammerdin was more than enough to solo 8ppl hell baal. (and there are still people complaining about respecs in D3...)

    Blizzard couldnt care less about what needed to be fixed in D2 as they were collecting the golden eggs of World of warcraft so D2 was left in that state.

    That was Diablo 2's MP and how the community was crafted: from a chaotic, abandoned (by Blizzard's part at least) and exploitable game. Dont get me wrong I loved D2 at the time but as time goes by everything started to wither as I realised the game needed some extra time from its developers but never had it.

    The game design within D2 is a mess and it never worked to create the Multiplayer hack and slash it was supposed to be, at least in BNET. With PK on the game, a duped economy and an overall sense of grief by everyone around you stealing your loot, Diablo 2's MP always felt like something unwanted.


    So how to please a community that was crafted in such an enviroment with a more "sane" design approach, after all 10 years have passed and what worked in games 10 years now would be a complete design failure. Did anyone really thought that the hostily system would ever come back in an instanced modern RPG multiplayer-game for example? Could a community that has always dwelled in a broken game enjoy a different design approach?


    No matter what Blizzard announces for D3 and whatever design decisions they decide to bring in, no one will be pleased and discussing arguments about it seems more and more pointless for each feature announced. The game is probably 2 years from being released and through those 2 painful years everyone will be scorning at every move that Blizzard does with the game, unless the players have a chance to actually play the game, everyone will still want Diablo 2.5 because of the safety and convenience that the game achieved so far despite all its mistakes.

    I just dont feel any need to discuss anything related to D3 in the community, even on these forums which is easily the best Diablo forum when it comes to the users but its just a long wait until D3 and way too many arguments about feature X and Y and etc.... A a long series of arguments about whatever elements dont fit Diablo, or the art, or the items, the skills, the tone of the game, etc...

    Maybe its time to accept that Diablo 2 was a game full of issues, a game that used 2D sprites and its close to being 10 years old. We may have loved the game for all its quirkness and mindless fun it offered but nowdays Diablo 2 is a failed Multiaplayer game for the concept it offered at first. So we cant base a sequel on being so alike it. Infact the more different Diablo 3 is looking from Diablo 2, more and more I love it because it shows that Blizzard learned from its mistakes.


    But hey, what does it matter? <sarcasm>Diablo 3 is being aimed to the carebears because of its lack of PK and its now shiny, cartoonish and colorful like WoW.</sarcasm>
     
  2. lone_wolf

    lone_wolf Diablo: IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2003
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    yet those of us that play mp in LAN never experienced all that crap. Of course blizzard could not let that go on so of course that feature had to go becasue of "piracy".
     
  3. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    Thank you for that post, I agree with pretty much all of it.

    The perhaps most annoying thing is how big part of the community has become so accustomed to exploiting that they're against features (e.g. respecs) that would reduce or even remove the need for said exploiting. It's equally annoying that this attutide couldn't have become so widespread if it hadn't been for the state the game has been in for a long time.

    Sure, 1.13 will bridge the gap between D2 and D3 somewhat and hopefully make it easier for people to adapt to some of the major features to come, but then again the reason that patch is even being made is because Blizzard wanted to bring people back to D2 rather than simply fix the old issues that have plagued the game for a long time. More people playing D2 equals more people buying D3. It's all about money.

    At least we can find comfort in the fact the nay-sayers aren't in charge of the game design and that the game series has a seemingly bright future.
     
  4. lone_wolf

    lone_wolf Diablo: IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2003
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    moonfrost i cant speak for others but the only reason im against respecs is that i have experienced first hand how they can destroy games and devide players so easily. Personally i will never use it in diablo 3 if you want to use them fine i just hope blizzard is smart enough to prevent people exploiting it over and over.

    The problem with respecs is that if they are not properly balanced you can(as have happened in the past) end up with a game where the poor newcomers find that they never meet anyone else but a few other noobs that try to make their way through the game. The high level players have their respecs so they never go near the earlier parts of the game and leave the noobs to fend for themself. Basicly dividing the player base in 2 groups the noobs that have not gotten far enough to even interact with the more experienced players and the "leet" players who when they tire of playing their highlev characters as the build they have just respec to another build and play the same end game content over and over with the same char just respecced into a new build for that character class.

    In cases where this happens the majority of the "leet" players never make more character then there are character types and once that is done they just endlessly respec the same chars over and over.

    As you can see there is a deeper concern towards respec then just respec=bad. Hopefully blizzard can manage to balance things out right.

    But then again we have had 12 patches to solve the fend bug and various other bugs that are by now several year old. It has yet to happen.
     
  5. CoQui

    CoQui IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2008
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    102
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    I feel ready for sure. I understand completely now how great D2 was for it's time. Blizzard has learned a lot from then and with WoW, they understand a lot more what players want out of PvP and PvE. They'll incorporate a lot of it and 1+ it all. I think it's time for the sequel but yes, you will get those that don't know wtf they want out of it.
     
  6. NJS

    NJS IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    lone_wolf that may happen assuming there is no Hardcore, which I would be EXTREMELY shocked if there wasn't. Knowing the countless ways to die in HC, I can easily predict there will be no shortage of experienced players in the lower level areas, such is still the case with D2 HC.

    I don't touch SC because it feels like playing the game on god mode to me personally, so I guess its a problem (if it happens) that I'll never have to worry about.
     
  7. Seryphim

    Seryphim IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    This is actually the first criticism of the respec system that I have actually thought was potentially legitimate, and I agree that it might happen if Blizzard takes respecs in the wrong direction, and would be horrible for DIII.

    I read a quote from Bashiok about respecs somewhere (I think on the official boards) that they will definitely be controlled quite a bit, much more than in WoW. Ideally the control system they figure out will prevent such a divide from being created.


     
  8. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,658
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    It may be "so annoying" for some you to hear people complaining and discussing d3, but for many of us it is fun. Plus, after all the neglect Blizzard put us through with d2, we have every right to complain about them.
     
  9. bombadilb

    bombadilb IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    I agree with alot of what you had to say however I do not believe Blizzard has abandoned this game. How many games that were released 10 years ago are still being patched? How many games that were released 5 years ago that are not on a subscription basis being patched?

    I agree though that D2 could have been better and I bet you D3 will have its flaws as well but what it comes down to is how much fun the game actually was. If the game wasn't fun people wouldn't be complaining about its flaws 10 years later. If they can release a game that is as fun for even half as long as D2 was I will be a happy camper. If not, I will go back to playing D2.
     
  10. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    How many companies even last 5 years, let alone 10?

    I'm not saying that Blizzard isn't one of the best gaming companies in the world, but you shouldn't see 1.13 as much more than an attempt to draw people back into D2 and generate hype. When it comes to drawing people back into an old game, few things are better than announcing a new patch or, even better, a sequel. It's not a coincidence that 1.13 was announced after D3 was (4 years after the previous content patch) and it's not a coincidence the developers asked for player input on what to include in the patch (seeing the bug fix you've long waited for might make you play again).

    D2 sales went up significantly after D3 was announced and a similar effect should be expected when 1.13 is released. Assuming it will be released, of course. Apparently it's on hold until the Blizzard's legacy game dev team are done patching WC3.

    lone_wolf: I've read your post but figured it best not to turn this thread into another "respec vs no respec" thing, so I'll refrain from replying for now.
     
  11. Chrissjg

    Chrissjg IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    The one thing that bothers me with what you said. Don't get me wrong I agree with you on most of what you said. But the last thing you said was
    Diablo3 is going to become like WoW or something like it but I must remid you of something. Remember you said that Blizzard has shown signs that they are aware of the mistakes they have made in the past? Well WoW is one of them nobody plays WoW and they are so desperate to get the 15$ a month from 4 million people again, they decided to make a new expansion... I do not believe that they would try and make Diablo 3 like WoW and lose it big time when we strike


     
  12. tmorrow

    tmorrow IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    77
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    StarCraft released 31 March 1998 - 23 patches since November 1999.
    Diablo 2 released 29 June 2000 - 8 patches since June 2001.

    D2 has been riddled with bugs since the beginning. Blizzard's patch record in D2 is woeful, even compared with their other non subscription games, e.g. StarCraft which in comparison has hardly any bugs - http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=14595190100&sid=3000. D2 on the other hand still has character breaking bugs, broken skills and even critical gameplay bugs that kick all players out of a running game for example.

    I compare Blizzard's D2 patch record to Microsoft and its Windows products, they know the bugs are there and they have no intention of fixing them. The patches they do put out fail to address many of the long standing bugs that people have repeatedly cried out to be fixed.

    I'm sure there's some undisclosed, non financial reasons why D2 hasn't been adequately patched, maybe it is poorly coded, hard to fix something without breaking something else - whatever.

    Blizzard's D2 patch record has been a disgrace from the start and to try to justify that with the age of the game type argument is an insult to everyone who's purchased the game. If a game Blizzard are still selling has known, serious bugs then they should be fixed. Blizzard are aware of those bugs and have had ample opportunity to fix them so they really have no excuse.



     
  13. Crudesash68

    Crudesash68 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,023
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    348
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    This post is so full of wrong, I do not know to start. Wow expansions are huge, preplanned and coordinated events; WoW is not just a successful franchise, but one of the most successful ventures in gaming history. You do not have to be a WoW fan to appreciate it's success. Learn something before you post nonsense.



     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  14. engagequadlaser

    engagequadlaser Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    Removed
    10char
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
  15. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,658
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    Kiroptus, there are many good arguments both for and against respecing. You are implying that the arguments against all revolve around people wanting the broken d2 world in d3. You have to take all arguments for or against anything in d3 with a grain of salt. Much of it is just fun speculation, some venting over frustration with d2, thoughts and theories on what might work better, boring chit chat, and so on. It's not all boycotting and extreme high demand for specific things. Threads just sound passionate sometimes, and that is fine by me. People can't tack on "I know it will probably turn out good, but anyway here is what I think..." to every thread they make.
     
  16. the_tree

    the_tree IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    Kiroptus, I think you are being a little overly harsh on the entire D2 experience. You still play right? If not, there are certainly plenty of people that do. PLENTY of people that do. It's not a perfect game, but it's fun as hell. Is there a single other game like it? I've tried Titan's Quest and Sacred, the two games that came the closest to D2, and it didn't last long. They just aren't the same. They just don't have that D2 feel.

    DUDE, they have released update after update after update for this game. In fact, aren't we waiting for another one soon? 10 YEARS after the games release and Blizzard still updates the damn thing. That's INCREDIBLE. What other game can you think of where the creator is still releasing relevant updates to a game that long after the release?

    But then again, the D2 community is a bit . . . odd. For example, I love the reaction to respecs for 1.13. There has been some flipping out from a lot of people. "It's going to ruin the game" and what not. How? Because we won't have to keep rushing characters to experience different builds? [sarcasm]Bummer, because I hate it when pure grind is removed from a game. Because grind is SOOOOO fun.[/sarcasm] I freaking can't wait, there are about 10 skill points I wish I could move right now :wink:

    So I guess by the time I got done writing this I agree with you Kiroptus about the community. You are certainly right there. We are a bunch of weirdos.:crazy:
     
  17. Panserborne

    Panserborne IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    Either my reading comprehension skills need work, or yours do. Because I interpreted what he said completely differently to how you did. I'm fairly certain the sarcasm tags meant he was mocking the sort of D2 fans he was talking about in his post for their complaints about how D3 supposedly equals WoW.


     
  18. Panserborne

    Panserborne IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    And I also find Lone Wolf's warnings of badly done respecs interesting, far more persuasive than most arguments I've seen. If you don't mind me asking, what game/s have you played that had this problem regarding isolated newbies in the past?
     
  19. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    I highly doubt respecs will be implemented so poorly that they segregate the player base. Even if they would, that sort of assumes that veteran players and new players already mix to a fairly high degree in D2 and that respecs will change that for the worse. Even if you disregard D2 then it still assumes veteran players will want to mix with newbies, which is a pretty unrealistic assumption given that they very rarely do in other, similar games. People usually want to play with people whose skill/experience level is roughly the same as their own and I fail to see how respecs will change that.
     
  20. GoHabsGo

    GoHabsGo IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    77
    Re: The Diablo 2 community will never be ready for a sequel

    A chaotic and abandoned game by Blizzard? They are about to release the 1.13 PATCH. You're talking about a game that cost you 50$ almost TEN years ago, which you we're able to play for countless hours and are STILL getting FREE updates almost TEN years after the original release. Not only we're we able to play this game on single player, but we had access to the best MP environment out there for FREE for once again, more than 10 years.

    You're talking as if the hacks and dupe have always been the plague of Diablo. Please! When did you start playing this game? I bought it the day original D2 came out and was able to play for years before battle net became a hard place to play. I was actually surprised to get that much quality playing time for such worldwide popular game. Not until late 1.9 did duping became a ''easy-to-do'' thing.

    You've got this whole thing twisted my friend. The reason people will never be ready for a Diablo sequel is not because D2 was flawed, it's because it was near perfect and people have a hard time imagining something that could top it.


     

Share This Page