Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

The dead aren't in heaven if you're Christian

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Dondrei, Sep 8, 2006.

  1. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    36,855
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    467
    The dead aren't in heaven if you're Christian

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but on reading the Bible I noticed something very odd. Despite the way Christians always say "she's with God now" and so on, and seem to have this idea that the dead go straight to heaven, the Bible doesn't suggest that at all. In fact as far as I can tell what happens is that the dead are really dead until the Rapture (Judgement Day or whatever else it's called). Then the trumpets play and the dead are given eternal life (no mention of ascending into the clouds or anything, they seem to stay on earth, where Jesus comes back as king). It keeps saying the dead are sleeping, awaiting the return:

    The resurrections occur in stages:

    Not that one should believe Revelation, of course. But it's hinted at elsewhere, including the first one below. These two illustrate that the resurrection is as spirits rather than, you know, zombies:

    So I don't get it - is this something that got revised when Jesus failed to show up after a hundred years or so like he said and everything got a little awkward?
     
  2. HAMC8112

    HAMC8112 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    5,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Exactly! ....
     
  3. Veilside

    Veilside IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Probably because most christians can't be arsed to actually read what the bible says.
     
  4. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Messages:
    8,563
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    467
    I would caution against trying to discuss what Christians "always do".

    I, for one, would never say that to someone. That's almost as bad as telling a child that the Bible says you become an angel or something.
    That's my understanding of it, although in traditional Christian manner, every denomination has a different view.
    Indeed. The Jehova's witnesses, for example, do not believe in a heaven or hell: just a re-made Earth, so to speak.

    I'm not sure they are far from what the Bible was trying to portray.
     
  5. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    36,855
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Ah, well; point taken.

    This was my impression. And yet it seems so widespread.
     
  6. bg1256

    bg1256 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    4,436
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Of course, this is another topic of huge debate, and there is no real consensus on this issue among Christians.

    For example, Catholics believe in purgatory, which is definitely not the same as "going to be with the Lord," which is common in American Evangelical thought.
    Revelation was written in the first century about the first century. The only thing not worth believing is the entire "Left Behind" theology that comes out of it. And by the way, "rapture" cannot be found anywhere in the Bible... it's an extra-biblical concept.


    I'm not sure to which passage you are referring here; I'm assuming Paul's. If you are referring to 1 Corinthians 15, then no, it was not edited 100 years after Jesus because it was written very shortly after Jesus' life.

    Revelation, on the other hand, was written later (probably be a 2nd generation Christian), but it is about the 1st century -- not the future -- so it shouldn't be read a sa manual trying to predict exactly what will happen during the apocalypse. And for the record, I'm not an expert in apocalyptic literature, but I do know it's better to read these symbolically than literally.

    "Arsed"? Hmmm...

    But yes, you are probably right about that.

    Edit: I would also caution anyone from saying something like, "This is what the Bible teaches about subjects X or Y." The Bible is written by many different authors, who sometimes have different perspectives on issues such as this. Paul, for example, sees the resurrection in slightly different terms than the author of Revelations.

    Now, one can take that and argue against the credibility of the Bible, saying it contradicts itself; or, one can argue that it actually enhances the Bible's credibility, because there various pictures of God given. Food for thought, I hope.
     
  7. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Messages:
    8,563
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    467
    There are a lot of widespread opinions held by Christians that have little or no basis in the Bible.

    Abortion, for instance. *ducks for cover*
     
  8. bg1256

    bg1256 IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    4,436
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Stem cell research, evolution, etc., etc., etc.
     
  9. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    36,855
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    467
    I knew that actually, I just mentioned it because it's the name the Coming of the Kingdom of Heaven (or whatever it was called in the Bible) is most commonly known by.

    No, I mean did church teachings get revised at some point to suggest that the dead go straight to heaven (or hell or purgatory)? I'm sure that depends on denomination, of course.

    Well, I'd say you should take pretty much the whole thing symbolically but Revelations - well, I can't see how you could imagine it literally unless you're on some pretty serious drugs...

    I don't remember where Veilside is from, but that's a common expression in Australia and Britain.
     
  10. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    36,855
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    467
    I'm glad you said it, not me...
     
  11. Darkflight

    Darkflight IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Most christians i know think they will all go to heaven on Judgment Day.
     
  12. Merick

    Merick IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    6,862
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    466
    It must be hard to be a Christian, having to keep up on hundred of debates about doctrine. Studying all of the literature to keep up. Reading and re-reading The Bible, and thinking about what they personally believe, and talking about it with their preist.

    Or just accepting whatever they hear on TV. That works too.
     
  13. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Messages:
    8,563
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Bah, it's not fair to only apply that to Christians. I think that's what most people do when it comes to deciding on an issue. =P
     
  14. PatMaGroin

    PatMaGroin IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Agreed.

    But this is a nice find Dondrei, you're an atheist right, or something to that effect? You seem to read the Bible more than a lot of the Christians I know.
     
  15. Veilside

    Veilside IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    arse UK Show phonetics
    noun [C] (US ***) OFFENSIVE
    the part of your body that you sit on:
    She's got a huge arse.

    (from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
     
  16. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    36,855
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    467
    More or less. I have a spiritual side but I don't believe in any gods.

    Know thine enemy I guess... :wink3:

    Who said that, anyway? It's not actually a Biblical quote, is it?
     
  17. PatMaGroin

    PatMaGroin IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    466
    I doubt that's Biblical, probably an ancient famous general if I had to guess.
     
  18. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    36,855
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Maybe it's Art of War.
     
  19. raffster

    raffster IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,678
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Yes, Christians do not go to heaven immediately after death. They stay "asleep" in the grave and wait for the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns in his second coming (1 Corinthians 15:20-23). This is the first resurrection where believers will reign with Christ for a thousand years on earth and not in Heaven (Revelations 20:4).

    Then there is a second resurrection (Revelations 20:5) where the rest of the dead will be brought back to life. Christians believe that this is an opportunity for those who have not learned/accepted Christ to finally do so, otherwise they will suffer the penalty of the second death and that is to be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelations 20:15).

    There will be a new heaven and a new earth that awaits those who followed The Way. According to the passage, God will live with them (Revelations 21:3).

    In this context when someone is asleep he is unconscious of time passing. I am imaging that you are in some type of cyber-freeze cell sleeping and then awakened in the far future. So simply speaking, when you are dead and have no consciousness of time, how do you keep track of the time between your death and the time you are raised again?

    To PatMaGroin: It's "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matthew 5:44).
     
  20. TonoTheHero

    TonoTheHero IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Well, surely the people on earth made heaven would have helped the loved ones that outlived them. That believed in their goodness, and remembered them in times of need. Once they're in heaven, in paradise, their love will reach back to the people left behind ;)
     

Share This Page