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The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

Discussion in 'Demon Hunter' started by Flux, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    The "predict the fifth character" threads aren't much fun, since pretty much everyone expects a rogue/archer/ranger/etc. The only differences are in predictions for support skills; traps, stealth, pets, etc.

    So, to keep on that theme but refocus it, what do you imagine a ranger type char in D3 would have for their non-mana resource? Just to recap:

    Barb: Fury. Gains from dealing and taking damage, expends with skill use.

    Wiz: Arcane Power. A pool of set size, expended when spells are used, regens very quickly.

    WD: Mana. Same as D2. Large pool, increases with level/stats/item bonuses. Skills to boost regen rate.

    Monk: Spirit. Builds up from doing combo skills; expended by other skills.

    The theory with all of the resources is that they are appropriate for the chars and their designed play style. And are fun/awesome. So, assuming the 5th char is an archer type... how would a resource work? How should a resource work?

    Set max amount, like fury/AP? Or a pool of varying size, like mana? Does it fill from damage dealt by arrows/skills, like fury/spirit? Regen over time like mana? Refill after spells deplete it, like AP?

    Arrows/ranged attacks are generally about DPS and speedy shots. The char type (presumably) isn't about single huge damage hits, Barb style. It's about lots of shots in rapid succession. So maybe something that works with/boosts that?

    Chain combo damage that increases with successive hits/shots? Almost like the wizard's abandoned Instability? Missed shots cause a cool off, or combo breaker. (Think of the scene in LotR when Legolas stands in one spot and bags like 6 Orcs in rapid succession. Not that I'm necessarily recommending that, but it seems like an image the D3 devs might have seen and thought a cool inspiration.)
     
  2. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    That is an insanely hard question, Flux. Because we don't know whenever and how will the Archer be hybridized. An ideal resource system for a melee/archer hybrid character would be very different from a system an archer/summoner or an archer/spellcaster could use. It's like trying to imagine what people from Nation of Fluxmania wear without knowing where Fluxmania is on the globe.

    My first thought is to quickly scan through WoW to see if they tried anything there first. Unfortunately, the Hunter mechanic is Focus and it is basically Monk's Spirit. The second thought is to think about the original Hunter resource mechanic, also Focus, which worked by ARPG version of photosynthesis - you stood in place and it rapidly accumulated. That *might* work if the ranged char focused on traps or summons, but it could be too restrictive for an ARPG.

    Gotta think hard about this one. Though I since I really want to see a very motion centric archer (do not want a turret class), I would love a resource system that revolved around locomotion somehow.
     
  3. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    I think it'll have to tie in with the exact name.


    With the Barb, he was alwasy a furious berserker. If it was the same char, but called "warrior", Fury wouldn't match in name or function. A warrior can be furious, but is often seen as disciplined, whether it's an experienced merc good with a blade or a righteous paladin.



    WD is linked with spiritual, which was basically where the mana concept derives from.


    Wizards are a type of sorcs who specifically are haywire, so the up and down matches the char's atmosphere and mentality. Instability was a good name, but AP's function is basically what the char does--fast, blastiness, but all that offense leaves vulnerability (low resource).

    Monks are very linked to the spiritual, so still matches with the char's background.






    With the 5th, it can be a bow easily, but split between the thief/ranger/hunter. All 3 have the same weapon, but very different char backgrounds.


    I can't imagine a name, but I do like the accuracy function. Single attacks can raise it (like cleave on a barb), but a rapid fire would get less accurate (uses up that raised mana). With moderate regen, short bursts here and there are possible, but balanced against needing to focus your skills (aim) and thus shoot better.



    Kinda.
     
  4. permaximum

    permaximum Banned

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    Rogue's resource power may be Intensity of the Senses...

    More intensity means more accurate arrows (aoe) , quicker actions and combat (far,fcr, faster walking & running), more awareness ( line of sight, light radius, enemy info, trap-knowing) etc.

    Quick and critical slays generate more intensity, allowing the above and maybe their supporter skills.

    But i don't think Blizzard can think this...

    Edit:

    Rogue targets the gear with the highest possible dexterity to generate more intensity via quick and critical kills but theorically gear with high dexterity will have defensive weaknesses. Intensity will be percent based. 100% intensity in combats will only be reachable in the end game with really good gear. 100% intensity allows a special skill called Azrael takes the soul of demons and players (critical hit to heart-really fast life leech-cannot be cast upon undead). Skills will consume less intensity if you use the same skill in a row but in the same time your chance to critically hit will decrease greatly thus intensity-gain will be hard.

    Just a rough idea at 06:00 am...
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  5. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    concentration. really i have no idea that word just popped into my head so there it is lol
     
  6. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    You were going good (lacked a resource spending though) until the swipe at Blizzard.


    If someone who doesn't do this for a living can think of it on the spot, why assume an experienced team of professionals is incapable?


    Honestly, we can do without the snide spam.


     
  7. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    I would like the rangers mana pool to be called 'Balance'. It would be nice if it didn't work like traditional mana that meant you could only use skills if you had any mana.

    Instead balance will make your attacks give more criticals, more general damage, ias, more, more, more. So you can still use skills with the bulb being empty just that your shots will sux0r (but you can still leech a bit or something). *shrug* Best I can do.

    Early game mana issues for the zon was a pain in the arse. I would hope they would abandon the traditional mana pot system for future zon/rangers.
     
  8. Sylvanite

    Sylvanite IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    I like Intensity.

    Like Fury, except taking damage lowers it instead of raising it. You start at a medium level. It can go up or down from there. As it rises, you attack faster (and move and run faster?) and raise crit chance. As it goes lower you attack slower and lose crit chance.

    Taking damage lowers it slightly.
    Hitting with smaller attacks/single target attacks raises it.
    You spend it on larger(huge single target damage)/aoe attacks.
    When you are not attacking it moves up/down towards its natural equilibrium.

    Basically you could call this a "momentum" system. Like Fury, but with slightly different parameters and a trade off for spending it vs. keeping it that actually impacts how your character plays.
     
  9. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    They basically did something like that with Instability. They scrapped it because it wasn't an actual resource management system and it didn't change anything about how people played.

    And I am an idiot who forgot to read properly. It's different from Instability. Seems oddly complex compared to other systems though - merged with an array of passive effects and an active skill.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  10. Madmaxio

    Madmaxio IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    I just wonder what will u say when it will be another caster for example or melee. Oh lol.
     
  11. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    We will rage. Hard.

    Also, do we really need another combo centric resource system? Monk and Barb cover that niche well. WD and Wiz focus on more traditional systems. An Archer really feels like it should be given something unique rather being given a hamburger made out of the other resource systems. Being a physical ranged class is enough of innate hybridization as it is.

    I keep obsessing over a movement based resource. But every iteration I can think of is basically Wizard's Arcane Power which regenerates based on either moving or standing still instead of for freebies.

    Another idea is similar to perma's intensity in a way - have resource generation for rapid striking. For example, performing multiple attacks in a rapid succession raises the resource, but it is then another variation on Fury/Spirit.

    Perhaps there can be something to do with duality of bows in terms of attacking - deliberate attacks that take time to aim (represented by charge meters) vs. rapid fire machinegunning. Some system to create a relationship between them? Picturing an orb that has to compartments to fill. One compartment is filled by standing still and drained by skills and moving, other compartment is filled by moving but is drained by skills and standing still. Each compartment fuels different types of skills. Bleh, too complex and gimmecky. Brain drained, ranting, must sleepsorz. Still, cannot get rid of thinking about somehow incorporating something that inherently sets up a relationship between run and gun - stand and shoot. Someeething with mooooveeeement. BLAAAAARGUH.
     
  12. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    I don't care what it's called; except as that informs us about the function. I'm purely interested in what it does, and how that effects or stems from the char's designed play style.

    So how about this: A resource that's based on the char's proximity to the target?

    During development, D2 had bows that did not work at melee range, in a rare nod to realism. Every char had a kick ability, which essentially worked like Smite. Knock back the target, then you could shoot them. Kick got removed, and bows worked fine at melee range, in the final game. No doubt since trying to use a bow with realistic limitations wasn't any fun.

    Clearly the D3 team won't go with something as punitive as that, but what if their goal with the archer is to really emphasize deadly distant attacks? What if the Archer is all about the ranged; bows would still work at close range, but they'd do less damage, fire slower, and have knock back. Something like that. With more range, you'd fire more quickly and for better damage, and your skills would be more effective.

    The playing challenge then would be to use the support skills, pets, etc, to confuse, stun, slow, knockback, and otherwise control your enemies, thus keeping them in your ideal killing range. You're punished for letting enemies get in too close by your skills becoming less effective.

    I'm not sure how that concept leads to a resource design goal, though. Perhaps the resource would expend more rapidly at closer range? Change color as you got into the right range for different arrow skills? Turn red inside of too little range, and make any skill you tried to use instead do a big blasting smite type attack, to give you more space to operate?

    The other problem is that it would be hard. Characters would be expected to manage crowds and to control enemies constantly, and that's clearly a higher level of player skill than d3 is being designed to require. People who sucked with the archer would get constantly swarmed and would die and fail and have no fun. Even giving the char some really good escape/movement skills wouldn't fix that, since it would still take skill to know when/how to use them. Alas.
     
  13. Thecla

    Thecla IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    It also seems like it could lead to a vicious circle, with the rogue (calling the 5th class that just for the sake of definiteness) losing her skills exactly when she needs some to get out of trouble. Actually, getting stun-locked in D1 was quite a bit like that, but I sort of doubt D3 will be designed in the same way. For example, the Barb sounds like he'll gain fury when he's in trouble and taking damage.


     
  14. lone_wolf

    lone_wolf Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    Bah for all we know they could steal the way a rogue in dnd 4 edition makes the most of their class namely combat advantage.

    But i guess that would be a to tactical and to "slow" gameplay for diablo 3
     
  15. In the name of Zod

    In the name of Zod IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    I wonder how much pvp is considered when making characters. One could look at the skills current characters have, identify a rock paper scissors pattern and try to identify which characters the rogue has to sit between.
     
  16. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    Arrows.

    You have a passive flethcing skill on constantly regenerating your arrows. This is very wilderness-like as you scrounge for materials, but you have to imagine your zo--I mean fifth class is out fletching arrows when not killing. Arrows come in quanta, of course.

    Any melee builds with this chr do not have resource expenses. Swinging your bow to hit stuff is free of charge!

    Then, you can change you orb appearance and function by having barbed arrows, psn arrows, tarred arrows, etc.

    Edit: On a more serious note, I change my idea to "Ammunition". So your resource system changes based on your weapon. Great for hybrids. So instead of ticking off arrows each shot, you can have a dagger, java, star, spear, etc resource orb.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  17. sicilian

    sicilian IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    My other idea is to design the resource specifically for a ranged/melee hybrid. Call it a Ranger, and give it a spread of skills between bows and melee weapons, with a few of each being used to build up the resource, and a few of each being used to unload it. For both styles, regular attacks would increase the resource by small amounts. Some examples:

    Example 1, Ranged finisher: Uses melee skills that help build the resource, an escape skill or two to move quickly to bow range, then unleashes a powerful shot or two to finish off a group. This build would rely heavily on more armor and health, since it would have to survive the beating long enough to use the resource up.

    Example 2, Melee finisher: Uses bow skills to build resource as the enemies are approaching, then unleashes it in a melee flourish to finish them off. This build would need more damage modifiers to try to destroy the enemies with minimal melee encounter time.

    Problem I see with these though, is if there are both types of skills for each type (melee and ranged), it would be possible to create a character that only uses melee (which would make it very similar to the Monk).
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  18. Glass

    Glass IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    If it is an archer class...

    In the new WoW expansion, Hunters (an archer class) are being given a new resource system called "Focus" (atm they use mana like most other classes).

    I really hope Blizzard don't use "Focus" for it. Not because I care one bit what it's called, but because I can already imagine the whining :x
     
  19. Idaell

    Idaell IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    I am still really hoping for a Bard. I came up with this resource a while ago, also called concentration. It would work best for a range summoner, not just a bard.
    "Different abilities, such as song auras, and charm, would reduce total concentration when active. This is similar to how dragon age handles some spells, reducing maximum mana so the spell is constantly active. The bard could charm several creatures but doing so would reduce concentration, creating a cap for number of minions. Song auras could also reduce concentration so these would have to be weighed against eachother. It may even be possible to sing more than one song at once, given enough concentration. The remaining concentration pool could act like normal mana for regular abilities, such as a magic attack. Possibly including illusion spells?"
     
  20. Thecla

    Thecla IncGamers Member

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    Re: The Archer/Rogue/Ranger's Resource will be?

    Hmm, interesting --- even if it is called something different ("intensity," "inner sight," "concentration," "serenity," "chakra" or whatever) I wonder if the D3 mechanic might be similar. I don't play WoW, so I'm not sure how it works for Hunters, but it sounds like you have basic ranged attacks that build up focus (which also regnerates slowly) that can then be used for special attacks. (?) It does make sense to me that archers should build up their resource by firing arrows at stuff.

    The biggest question for me (if the 5th class is an archer) is how archers will cope with staying at range or escaping from melee, and that could certainly factor into to how its resource works.


     

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