Latest Diablo 3 News
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

teehee... glider lawsuit successful

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by MoUsE_WiZ, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
  2. coldsong

    coldsong Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2007
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    102
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    here's to hoping d3 is p2p :S
     
  3. MYK

    MYK Diablo: IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,024
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    256
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Go go the courts taking the TOS as law.
     
  4. WingBlade

    WingBlade Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2003
    Messages:
    2,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Ofc Blizzard would care bout their P2P gaming system...
     
  5. ZappaFan

    ZappaFan Hardcore Moderator and America Trade Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,564
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    488
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Wow that's awesome. Fine teh bot makar!
     
  6. Tai.

    Tai. Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Messages:
    2,593
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    I Loves It.
     
  7. TheDarkSide

    TheDarkSide Clan Officer - US East Hardcore

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    2,705
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    470
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Hackers should be destroyed !!!!



    :thumbup:
     
  8. ZappaFan

    ZappaFan Hardcore Moderator and America Trade Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,564
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    488
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    or in the very least fined into submission :)



     
  9. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Hardly, they've done plenty of C&Ds and even lawsuits in the past.
    Generally the matter gets dropped shortly after or the site disappears and resurfaces with a different name/owner but same members or whatever.

    This is the first time I've heard about them being awarded big bucks for it.

    The decision, though, might have to do with the fact that WoW is P2P, as every customer Blizzard loses to Glider they're losing 15$/month, that includes anyone they're forced to ban to keep the servers clean and anyone who has an issue with hacks ruining the game (which I suspect is a VERY small number... win trading and gold selling/spamming are the two bigger issues).

    @MYK I'm not sure if that's sarcasm or not. It's possible to take either way.



     
  10. CarsV

    CarsV Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Now if only they'll go after (web address deleted by ZF)...
     
  11. Azhul

    Azhul Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Why them? Don't they just facilitate trading items?


     
  12. ZappaFan

    ZappaFan Hardcore Moderator and America Trade Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,564
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    488
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    To the casual observer that's the appearance, but the site has a long history of promoting bot development & usage.



     
  13. MrBill

    MrBill Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    408
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    :rant:

    As many of you on these Forums know, I am strongly opposed to cheats and hacks of all types on multiplayer games, including but not limited to D2, D3 and WoW (although, in the latter case, I will probably never play due to the very high online fees). I have ranted and raved against TPPK, FarCast, Chantbots, Baalbots and all the other stupid things that dishonest players use to end-run the game system and give themselves unfair advantages over people who play the game(s) the way that they're supposed to be played.

    The WoW Glider case, however, is a vastly different situation and I think it reflects very poorly on the members of this Forum that you are all endorsing Blizzard's actions, evidently without considering their larger and very destructive potential implications for software development as well as for consumer rights.

    Without getting into the gory legalities of this dispute, which you can read about more extensively at:

    http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/05/do-you-own-your-software-wow-glider-case-not-just-

    Suffice it to say that Blizzard / Vivendi's lawyers -- who have a disgraceful record on issues like this, for example in the notorious "BnetD" case -- advanced an extremely misleading abuse of copyright law in order to shut down the WoW Glider manufacturer, using the totally spurious claim that "the minute you copy any application into RAM memory, if you do anything that the manufacturer disapproves of in your subsequent use of that application, you are guilty of (sic.) 'copyright infringement' (as opposed to simple 'breach of contract', under the software license that may have accompanied the application" (note that even in the latter case, there are very serious issues of fairness, namely the fact that the EULA's that usually are involved with commercial software are grossly one-sided to the benefit of the developer).

    As the EFF and several other digital civil rights organizations have correctly pointed out, this decision (and Blizzard's position), if not overturned on appeal or on other cases, would inevitably lead to an enormous expansion of corporate legal "rights" at the expense of consumer rights, because now, a software corporation (think of Micro$oft, Apple, anyone) could start suing any third-party add-on developer for "copyright infringement", for the heinous crime of developing an add-on that provided functionality that the original application had somehow neglected to add.

    This is doubly distressing because in this case, the wild and totally unjustified increase in corporate privileges would be imposed via the court system (in which you have the huge legal resources of Vivendi against some far less well-funded, small developer), as opposed to the political system, which is the forum in which major changes to economic and social policy are supposed to be decided, with political accountability for whatever effects these might later have on society. Blizzard and Vivendi are basically trying to use the WoW Glider case to unilaterally re-write the consumer protection laws to the exclusive benefit of huge, multinational entertainment corporations. This is an outrageous abuse of corporate power.

    In the case of WoW Glider, there is a reasonable argument that the "functionality" of this particular add-on was contrary to the basic purpose of the original application, e.g. World of Warcraft. The problem is, the WoW Glider case, if used as a precedent -- and there is a very real danger of this -- would inevitably lead to terribly perverse, anti-consumer consequences for software development, in many cases where there is no similar plausible case.

    What if, for example, Micro$oft decided, on the basis of the WoW Glider precedent, that it is "owed" a royalty (the magnitude of which would, of course, be decided unilaterally by Mr. Ballmer), for every third-party application that is in any way compatible with Window$? (I'm sure that Ballmer would love to sue Red Hat for every copy of the Samba network compatibility program, or every copy of OpenOffice for Window$.) How about Apple suing anyone who develops an add-on for iTunes, because all of these "violate Apple's 'copyright' on the iTunes program, the instant that it's copied into RAM"? There are thousands of similar possible cases, which, if allowed to go forward, would completely cripple third-party software development.

    And there is one other factor that you should consider. I don't live in the United States and, like virtually every other non-American, I am angrily opposed to the American concept of "extra-territorial" application of American laws, to those living in other countries.

    What happens when, based on the WoW Glider precedent, Blizzard sues some (say) French or British developer for some other "unauthorized" add-on to some Blizzard game, then tries to collect damages or extradite the "guilty party" to the U.S., based on U.S. legal precedents that wouldn't stand up for so much as a second, elsewhere? This has already happened in other software law cases and I can tell you Americans that it's extremely annoying to those of us who don't happen to have a U.S. IP address.

    Like, I suspect, 99.999999% of everybody else on the international Internet, I'd tell them, "drop dead". You Americans should, too. They're trying to trample on your consumer rights. If you don't defend these, and understand what the real issues are in this case, you'll be opening a Pandora's Box of unintended legal consequences. And we all know what road to where, is paved with these.

    Mr. Bill



     
  14. Azhul

    Azhul Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    As with the 700 billion dollar "bail-out," I'm just intelligent enough to say that the issue is slightly too complicated for me to be able to take a firm stance on. I do support the abolition of hacking, though.
     
  15. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    MrBill, here's the thing.
    US Copyright law is an issue. I don't dispute that. In fact, I'm basing my vote in Canada's upcoming election solely on the issues of net neutrality and fair use, and making sure my candidates are aware of that.

    That said, I don't agree with the examples you've listed.

    BnetD is a sketchy example... the thing is, it didn't have any particularily valid use OTHER than circumventing copy protection unless you want to try and argue their servers were more reliable than Blizzard's. Not only that, but the copy protection it circumvented at the time was copy protection for a game nobody even owned at the time (eg WC3 beta). On top of that, they were just straight up replicating IP that does belong to Blizzard.

    Microsoft picking what software runs on their OS is also sketchy. They already do that.
    It's a very good thing they already do that. If they didn't go out and actively work to prevent people from creating certain software for their system, and even go so far as to ensure criminal charges are pressed, the interwebs would still be getting owned by MS Blaster worm and others like it.

    I'm aware the legal issue behind MS Blaster doesn't have much to do with reverse engineering or EULAs, however the effect is still the same.

    This is why I'm all for the decision and opposed to the law.

    You say this decision hurts consumer rights?
    What about the rights of the millions of WoW players who purchased the product expecting to be able to play in an environment without botters?

    The laws are not specific enough... it is well past the time that video games started to receive laws that govern them specifically. If they did, maybe Blizzard wouldn't have to resort to (what you claim is) precedent setting anti-consumer tactics in order to maintain their products in a way the majority of their customers appreciate.

    It's the laws that should change, not the decision.



    As for US copyright law being applied internationally, they have every right to do that if they want to. If you don't appreciate it, make sure your government is aware of this, as it really is an issue with them and not the US (provided they don't just randomly invade ^^).

    I might post more later, but for now I'm at work and need to be going.
     
  16. Unholy_VI

    Unholy_VI Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    545
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Well I've read impressive arguments for both sides here.

    But I mostly go with my gut. And my gut tells me that The United States Government just inserted itself into my business in a very big and real way.

    I fully agree that Blizzard should have every right to ban people who break the 'RULES' of their game. Further it's reasonable that if people are selling pirated copies of their games or using the code they developed they ought to have legal recourse to sue them. it's even reasonable to go after people who put up alternative servers that allow people to play the game Blizz intended to charge a monthly fee for, to play for free.

    But this smacks to me of the court sort of allowing the 'RULES' to be treated the same as 'LAWS'. If I have a poker game at my house (illegal to begin with probably) I set the rules we play by. But those rules are not legally binding. if someone breaks those rules then they simply can't play in my game or I impose some other sanction against them for it. That's how it's been in WoW with the cheating problems so far and that's IMO how it ought to stay.

    Anything else I choose to buy is mine when I buy it. If I buy a car and decide to modify it and put in a lift-kit or whatever the manufacturer will certainly void my warranty but he's not going to sue me for modifying the product that I bought from him. the very idea is ridiculous. Same if I buy a book and decide to write notes in the margins of MY book that I BOUGHT. And you are telling me that after I have purchased some coded software that you developed and I decide to then modify MY copy that I purchased you can sue me??? If you detect that I altered your software and you deem that it's not acceptable to play your game with my modified software great. Suspend my account or ban it and go on your merry way.

    This company produced a product that people bought knowing the consequences of being caught using it. At least that's my understanding of it. Blizzard still got the money their customers paid for the game. They also got paid for the time those people played up until they were caught cheating and Blizzard DECIDED to close their accounts. Blizzard could have opted to impose a suspension (their game their rules) so I don't accept the argument that Blizz lost $15 per month per offender using that program.

    To go back to my first example this would be like suing the company that makes the lift-kit I purchased. Why? You already told me if I use that kit then you don't warranty my car. You already told me if I use this cheat or some other one I get my account banned. So do it and get over yourself. Most of those people banned probably bough another copy of the game and were back playing within a week anyhow to feed their addiction.

    Seems like the government has enough on it's mind these days without inserting its grubby mitts into gaming.
     
  17. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    The thing is, EULAs are theoretically legally binding contracts, so yes, the "rules", while not laws, are theoretically legally binding.

    On the one hand this is entirely ridiculous. Companies can hide all sorts of things in their EULA. Not only that, but generally speaking you don't get to read the EULA until after purchasing the product, and returning a game to a store is no easy task these days.

    On the other hand, since the laws are far too inspecific in the products they deal with, there isn't really another way for a company to say what you can and can't do with their software. No matter what you might think, you are not purchasing the software, just the right to use it... consider your car example, legally speaking it's the difference between leasing a car and purchasing it. You are not allowed to just go and do whatever you want to a leased or rented car, else you'll get into trouble.

    That said, I appreciate the whole 3rd party add-on argument.
    This is the main reason I feel the laws need to be more specific, and also less rights holder friendly.

    In the case of Glider, the value of WoW is likely to be hurt.
    It's the fact that Glider is directly effecting the IP itself, not the instance of the IP on a single user's computer, that makes this comparison stand up not only legally, but also conceptually. Glider is making WoW - not just one person's copy of it, but the product itself - less valuable as it detracts from the gameplay experience of other players whether they want it to or not.

    On the other hand, something like a no-CD crack (which is unecessary for WoW, just for argument's sake) has no effect on the value of the IP in that way. It doesn't matter to the guys you're playing with if you've got a CD in your drive or not. The IP remains just as attractive to others to lease as it would if you weren't using a no-CD crack. A no-CD crack could potentially lead to circumventing copy protection which could indirectly have an impact on the money Blizzard makes on WoW (lol, VERY hypothetical ^^), however in cases like this the 3rd party add-on should not be what is being blamed for the lost revenue, it should be the people commiting the crime.

    So far as I know US law does not prosecute firearms manufacturers. They are well aware of the fact that it's not guns that kill people, but people. They should get a clue and realize the same applies to piracy.

    So why do I consider it to be the fault of the author in the case of something like Glider, and the fault of the pirate in the case of a no-CD hack? Because there are legitimate reasons to want to use a no-CD hack, reduced power, reduced noise, reduced loads, etc. The only reason I can think of for Glider to exist is the same reason viruses have a reason to exist, intellectual purposes. Studying a problem can help get rid of the problem. Glider's author kind of threw that defense out by charging people 25$ for his bot.

    Here's the thing... other venues have specific laws to back up those rules.
    If you cheat in a casino it can be theft. I'm not sure if it is everywhere, but I'm aware that is in many places. If, on the other hand, you are doing something the Casino doesn't like that has you winning far too much far to regularily, they can't charge you with theft (well nowhere I've heard of can)... in some places they're allowed to ban you from their venue, in others they can force you to play minimum bets, or in some places they are not allowed to do anything. It depends on the regional law.

    In sports there are all kinds of rules that can be broken with various consequences.
    In some cases this just results in a penalty or suspension, this is essentially what Blizzard has the right to do.
    In some cases this can result in fines from the league... imagine if on top of a ban users of Glider got a 100$ fine that they were legally obligided to pay due to a pre-existing contract XD
    In some cases the law can step in. Steroids in MLB. Todd Bertuzzi was not convicted of assault, but he was charged. Rigging games. That sort of stuff.

    I don't see why video games, and software in general, shouldn't be allowed to have a point where the law becomes able to step in to ensure rules are enforced.
     
  18. Unholy_VI

    Unholy_VI Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    545
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Doesn't this strike you as Blizzard effectively being given a blank check to write the law then as pertains to their product? This is the distasteful and disturbing part of the whole thing for me. You might say it's fine and 'haha the haxorz got fined lmao!' but slow down a second here. Do we need another branch of government just for gaming? Should that branch be able to enact what amount to laws with basically no checks and balances?

    Can't Blizzard just continue to ban and close accounts of people who tick them off? I would be right on the bandwagon if the story was something like '50,000 accounts closed for using wowglider' which type of thing would definitely cause a loss of revenue for the company promoting that program. But this... this goes too far in my estimation.

    If you look back at my original post I agree that at some point there has to be legal recourse for a gaming company that gets targeted by hackers. The question is how far out do you draw that line?

    To me this is too far. The court should have told Blizzard 'You and your EULA is between you and your players. You handle this with them and quit wasting our time with it.'



     
  19. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    Aside from the semantics that contract and law are not the same thing despite being legally binding, yes, that is effectively what it is. As mentioned I consider this to be completely ridiculous, not only because of the amount of control it gives companies over their software, but also because of the fact that you are in the dark until after you've purchased&installed said software.

    The thing is, as ridiculous as it is, the way the laws are in place right now the court should not have told Blizzard that. They should have done more or less exactly what they did. Yes the EULA is between Blizzard and it's players, it just happens to be legally binding, so when one party breaches it, then the courts get to step in.

    And until the US (and many other countries for that matter) gets a clue and completely reworks their copyright laws, the courts will be obligated to continue to rule in favour of the EULA. Not because of this particular case, but because that is the way the law is written.

    So yes, regardless of where you want the line drawn, there does need to be more specific laws in place because if there are not then the current ridiculous set will continue to exist. Software companies in general should not be governing what is done with their software, not to the extent they currently do.

    Consider movies... they're in the same boat, you don't purchase a movie when you purchase a DVD, just the rights to do certain things with it. However in the case of movies what you can and can't do is governed by law, not a silly contract. The thing with software though is that there are all kinds of different types of software with all kinds of different purposes. As such if you want law to govern what can and can't be done with it at all the law either has to be as broad as it is now, or highly specific, and in this case governing video games specifically... likely even going further and distinguishing between single player, multi player (eg b.net), and mmo.

    As can be clearly seen since more or less the advent of online gaming, banning players for cheating does not get rid of the problem at all. In the case of something like Glider I honestly do think bannings are enough (keep in mind if they hadn't filed suit against Blizzard *FIRST* this might not have happened) as it doesn't have too negative an impact on gameplay. However keep in mind that firstly, some hacks have a much more negative impact on gameplay than Glider, and banning the user does little to restore the state of the game, and secondly, not all hacks can be detected and banned for.



     
  20. MYK

    MYK Diablo: IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,024
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    256
    Re: teehee... glider lawsuit successful

    It was a bit of both.

    I won't comment anymore about it after this, but I do agree with your last post in this thread.


     

Share This Page