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System to avoid dupes & bots

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by GardensAngel, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. GardensAngel

    GardensAngel IncGamers Member

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    System to avoid dupes & bots

    For the lazy reader: I've marked the key points of my ideas with (###), so you can catch most of the keypoints without reading all of it :)

    Dupes & Bots are my biggest concerns for Diablo 3. I'm pretty faithful that Blizzard will create a masterful game, but it can all be ruined pretty much by dupes & bots as it did for D2 (at least for me and many others). It concerns me if I can end up playing with/against(pvp) a gamer that bought 40 Highrunes for $7. I want to play in a legit version of D3 if possible.

    (###)So the big question is: Is it possible to make up a system/method for Diablo III, that would greatly limit the amount of dupes and bot'ed items? Do You have any ideas for it?

    I have an idea for it, it might be way off, but I'm writting it down anyways :)

    Lets me do these assumptions:
    1) There wont likely be dupes in Diablo III, if/since it will use the same kind of serversystem like WoW, which vastly diminish the amount of dupes. (I'm unsure about this claim, feel free to discuss this if you got something to add)

    2) Sadly there'll most probably be people outhere running multiple bot programs 24/7, in order to collect huge piles of items/gold, and sell it via various websites. Looking also at many MMO's today, this lucrative botting business seem unstoppable.

    The catch is to find a way to limit/restrict these botters without too much impact on the normal gamer.

    Try look at it this way, its basically how the situation is:
    You, a normal gamer, have a limited time to play each day, lets say 8hours max. On the other hand, the itemseller have access to bots on multiple accounts that could in teory run 24/7. Lets say he has 10 Accounts running all day, giving him 240 hours/day vs your 8 hours/day. A "flood" situation like this is what we have to avoid somehow.

    (###)Solution idea: What if we could restrict any person to have max 1 player online at any given time on any given account? And on top of that, have a max gaming period (like 12hours/day) per person?

    Let me shortlist the follow-up rules I've thought of, and then explain it further afterwards:
    (This section gets very detailed sorry)

    (###)
    A)It is entirely optional for any player wether or not he wants to join this restricted part of D3 (refered as "Restricted D3" now) which I'm describing. He could in fact, just join a normal realm/ladder like in D2 with no restrictions on accounts or gaming time (refered as "Free D3" now). With all the belonging item flood problems in "Free D3" of course.

    (###)
    B)"Restricted D3": Idealy max 1 account per person/billing id. If multiple accounts for one person must be allowed, it should be done so all these accounts(with a belonging billing id) points to this same person. This way, we're trying to disqualify 1 person from entering the same world(Think: D2 ladder) via multiple accounts(possible if there were no billing id requirement) and thus appear with multiple characters. Even if there's a way to get around this restriction too easy, then there's still some good options left in my method/system.

    (###)
    C)"Restricted D3": There will be a global max playing time on (say) 12 hours/day for any given person who have joined "Restricted D3". You are of course allowed to create as many characters on your account(s) as you want, although the total playing time for all characters belonging to 1 person cannot exceed 12hours/day.

    (###)
    D)"Restricted D3": On character create, you select the world(Think: D2 ladder) you want to start your character(lvl1) in. This character can only play (and thus trade) with others from same world. It cannot be moved to other worlds or in any way interact with characters from other worlds. The worlds you can choose between is determined by the max allowed hours of gaming hours per day "locally"*** in that world (Think: What fits best your average gaming time spend per day? Max 4hours or 8hours per day pherhaps?). Let's for example take USEast Softcore section, these 3 worlds are made available by Blizzard for you to choose among:
    Max4Hours/Day, Max8Hours/Day and Max12Hours/Day.
    Picture yourself all those gamers with limited playing time, who can finally play Diablo with other relatively equally set/minded gamers in the Max4Hours World, without getting beated up by a 13yo kid that can play 15hours/day - or a group of persons who used account sharing to play the character for many many hours/day.
    By "locally"*** I mean: If you've joined the Max4Hours/Day world, and played all the 4 hours locally allowed in that world, you still have 8hours of global playing time to spend like you want, maybe in a USEast Hardcore Max8Hours/Day world.

    E)"Restricted D3": Furthermore, on character create, you are also given the option to join(by invitation only) or create a Guild world. Characters in this guild will have the same limitations as described so far: they can only play with members from the same guild. So you could go into D3 with a group of friends, maybe even a guild from another game like WoW, and create a safe world where you're pretty much assured that no massively botted items will occur.

    This system would benefit everybody? If you dont want to part of "Restricted D3", you can ignore it, and play together with many similar gamers who doesnt have big concerns about botted items and unequal gaming time spend. If you care, you will get to choose from worlds/ladders which would have much less botted items. Of course, everything will be balanced by Blizzard, and lesser modifications will be made.

    For instance you could imagine a factor 1,5 on gaming time for weekend play (friday-sunday) for Max4Hours and Max8Hours worlds, making them 6 and 12 hours limited during weekends.

    EDIT: I think there's still an important reducing factor in this MaxHours restricted system, even if the multiple accounts restriction of max 12hours/day didnt exist or is tricked somehow. These numbers are completely random, they're just used to show the mechanics:

    For every 100050 players, so we have 50 Botters vs 100000 NormalGamers. Lets say the 50Botters uses 10 accounts each in their botting network. The world is a Max4Hours/day setting. Then we would have:

    Restricted 4hours: 50bottersx10accountsx4hours/day=2000GameHours vs 100000gamersx4hours/day=400000GameHours

    Lets picture the situation if there were no restriction, and the botters could run 24/7. Mind, that the gamerbase will still be playing roughly 4hours/day, because that's actually what they are actually roughly playing, they didnt lie when they choose a Max4Hours/day world. These people actually play around 4hours/day.

    No limit: 50x10x24=12000 vs 100000x4=400000

    So the outcome is: For a Max4Hours/day setting, the restriction will factor down the total amount of botted items by roughly 6 (2000 vs 12000). 6 times less botted items, even with botters having multiple accounts. Or am I wrong?

    (###)Conclusion: It would really be a big step if this 1Person=1BillingID=ThisPersonsAccounts=Max12hours/day limitation could be possible. Otherwise there's still 2 good things left: 1) The gaming hours per day are limited, which will slow the botted item flood speed. 2) You can always just react and join/form a guild.

    In the end I just hope the players will be given more opportunities and chances to react on botters/dupers in D3. D2 really suffered from that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  2. SlechtWeerBeer

    SlechtWeerBeer IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    I think this might sever the community (whatever there will be left of it) in way too many little bits. Well, either that or "Restricted D3" is empty o-o

    Just my thought on it, tho.
     
  3. Nimbostratus

    Nimbostratus IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    I really like that setup for limiting bots. Though one of the big things they should do to limit duping and botting is to GREATLY reduce the gap between an "average" (single pass, untwinked) player and one with the best gear. To put things in perspective, let's say the average endgame weapon for an untwinked barbarian is a rare with 250% ED, 40% IAS, and 8% life steal, with some misc stuff on top of it. Now let's look at BOTD, which isn't even considered that great anymore: 400% ED, 60% IAS, 15% life steal, +30 all stats, can be ethereal without breaking, etc.

    The average gear doesn't come anywhere even close to stuff like this, which is why the demand for high end gear is so huge (and thus so is the demand for duping and botting). Just shrink the gap already; if the best is only ~20% stronger overall than the average, that's great- It's still a very noticeable difference, but it doesn't make the guy with the best gear an automatic god. Even if it doesn't end up decreasing the demand for dupes and bots, it will at the very least serve to mitigate their effects.
     
  4. Approon

    Approon IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Restricting playing time seems very wrong to me, because i think playing time varies greatly from day to day. Being beaten by a 13yo kid, so what? Big deal? No, just change game or play private games.

    About the botting problem, like many webpages they have special forms that you need to fill in thats very hard for bots todo. Similar stuff could be made in the game, like small tasks thats easy for a human player but very very hard for bots. These could then be played before entering important caves, bosses etc..
     
  5. GardensAngel

    GardensAngel IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Yea that must not happen. But there'll be an absolutely huge amount of gamers playing D3 + Blizzard can analyze their way to a perfect number of worlds setup so it wont likely happen.


     
  6. GardensAngel

    GardensAngel IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    I agree, shifting playing time doenst fit super well with restricted playing times. This could be helped out by something like the 1,5 weekend factor I mentioned or a weekly playing time instead of daily pherhaps? All in all it comes down to 2 things: 1) You just have to make up with yourself how many hours you're roughly going to play. 2) The motivation is to limit the botters access to ruin your game. If it doesnt matter one could just join "Free D3" and be happy about it.

    I believe so many gamers with limited gaming time available would be very pleased if they could join a world like the Max4Hours/day I described. Thrilled to experience they can play against others in same situation, and not getting steamrolled so easy. People care about the game they are playing. Change game? Hell no. Try say that to them. This is not Tomb Raider 74 or NHL 2000-and-whatever. This is Diablo. King of Games.

    This is actually a most brilliant idea?! Imagine this implemented cleverly by Blizzard, the interface would be fine and D3 style. It wont take more than 5 secs to complete on average. It will pop op maybe every 5 or whatever times you visit a "VIP farm point" like a cave or Boss area like Approon suggest. Again, it could be optional, pherhaps something the "Free 3D"'ers dont have to care about. On the other hand you'll have me thinking "Great, a small feature that will add to the diminish of botted items? How do I get involved in that? Which world must I join to get that bot restriction?"


     
  7. Raging_Zealot

    Raging_Zealot Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    I think instituting some task that has to be performed upon game creation/joining that is very easy for a human but difficult for a bot might be a good solution, but of course they have to balance it such that a bot is unable to perform it yet a human doesn't find it super annoying. May or may not be an easy thing. Since they are presumably trying to have less "farm area" type playstyle, the amount of times you join a new game in Diablo III might be less enough that you wouldn't mind something that took a few seconds. I know in Diablo II, if I got kicked out of a game, and had the "failed to join game" sequence come up, it was always annoying to me to have to wait several seconds while it failed to join (after it was obvious it would fail), then displayed the error, before finally putting me back in the lobby again, even though it was only a few seconds, it could add up and be annoying if there was lots of game switching going on. Something that w/ Baal runs and MF runs happened a lot, but in DIII might be lessened some what. Another thing about the failed to join message for me was also the helplessness that you had to just sit and wait, at least with a task to perform to prove you weren't a bot, you'd be doing something so it wouldn't be like a "twiddle thumbs while I wait for the severs to catch up to me" situation.

    Like someone else said, I don't really like the limiting play-time suggestion based on principle, but that's just me. Personally if the limit was like 12 hrs a day or something, I know I would never hit it, but the idea that it is limited just doesn't quite sit well with me, YMMV.

    With regards to the "anti-bot tasks" popping up in game at "VIP farm points" like you suggest, GardensAngel, I don't think it fits in with what they want to do with Diablo III for a few reasons. First off, it seems that having something pop up in game would be more intrusive and kind of "break the moment", and they have stressed a lot of how they don't want to stop the action for very long, even to the point of changing some of the in game character talking sequences originally seen in the first announcement video. I think some task to complete would be less intrusive if it was still in a lobby type interface, since you haven't begun the questing yet. The other reason I don't think it would fit in well, is that I believe they are trying to minimize such "areas" that get farmed. They want you to be more motivated to play through the game then farm an area or a boss, so likely exp and item drops will be adjusted accordingly. How successfully they will be able to accomplish this, I do not know, but having something periodically pop up when you visit a "farming point" would be admitting that said farming point exists, and to me at least, it seems like one of their primary goals for Diablo III is not to have farming points.

    I don't mean to be singling you out specifically, just my thoughts on what you've suggested, which are definitely good ideas though, since something obviously has to be done regarding bot-ing.

    Wow this post got tons bigger than I originally intended, bonus points for actually reading it!
     
  8. phaolo

    phaolo IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Always thought that, so I completely agree.
    Limiting hours per day is good for health-social relations too lol. Ok one can play other games, but after you have received a warning notice about being close to 12 hours playing you'd understand you need to rest or do other things XD

    That system, together with some of the restrictions, would limit a lot bots or teams that evolve the same single characters. The result is a better game experience for all and more free servers.

    If they can program bots that wander around in random maps, fight and collect gold staying alive, they'll surely overcome silly and annoying captchas lol
     
  9. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Totally agree that something like this needs to be integrated into Diablo3, for many players who want to enjoy their play time hack-free without any disturbances or annoyances.

    Still i find it hard to imagine what kind of healthy normal human being would play a single game ( i.e D3 ) more than 12hrs per day ( unless they are bots or losers at life ).

    They would still have "Free Diablo 3" and they can play for 48hrs a day if they wish ( sarcasm ).

    Not beaten by kids, but annoyed and frustrated by hacks, dupes and cheaters ... and i'm not supposed to be forced into private games .. i'm not the one who is doing something wrong or illegitimate here .. the game must cater for legit fair players not force them to play private games to avoid hacks and cheats ... that doesn't make any sense.

    That could work, but still a hack-free realm as a whole is much better.


     
  10. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    It is going to be annoying no matter how you do it. Same as with the limited playing time.

    P.S. Look at it this way, if things were that easy, they would have already implemented in many games and you can be sure that blizzard is more then smart enough to come up with solution that easy. The reason why they don't is because it's not to good as it may seems.
    So if you want to help out, you need to come up with more complicated system, we don't want diablo III to turn out like windows vista now do we.

    Can you imagine, getting a popup when taking up an item that was dropped somewhere in town warning you about the possibility that it may or may not be duped.
    Or alerts when you use up to much gold to alert you that you may run out of gold preventing you from repairing your armour next time you visit town.
    Or even asking permission for each game you open as you never know what virus might be opening games for you.



     
  11. Zarniwoop

    Zarniwoop IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    As a coder let me say that any solution that is not relatively simple won't happen.
     
  12. ThulRasha

    ThulRasha Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Major flaw with 1Person=1BillingID=ThisPersonsAccounts=Max12hours/day is that families will bill twice, or even up to four times for different persons within their family, using the same BillingID. (E.G. father likes to play and his son likes to play. Farther buys and pays bills for both copies, this is a very common situation).

    Another flaw that is less common is that someone can get around this by using different payment methods.

    Lastly, judging how this goes in WoW, Blizzard doesn't support the idea that 1Person=1BillingID=ThisPersonsAccounts. It looks like Blizzard thinks that as long as someone pays for multiple accounts, there should be no extra restrictions compared to people who only have 1 account.

    But how? What opportunity or chance should a player have? Must be something that can't be abused.


     
  13. Akse

    Akse Banned

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Solution against BOT's is simple.. The item system and drop system needs to be different. Something like before LOD, rares were the number 1 stuff they dropped just about everywhere, it wasn't really beneficial to run super unique bosses, act bosses for items, people just picked an area and went on clearing the area or just leveled up their characters in Act4.

    I'm not sure but I believe it should be harder to make a bot just for clearing out all areas or at least if you made one it would still be very random to get those items and everyone would pretty much have similar chances to get good items, botters would probably get a few more hours but those who play in full games would get more drops. Anyways at least in pre-LOD the game was a bit harder and a BOT wouldn't probably survive handling a whole act because there is no merc to tank and monsters come at you all over.. you can't just spam some skill to kill all because the skills wasn't that powerful like nowadays hammers or blizzard and you would run out of mana by doing so etc etc.

    Edit. Oh and as it will be in D3 that we have limited amount of potions, probably also on cooldown.. we have to pick up those globes.. we have multiple skills that we need to use in order to beat down the more intelligent enemies, it will probably be a lot harder to make a BOT that knows what to do at each situation. We need to stun the monsters we need to do all kinds of tricks this time.. not just stand still and throw hammers and drink potions if we take hit like it is now in D2.

    About dupes.. I suppose they have some sort of system already to deal with item duplications in WoW.. if they have learnt anything about online gaming from WoW this shouldn't be a problem in D3 either. Our clients will probably deal with very minimal amount of data and the server handles the rest so it will be a lot more difficult to put in some kind of cheats because they would have no affect on the game.
     
  14. GardensAngel

    GardensAngel IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots



    Yea I have to agree on 1Person=1BillingID=ThisPersonsAccounts=Max12hours/day is very strict, and Blizzard will probably not implement it sadly.

    I dont think using family members billing id will be a big factor though, but if 1 person can get around the system by using different payment methods we will se a great impact.

    However, I think there's still an important reducing factor in this MaxHours restricted system, even if the multiple accounts restriction of max 12hours/day didnt exist or is tricked somehow. These numbers are completely random, they're just used to show the mechanics:

    For every 100050 players, so we have 50 Botters vs 100000 NormalGamers. Lets say the 50Botters uses 10 accounts each in their botting network. The world is a Max4Hours/day setting. Then we would have:

    Restricted 4hours: 50bottersx10accountsx4hours/day=2000GameHours vs 100000gamersx4hours/day=400000GameHours

    Lets picture the situation if there were no restriction, and the botters could run 24/7. Mind, that the gamerbase will still be playing roughly 4hours/day, because that's actually what they are actually roughly playing, they didnt lie when they choose a Max4Hours/day world. These people actually play around 4hours/day.

    No limit: 50x10x24=12000 vs 100000x4=400000

    So the outcome is: For a Max4Hours/day setting, the restriction will factor down the total amount of botted items by roughly 6 (2000 vs 12000). 6 times less botted items, even with botters having multiple accounts.

    Yea it has to be done carefully, but I'm sure Blizzard would think of something clever. The opportunity to react is given to the player by implementing something like this very system:

    -Join a restricted world if you care to have less botted items.
    -Make sure the world you're joining is also having the "special forms" Approon was suggesting.
    -There will probably be more restriction available, people are creative.
    -Possible to form a private ladder/world (guild) with your choice of restriction set.
    -Its entirely up to the player to decide if he cares about botted items, he can easily choose not to, and just join the huge "FreeD3" world.


     
  15. ThulRasha

    ThulRasha Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    I think the problem here is that people will want the good sides of both.
    They don't want to many restrictions and will still want to have a bot and dupe free world.

    Restrictions also already exist in Diablo2. You can choose to only play with your friends (read: guild) by only creating passworded games.
    Yet this doesn't seem to be a viable solution for botting and duping in D2. So why would it work in D3?
     
  16. phaolo

    phaolo IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Nice calculations hehe

    Anyway with only 12h restriction and 2 accounts average per cheater (how much do they spend lol) the result is 10 times lower than the unlimited option. Still very good :D

    I like a lot the 1 account per person policy instead. Maybe Blizzard could create family options\discounts lol

    How do you stop spambot instead? Maybe with a "block\allowonly messages from playername1,2,N" option? (plus the private games)
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  17. Jack Carael

    Jack Carael IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    So you would now have to choose between:
    -Realm
    -World
    -Ladder/Nonladder
    -Softcore/Hardcore

    Let's rule out Realm for this one, because it's pretty much a no-brainer for most people (unless this is different in the US, which I could imagine).
    With 3 Worlds, as you described, there would be 3x2x2=12 different permutations.
    For modes like Hardcore, which are pretty much dead already, this would be the deathblow.

    Note: I haven't followed any news on D3, so I don't know if Ladder/'Core is even an option in D3.. Just my 2 cents, though.
     
  18. stillman

    stillman IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    No one is really antisocial or a looser for playing Diablo all day. It is a hobby. Are gardeners 'loosers' if they spend all day working on their gardens?

    And, are alcoholics on the right track then becasue they are so social and spend all their days in pubs getting drunk with their buddies?

    Social life and having 310 friends, texting people all day, blabbing on a cell phone constantly, eating out and spending money and shoping at the mall each weekend, etc, are not ideal values for everyone. Some people like to play Diablo instead. It's really a preferance and social life preferences don't make a person better than someone who plays computer games all day.

    Anyway, I think there shouild be no 12 hour limit per day or w/e. I like the idea where you can only work with one account at a time though. Ideally, someone would have to have 2 seperate internet service provider accounts which runs them $60 a month Canadian for each one, so that's
    $120 per month just to run 2 accounts at the same time, one chr being used on each account. It would be nice if Blizzard could check that sort of thing (link your account to your internet service provider account, and limit us in that regard).

    Another idea: Idk if this would work, but what if Blizzard sold items/gold or w/e to palyers, but limited the amount they sell to each account so players with more money to spend don't have too much of an advantage over those who never buy gold/items. To use d2 as a reference, Blizzard could sell let's say 1 hr to any player but only once a month. Or, limit their sales to mid runes and sets that don't include end game OP'd stuff. Then, Blizzard can say they are making money from their product, and maybe they can use this as a reason to sue anyone else who sells gold/items.

    Blizzard's got to bring the real life hammer down.
     
  19. GardensAngel

    GardensAngel IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    The worlds setup would be cleverly put up by Blizzard, they could probably easy analyze a bit from their D2 data, and maybe end up with only 1 or 2 worlds for Hardcore.


     
  20. Zarniwoop

    Zarniwoop IncGamers Member

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    Re: System to avoid dupes & bots

    Here's the problem.

    1. You cannot limit players and their ability to play as long as they want.

    2. Fixing the dupe issue is tough because of latency. Especially if different processes are running in parallel. You simply cannot always guarantee that something won't be too late or too early and the dupers will find that circumstance and work to create it.

    3. I have thought about this, and there's no easy solution. Obviously, as blizzard has thought about it and not stopped it. You could disallow trading if the game latency goes over some amount. You could put all traded items into a bin with a key of who they belonged to, and if the player drops just after a trade and the other party drops also during intense lag and a thread hasn't caught up, it calls a check on any items in the bin. Even if it's lagging, it knows if a trade happened when a process was late and it cannot account for the items. All items involved in that trade are returned to their original owners and that's too bad.

    There's a lot of timing issues there, but regardless it's still too simplistic.

    That's a hugely hairy problem.
     

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