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Synergy Question : Blizzard Sorceress

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by Dark-Nova, Mar 30, 2004.

  1. Dark-Nova

    Dark-Nova IncGamers Member

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    Synergy Question : Blizzard Sorceress

    When you say that does that mean I should have maxed CM before Ice Bolt?
    Or do you mean that I should put 10 in CM and 10 in Ice Bolt and max ice bolt on....

    I am just asking after I max all of the others skills...

    When exactly should I start putting points into CM - and exactly how many?
     
  2. Tron

    Tron IncGamers Member

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    10 Ice Blast
    20 Blizzard
    20 Glacial Spike
    20 CM
    1 Ice Bolt

    +9 to skills total
    And I put 1 point in energy shield, static, and prerequisits. I would put the 20 into Cold Mastery before the synergies. I did this because the synergies didn't give it too much of a bump, which I figure I can just put in more at later levels/after I do skill quests. But 20 in CM is a must, lowering the enemy's resitance I think is better than a +5% bonus per level each synergy.
     
  3. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    yes max cm first.
     
  4. decoy_sJ

    decoy_sJ IncGamers Member

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    but isn't the -res of CM capped at lvl 17 after which it affects only monsters with innate higher resists to cold like certain superuniques? if so y do we need to max CM? i am confused.. :scratch:

    and if we are taking into account plus 9 ( issit +9?) and CM can only lower the resistance SO much..y not max the synergies after hitting level 17 with CM and let the + skills raise the level of CM and at the same time increasing the damage?
     
  5. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    you can take monsters up to -100, so the most you can possibly use is -199. max cm is -130, which will take say a cold enchanted mob to -55, meph to -30, etc.
     
  6. [FLS]prozerran

    [FLS]prozerran IncGamers Member

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    I would put my skill points in the following order:
    max blizzard with 1 pt in CM at clvl 30
    max blast
    max CM
    max ice bolt
    If you still have more points to spare, max GS.

    You should remember that although synergies give 5% increase of blizzard damage, it improves only 5% off the BASE damage of blizzard; while CM improves 5% (up to -100% monster resist) off the final damage of blizzard (including synergy bonus). So the first synergy is essentially the same as CM until monster resists goes below -100%, and it's better than maxing CM first because firstly, it's useful for non-resistant monsters, and secondly you have a secondary non-timered spell to compliment your timered blizzard.

    An example:
    slvl 20 blizzard, 1 ice blast, 20 CM. Say base blizzard damage is X.
    vs 0% monsters, damage = 1.05*X*(1-(0-100%)) = 2.1X
    vs 20% monsters, damage = 1.05*X*(1-(20%-115%)) = 2.0475X
    vs 75% monsters, damage = 1.05*X*(1-(75%-115%)) = 1.47X

    slvl 20 blizzard, 20 ice blast, 1 CM.
    vs 0% monsters, damage = 2*X*(1-(0-20%)) = 2.4X
    vs 20% monsters, damage = 2*X*(1-(20%-20%)) = 2X
    vs 75% monsters, damage = 2*X*(1-(75%-20%)) = 0.9X

    So as you can see, high CM low iceblast helps for resistant monsters. However, most regular monsters have 0 to 20% cold resist, and as you can see from the above calculation, option 2 does almost the same damage as option 1 for 20% cold resist monsters, while doing nearly 15% as much damage for 0% cold resist ones. So it is optimal to max iceblast first.

    However after maxing the first synergy, the second synergy (which is also 5%) works only half as well as the first synergy (each point adds only 2.5% to the final damage). You can easily repeat the above calculation and find that maxing CM before 2nd synergy is more helpful on average.

    Finally, I picked the synergy order as iceblast-->icebolt-->GS because the most non-timered damaging spell is ice blast, and icebolt gives a damage synergy to ice blast while GS only gives freeze length, which is not too useful because ice blast only works on one monster. However, if you want to go for the safty route (HCL with non-optimal equipment for example), change the order to GS-->iceblast-->icebolt because GS could be a life safer sometimes with it's freezing power. It's also very handy against tightly packed archers since it gives you time to hit them with blizzard while they cannot attack you because they are frozen. Against boss GS is useless because it can only chill them (if they can be chilled at all) but you can do the same with iceblast, and iceblast is a lot more damaging (and less mana intensive) than GS.
     
  7. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    I'd go along with [FLS]prozerran's advice. See his calculations, they just lay it out. First 1 synergy then CM.

    The reason why its mentioned to max CM probably first is for Mephrunning, since in that case you will benefit from CM alot more, since Meph is highly cold resistant in Hell. Blizzard Sorcs are about the fastest Mephrunners you can get.
    Since you wont be in Hell until you have maxed Blizz, 1 synergy and mastery you can max 1 synergy first and then CM to achieve maximum effect.
     
  8. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    there is one error (not in calcs) in the logic of this. it only takes into account raw damage. in a raw damage calculation, all monsters must have the same resist, which is 0 (otherwise the non-cm skill will not do the full damage.)

    the greatness of cm is relative damage, in that if you compare the actual damage before and after the monster's resist, CM always wins if the monster's resist is greater than 0%. in you example above, the 20 cm model still beats the 20 synergy model by 5%, which is probably the smallest difference possible before synergies' damage addition overtakes CM as the monsters res goes lower and lower (which you also proved in the calcs where monster resist is 0%.)

    At 0% and lower, raw damage has the chance to increase at a faster rate than CM can subtract resists.

    so, rather than comparing synergy vs cm, you have to compare damage before cm and after cm. the net gain is always greater because the actual relative damage is so small.

    here's the example i always use:
    if *insert cold skill* does 100 damage, then at at 50% resist, it does 50 damage. if cm is -100%, then it does 150 damage, so the real gain is 300%. the listed damage is irrelevant.

    so, your data doesn't give a clear picture of why cm is probably the best sorc skill, and cold the strongest tree.

    in the above example i gave, a different skill would have to do 3X as much damage as the relevant cold skill. I figure that only the strongest non-cold spell compared to the weakest cold spell would win.

    even more interesting is when resist is at 75%. if mastery is at -100%, any cold damage jumps 500%!

    if mastery is at 175%, damage jumps by an 800%!
     
  9. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    In general you can say that when you have the choice to apply -xx% resistance gear compared to gear that gives more damage you should choose the -xx% resistance gear since the damage output will just be so much better.
    Just thinking of the way Tal's set can easily compensate any damage from other high +skills gear.
    Or the use of perfect Facets aswell.
    Even just -15% res or -20% are a tremendous improvement!
     
  10. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    yep, here's a quick table:

    monster res -0%___-25%___-50%___-75%
    -resist:
    -0%______100%___ 75%____50%_____25%

    -25%_____+25%___+33%___+50%__+100%

    -50%_____+50%___+66%__+100%__+200%

    -75%_____+75%__+100%__+150%__+300%

    -100%___+100%__+133%__+200%__+400%

    what this chart says is that at a certain level of -resists, you will gain this much over the damage actually done to the monster if you didn't.

    for example, at -100% for a 75% cold resist monster, you would do 25% of your listed damage. the -100% cm makes it 125%, so you are actually doing (125%-25%)/25%=400% additional damage, or 500% of the original.
     
  11. Dark-Nova

    Dark-Nova IncGamers Member

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    Alright - So this is what I should do in order...

    Max Blizzard (put 1 point in CM)
    Max Spike
    Max CM
    Max Blast
    Max Bolt

    Is that right?
     
  12. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    Yes, but possible not because of the damage, since if you either max 1 synergy first and CM or vice versa, the damage output will be about the same with your basic 0% resists monster.
    But from a lvling point of view you will do more damage if you go the route you just wrote down...
    Since you can spare points you can dump 1 for sure for every lvl into glacial spike and when you get Blizzard you can put points into both GS and Blizzard simultanously. This will give you the max damage at each lvl.
    As long as you have spare points i would put into GS/Blizz both and when they run out you go all for Blizz, then GS, then CM..... and so on...
     
  13. [FLS]prozerran

    [FLS]prozerran IncGamers Member

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    If you follow the calculation closely you can see that the raw damage is "X". The calculation gives the final damage AFTER considering monster resist. I picked 0%, 20% and 75% because those are the most common monster resist.

    [/QUOTE]
    CM has a bigger effect to first synergy only if monster has positive resistance. However there are quite few monsters in nightmare that has cold resist, and for those regular monsters that do (eg. cold enchanted pack), it's usually 20%. But you can see from the calculation, against 20% resistant monsters, both plans (CM first or synergy #1 first) do about the same final damage, while against 0% resistant monsters, #1 synergy first do subsquentially higher damage (roughly 15% higher).
     

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