Swiss Banking

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

Sure, you can negotiate and talk. Nothing wrong with that.

And that's what they have done, and come to an agreement too

Now, we can go at it all day with regards to whether the taxes are right or not, but I'd rather not. If a US citizen evades taxes and gets caught, he should pay the price under US law, plain and simple. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he's doing the shoplifting by evading taxes to begin with.

I wasn't trying to draw a comparison between shoplifting and tax evasion, I was pointing out that your 'make the tax policy more competitive' suggestion is a seriously flawed analogy when applied to people/companies who evade tax. It is accurate when applied to people/companies that leave the US and base themselves elsewhere, but not to people/companies who stay in the US while evading US taxes.

And as you're talking about competition then businesses are a relevant analogy, with customers who leave to shop elsewhere being the ones who you attract by making your product more competitive. The ones who are already frequenting your store but not paying are analogous to people who stay in the US without paying taxes.

As an aside- if the government is the "Vendor", the goods and services provided to US citizens is the "Product" and taxes that the government decide that each person should pay to use that "Product" are the "Price" - then what would you say would be a fair label for people who take the "Product" from the "Vendor" without paying?

Switzerland's policies, however, make it more attractive to people trying to stash or move money. They are more competitive, plain and simple.

This is another serious flaw in the 'competition' argument when applying it to people who evade tax - you are comparing two very different things. You are comparing living in a country, laws regarding running your business, access to customers and government services provided in exchange for the tax you pay with a money storage arrangement.

I don't think the US government would have any issue with people choosing to store their money in Switzerland rather than in the US as long as they pay the taxes due on it first.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Swiss Banking

You mean the people that are forced into paying for a product they did not order but are supplied with regardless and sent a bill for that is many times the value of ?

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

You mean the people that are forced into paying for a product they did not order but are supplied with regardless and sent a bill for that is many times the value of ?

No analogy is perfect however I do stand by my position that people who stay in the US, work in the US or have companies that benefit from being located in the US are not even remotely analogous to people who choose a competitors product.

I also note that for many people, particularly the ones who do pay more in taxes than they get in return, there is the option of leaving the country to live elsewhere if they don't want to pay the asking price for the product offered. As all my friends and coworkers living here in the UAE have done.

 

[Johnny]

Re: Swiss Banking

I never said Switzerland doesn't have taxes. Switzerland's policies, however, make it more attractive to people trying to stash or move money. They are more competitive, plain and simple. It's not like people just decided to put their money there (as opposed to banks in other countries) because the coin they flipped happened to land on Switzerland.

Right. It's like if Canada made it legal to bring cars over without questions asked and you could re-register them as your own Canadian car then bring them back into the US and sell them. All of a sudden people are stealing cars all over the US and taking them to Canada then bringing them back to sell them but hell. That's the US governments fault for not being able to compete right?

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

And that's what they have done, and come to an agreement too

But I've never had an objection to that, so this was an irrelevant point.

I wasn't trying to draw a comparison between shoplifting and tax evasion, I was pointing out that your 'make the tax policy more competitive' suggestion is a seriously flawed analogy when applied to people/companies who evade tax. It is accurate when applied to people/companies that leave the US and base themselves elsewhere, but not to people/companies who stay in the US while evading US taxes.

Compared to what? Government being a Vendor, except this vendor gets to "provide" services you don't want and gets to charge you for them (services you might not even get to use, by the way)?

And as you're talking about competition then businesses are a relevant analogy, with customers who leave to shop elsewhere being the ones who you attract by making your product more competitive. The ones who are already frequenting your store but not paying are analogous to people who stay in the US without paying taxes.

The world is a market. Excluding the rest of the world from that and saying, "well, it's not competition if you buy a product from another country" is tacky, at best. If you're shopping for goods or services, it would behoove you to consider products in other countries. They might be better and cheaper, who knows.

As an aside- if the government is the "Vendor", the goods and services provided to US citizens is the "Product" and taxes that the government decide that each person should pay to use that "Product" are the "Price" - then what would you say would be a fair label for people who take the "Product" from the "Vendor" without paying?

I already demonstrated the deep flaw of this analogy briefly, so I'll go on in a little more detail. When considering government, you aren't just talking about me. MANY people are forced to pay for services they didn't want, don't get, and/or don't receive for a variety of reasons. If normal vendors could force you to pay for a product they don't give you (especially if you don't even want the "product"), your analogy would be much better. But that's obviously not the case.

And it applies to millions of people, too. I'm not the only one who doesn't benefit from a large number of programs the government has, and in fact, as far as I'm concerned, I'm hurt by a lot of them. And yet, I still have to pay taxes for these programs that I don't even want. There's no opt out option, so I can't say, "I will exempt myself from collecting social security if you cut my social security tax." No, it doesn't work that way. I have to pay for it no matter what. Conversely, some people benefit drastically and receive far more than they pay in- on everyone else's dime.

So, while my analogy isn't perfect, it is compensated for by these facts. If you feel like you're being ripped off in one way (since you're being forced to pay extra in exchange for nothing, and you might even be HURT by this policy), and you try to KEEP the money you earned in a foreign bank, I don't think there's a problem with that from an analagous standpoint. The small flaw in my analogy is compensated for by this fact. If you get caught, you get caught and pay the price under US law. If you don't, well, good for you.

This is another serious flaw in the 'competition' argument when applying it to people who evade tax - you are comparing two very different things. You are comparing living in a country, laws regarding running your business, access to customers and government services provided in exchange for the tax you pay with a money storage arrangement.

Ha. How much of our money goes to enforcing contracts and the like? Almost nothing. The vast majority of our money is tied up in social welfare and overseas spending, neither of which I agreed to, and neither of which I want. Both of which, as far as I'm concerned, harm me. Yet, I'm still paying for it.

I don't think the US government would have any issue with people choosing to store their money in Switzerland rather than in the US as long as they pay the taxes due on it first.

Of course it wouldn't. It wouldn't have any issue with something that expands its own wealth and power. It will, on the other hand, have issues if you try to detract from that.

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

Right. It's like if Canada made it legal to bring cars over without questions asked and you could re-register them as your own Canadian car then bring them back into the US and sell them. All of a sudden people are stealing cars all over the US and taking them to Canada then bringing them back to sell them but hell. That's the US governments fault for not being able to compete right?

Well, it's whoever is stealing the cars that is responsible for doing so and selling them. But the US government policy would be partially responsible, yes. Just like the US War on Drugs is partly responsible for the violence in both Mexico and the United States.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

The world is a market. Excluding the rest of the world from that and saying, "well, it's not competition if you buy a product from another country" is tacky, at best. If you're shopping for goods or services, it would behoove you to consider products in other countries. They might be better and cheaper, who knows.

Except this is not even remotely what people who evade taxes are doing. They are trying to get their goods and services from the same place and have no intention of taking their 'business' elsewhere but they don't think the asking price is competitive so try to get out of paying the full price.

I already demonstrated the deep flaw of this analogy briefly, so I'll go on in a little more detail. When considering government, you aren't just talking about me. MANY people are forced to pay for services they didn't want, don't get, and/or don't receive for a variety of reasons. If normal vendors could force you to pay for a product they don't give you (especially if you don't even want the "product"), your analogy would be much better. But that's obviously not the case.

Ok - lets try two different analogies:

A town builds a mall called "Mall A" for the towns businesses to operate out of, everyone in the town gets together and invests in the production of it and agrees that every few years they will meet to vote on how much rent to charge the shops who choose to locate themselves in the mall. There are a number of services that come with the rent - cleaning, maintenance, security, heating, your name on the mall poster, advertising in the mall publication. Your rent goes to cover all these and you don't get to deduct the ones you don't want to pay for. Now say you object to the rent charged and decide to set up your business in a different mall down the road, or in the next town along - that is analogous to competition - the other mall is offering a product that you feel is more competitive and so you are choosing them over "Mall A". People who stay in the US, have their business in the US and access to US customers are not analogous to businesses who take their store to a different mall, they are analogous to a store owner who refuses to pay their full rent.

Or a different example - College. Your tuition fees might very well be spent on things you do not agree with, and one college might want to charge you too much - and many colleges offer fees based on your ability to pay. This affects the college choice of many people. Take "College A" - a student wants to go there but can't afford the fees/thinks the college does not offer value compared to "College B", so they choose "College B". That is competition. Tax evasion is more analogous to the Student choosing to go to "College A" but refusing to pay the fees required.

There's no opt out option, so I can't say, "I will exempt myself from collecting social security if you cut my social security tax." No, it doesn't work that way. I have to pay for it no matter what.

No you don't - leave the country and work elsewhere if the tax system is so appalling to you.

If you feel like you're being ripped off in one way (since you're being forced to pay extra in exchange for nothing, and you might even be HURT by this policy), and you try to KEEP the money you earned in a foreign bank

Which is illegal...

I don't think there's a problem with that from an analagous standpoint.

Except that you're not comparing the Swiss Tax System to the American Tax System, you're comparing the Swiss Banking System to the American Tax System. Making the American Tax more competitive won't help in a comparison with a banking system. The tax evaders are not going elsewhere (which would make the analogy valid), they are staying where they are - just not paying tax.

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

Except this is not even remotely what people who evade taxes are doing. They are trying to get their goods and services from the same place and have no intention of taking their 'business' elsewhere but they don't think the asking price is competitive so try to get out of paying the full price.

If they are getting the goods and services they want in the first place. Morally, why should I pay for a good and service I didn’t want, don’t want, and don’t use? It’d be one thing if everyone evading taxes were milking every government service they could sneak in, but that’s not the case.

And asking price? Are you kidding me?

Ok - lets try two different analogies:

A town builds a mall called "Mall A" for the towns businesses to operate out of, everyone in the town gets together and invests in the production of it and agrees that every few years they will meet to vote on how much rent to charge the shops who choose to locate themselves in the mall. There are a number of services that come with the rent - cleaning, maintenance, security, heating, your name on the mall poster, advertising in the mall publication. Your rent goes to cover all these and you don't get to deduct the ones you don't want to pay for. Now say you object to the rent charged and decide to set up your business in a different mall down the road, or in the next town along - that is analogous to competition - the other mall is offering a product that you feel is more competitive and so you are choosing them over "Mall A". People who stay in the US, have their business in the US and access to US customers are not analogous to businesses who take their store to a different mall, they are analogous to a store owner who refuses to pay their full rent.

Except that I only get to vote for 3 out of the 535 representatives who get to make decisions for me on a national level that they aren’t even technically allowed to make under the agreement we made (ie. The Constitution) in the first place. And considering where I live, there’s no way in hell my vote on the people who vote for me is going to make a difference. So again, your analogy is flawed.

Or a different example - College. Your tuition fees might very well be spent on things you do not agree with, and one college might want to charge you too much - and many colleges offer fees based on your ability to pay. This affects the college choice of many people. Take "College A" - a student wants to go there but can't afford the fees/thinks the college does not offer value compared to "College B", so they choose "College B". That is competition. Tax evasion is more analogous to the Student choosing to go to "College A" but refusing to pay the fees required.

This is better, considering that I actually and literally agreed to do so via contract. But remember the issue here. We’re not talking about whether people should be punished by law for violating the law (which they should). We’re talking about my original statement, and I don’t really see where you’re going with your argument. More on that later.

No you don't - leave the country and work elsewhere if the tax system is so appalling to you.

Not that this is the case for me, but for the sake of argument I’ll pretend this is the case. “How am I going to get into another country?” Oh yeah. There’s no free travel, so I can’t just leave and legally enter another country (let alone work there). Obviously the solution is not as simple as your answer implies. I could renounce my citizenship and become an illegal not just in my country, but every country, or, I could live somewhere legally, even if I don’t like it, because being a fugitive in every country I step foot in isn’t a better option.

Since we’re on analogies, we may as well go at it. This case would be analogous to a situation where I am placed in a random store in the mall (ie. I don’t choose where I’m born), and this is the only store I’m legally allowed to shop in. Your suggestion would be, if you don’t like this store, renounce your legality of being in that store and shop at a different store- where you are also violating the law.

Okay.

Which is illegal...

I’m not saying it’s not illegal. In fact I think I pretty clearly said, “If you get caught, you get caught and pay the price under US law.” And remember what the argument is about (next part).

Except that you're not comparing the Swiss Tax System to the American Tax System, you're comparing the Swiss Banking System to the American Tax System. Making the American Tax more competitive won't help in a comparison with a banking system. The tax evaders are not going elsewhere (which would make the analogy valid), they are staying where they are - just not paying tax.

This entire argument is about the statement, “Maybe other countries should be more competitive when it comes to taxes and policy if they're so unhappy about money flowing into Switzerland.”

The reason people want to go through the trouble of hiding money somewhere is because the taxes are, in their eyes, too high. This means that the American Tax System is too expensive for them in their eyes. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, who cares. It might also mean that the ATS is uncompetitive. On the other hand, maybe it’s the lowest rate and the most competitive, but there’s no where else for them to go. Who cares. They think the taxes in the United States are too high for them.

Where are they going to hide the money, then, since they can’t exactly just relocate to the place of their choosing? Switzerland. Why? Because it’s banking policies are the most competitive. So, what is your objection to my statement? The reason why people are trying to hide money from Uncle Sam is because they don’t feel like they should be paying what they are supposed to (and keep in mind, they still end up paying taxes, just not nearly as much). The reason they are hiding it in Switzerland is because it’s banking policy is more competitive, thus, money flows there. If the US doesn’t want its money flowing outboard, its policies need to be more competitive. I’m not comparing US to Swiss taxes. I’m comparing one US policy with a different Swiss policy precisely because one policy is the answer to another, and in this respect, Swiss policy is more competitive. That is, the problem to some is US taxes, and the solution is Swiss banking. If money held in US banks weren't taxable, or the US banking system had similar properties to the Swiss banking system such that people could just as well keep their money in US banks, I'm sure they'd do just that.

Questions?

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

If they are getting the goods and services they want in the first place. Morally, why should I pay for a good and service I didn’t want, don’t want, and don’t use? It’d be one thing if everyone evading taxes were milking every government service they could sneak in, but that’s not the case.

Say I decide to stay in a hotel where a huge range of facilities are provided for my use - spa, restaurants, live music, free expensive aftershave in the bathrooms, a golf course etc etc. I don't often get to say 'well - I don't want any of these things except the room itself so please deduct a fair share from my bill.

We’re talking about my original statement

Which was:
"Maybe other countries should be more competitive when it comes to taxes and policy if they're so unhappy about money flowing into Switzerland."

Which you clarified as meaning that is the US doesn't want people to evade taxes then they should have lower taxes:

"The reason people want to go through the trouble of hiding money somewhere is because the taxes are, in their eyes, too high."

This is analogous to saying "If you're upset about people taking stuff without paying/without paying the asking price then you should lower your price". Which is not 'competition'.

Not that this is the case for me, but for the sake of argument I’ll pretend this is the case. “How am I going to get into another country?†Oh yeah. There’s no free travel, so I can’t just leave and legally enter another country (let alone work there). Obviously the solution is not as simple as your answer implies. I could renounce my citizenship and become an illegal not just in my country, but every country, or, I could live somewhere legally, even if I don’t like it, because being a fugitive in every country I step foot in isn’t a better option.

I have done this, I know (literally) hundreds of people who have left the countries they are from to work elsewhere, and I have met thousands of people who have done the same and am aware that millions of people around the world have done the same thing (legally). Clearly it is not impossible. Further to this - the people who have Swiss bank accounts are not typically scraping to get by, they are often in the most free position to choose their country of residence out of the entire worlds population

Since we’re on analogies, we may as well go at it. This case would be analogous to a situation where I am placed in a random store in the mall (ie. I don’t choose where I’m born), and this is the only store I’m legally allowed to shop in. Your suggestion would be, if you don’t like this store, renounce your legality of being in that store and shop at a different store- where you are also violating the law.

Except you rarely have to renounce your citizenship to live and work in another country... and you do not have to be working illegally to work in a country other than that of your citizenship.

On the other hand, maybe it’s the lowest rate and the most competitive, but there’s no where else for them to go. Who cares. They think the taxes in the United States are too high for them.

Then they should not base their business in the US.

Where are they going to hide the money, then, since they can’t exactly just relocate to the place of their choosing?

As stated previously - I suspect that very few people with Swiss bank accounts face serious barriers to relocation.

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

Say I decide to stay in a hotel where a huge range of facilities are provided for my use - spa, restaurants, live music, free expensive aftershave in the bathrooms, a golf course etc etc. I don't often get to say 'well - I don't want any of these things except the room itself so please deduct a fair share from my bill.

Except again, that's a voluntary arrangement. And if I want to use the spa, I can. On the other hand, not every government program I pay for is available to me, and others actually end up hurting me.

Which was:
"Maybe other countries should be more competitive when it comes to taxes and policy if they're so unhappy about money flowing into Switzerland."

Which you clarified as meaning that is the US doesn't want people to evade taxes then they should have lower taxes:

"The reason people want to go through the trouble of hiding money somewhere is because the taxes are, in their eyes, too high."

Not exclusively. They could, as I suggested, have money placed in US banks be exempt or have some similar arrangement such that it's close, in practice, to a Swiss bank. As I said, I'm sure if this were the case, you wouldn't see so much money funneling into Switzerland. The issue is that people feel they are being taxed too much, and thus, try to avoid paying these taxes.

There's more than one "solution" to that, and it doesn't have to exclusively be lower taxes (although I will say that would be nice).

This is analogous to saying "If you're upset about people taking stuff without paying/without paying the asking price then you should lower your price". Which is not 'competition'.

Again, who is doing the taking here?

I have done this, I know (literally) hundreds of people who have left the countries they are from to work elsewhere, and I have met thousands of people who have done the same and am aware that millions of people around the world have done the same thing (legally). Clearly it is not impossible.

Of course it's not impossible. But did you just walk across the border? And furthermore, how easy and time consuming is it to get a working permit in that country for the rest of your life? Will they even ACCEPT you into the country if you have no nationality and therefore valid passport?

Further to this - the people who have Swiss bank accounts are not typically scraping to get by, they are often in the most free position to choose their country of residence out of the entire worlds population

It depends. It's definitely easier if you have money, but there are other considerations to moving.

Except you rarely have to renounce your citizenship to live and work in another country... and you do not have to be working illegally to work in a country other than that of your citizenship.

Yes, and can you just walk or fly across the border to the country of your choice and work there forever? Or do those work permits expire and require time and money to get?

Then they should not base their business in the US.

Yeah, they're working on that. Takes time to move stuff overseas, PFSS.

As stated previously - I suspect that very few people with Swiss bank accounts face serious barriers to relocation.

Monetary barriers, perhaps.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Swiss Banking

Yes, and can you just walk or fly across the border to the country of your choice and work there forever? Or do those work permits expire and require time and money to get?

Not all countries have work permit systems.

A propos, does the word Schengen mean anything to you?

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

Not all countries have work permit systems.

A propos, does the word Schengen mean anything to you?

Nein. :crazyeyes:

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Swiss Banking

Nein. :crazyeyes:

I assume you just pulled a joke there, and know what I am talking about.

For the rest who might've missed the idea, Wiki.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Swiss Banking

So is it pretty much like state borders in the US now? Where they stop your car and ask if you are carrying any produce?

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Swiss Banking

So is it pretty much like state borders in the US now? Where they stop your car and ask if you are carrying any produce?

They might not even bother for that.

Aeroport borders are a bit stricter, you actually have to dig out an I.D. (no passport necessary, though, although you can use it), but that's because other people use them too. I can just drive over the Swedish border and there's not usually anyone there to stop me and check my car - and if there is, they're not doing it. Other borders might even have the booths anymore. They literally are borderless at places.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Swiss Banking

Yeah thats what I meant really, state boarders over here only check you when they have money in the budget to put a body in the checkpoint

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

Except again, that's a voluntary arrangement. And if I want to use the spa, I can. On the other hand, not every government program I pay for is available to me, and others actually end up hurting me.

The maintenance and operation of the ladies spa does not benefit me in the slightest, yet I don't get to deduct it from my bill. Oh noes!

Not exclusively. They could, as I suggested, have money placed in US banks be exempt or have some similar arrangement such that it's close, in practice, to a Swiss bank. As I said, I'm sure if this were the case, you wouldn't see so much money funneling into Switzerland. The issue is that people feel they are being taxed too much, and thus, try to avoid paying these taxes.

As I said - I don't think the US government thinks people storing money in a Swiss bank account is a serious issue. They would probably prefer it was stored in the US but it's not their driving objection to Swiss bank accounts. Having more secretive bank accounts in the US would still cause problems for the US government in collecting taxes.

Again, who is doing the taking here?

If the person is avoiding tax completely then the poor innocent little tax evader is the one who is stealing from the rest of the population.

Of course it's not impossible. But did you just walk across the border? And furthermore, how easy and time consuming is it to get a working permit in that country for the rest of your life?

If you're not prepared to go this this inconvenience it sounds like you are saying that paying higher taxes is worth more to you than the hassle of moving. Kinda like *****ing about over priced rent but staying anyway because it's too much trouble to move and you don't want to have a longer commute.

Will they even ACCEPT you into the country if you have no nationality and therefore valid passport?

Who is asking you to give up your nationality?!

It depends. It's definitely easier if you have money, but there are other considerations to moving.

Again - if someone does not move due to these other factors then it would seem the entire package of living in the US is worth the taxes.

Yes, and can you just walk or fly across the border to the country of your choice and work there forever?

I can do this anywhere in the EU Most countries just require that you prove you are useful to them - which you will probably qualify for if you are a net contributor to the US tax system.

Or do those work permits expire and require time and money to get?

Again - *****ing about paying too much in rent but staying anyway because you don't want to pay for a removal van or go to the inconvenience of moving.

Monetary barriers, perhaps.

If you have money is a Swiss Bank then those barriers are highly unlikely to be an issue.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Swiss Banking

I can do this anywhere in the EU Most countries just require that you prove you are useful to them - which you will probably qualify for if you are a net contributor to the US tax system.

This was mainly the point of my Schengen agreement notice.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

This was mainly the point of my Schengen agreement notice.

I doubled up a bit on what you said, I should also have been clearer - the comment should read:

"I can do this anywhere in the EU Most other countries just require that you prove you are useful to them - which you will probably qualify for if you are a net contributor to the US tax system."

Meaning that people can generally emigrate anywhere in the world, they just have to convince the country they are moving to that they will be useful. I just don't have to go to that effort if I stay in the EU.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: Swiss Banking

Well this means one of two things:

1) The US and the "other troubled economies" were able to put pressure on the Swiss to the tune of $2 trillion plus, or

2) The Swiss are vastly overconfident about their banks' customer loyalty.

LOL

That's hilarious. :thumbsup:

Stop rewarding that stupid stunt of his.

You mean of JMerv's.

So you are okay with the government coming into your domicile right now and having a look around through your things? The files on your computer? After all, if you have nothing illegal what could possibly go wrong?

What are you on about? They are just trying to make these Swiss bank accounts as open to audit as domestic ones (although I doubt they will actually get that far). Do you think tax department audits trespass on your rights? Fraud investigations? You think because you have a Swiss numbered account you somehow have the right to hide evidence from legal procedings - a right you wouldn't have if you put the money in the Bank of America instead?

I never said Switzerland doesn't have taxes. Switzerland's policies, however, make it more attractive to people trying to stash or move money. They are more competitive, plain and simple. It's not like people just decided to put their money there (as opposed to banks in other countries) because the coin they flipped happened to land on Switzerland.

They are more competitive in the same way that ThePirateBay is more competitive than your local music/DVD store, you ****ing idiot. People choose to put their money in Swiss banks because that way they can circumvent laws.