Swiss Banking

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Swiss Banking

and yes, if you dont have anything to hide what IS the big deal? and why would it get me in trouble? proof that im a law abiding citzen or w/e gonna screw me over?

The big deal is that it is not the government's business. Just because it might do you no harm doesn't mean that it should be allowed. Besides, once you give government the power, it doesn't like to give the power back.

Also, why on earth would people voluntarily give up constitutional protections? You never know when you'll need them.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

The big deal is that it is not the government's business.

But taxes are the government's business.

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

There is another side to the slippery slope, in that the more privacy you grant regarding evidence of a persons earnings the more taxes are paid on an 'honor code' system. Though I realize that this is pretty much what the more libertarian among us effectively believe the system should be.

Moo, Saro, and/or KA believe in the income tax?

what do the files on my computer have to do with the goverment?

You wouldn't happen to be storing dangerous, objectionable, or illegal files, would you?

and yes, if you dont have anything to hide what IS the big deal? and why would it get me in trouble? proof that im a law abiding citzen or w/e gonna screw me over?

My privacy. You have no business looking in my house or in my car trunk. And what makes you think that you'll always be a law-abiding citizen (assuming that's true now)? Who gets to make and change laws, anyway? And hey, what if someone in a position of authority doesn't like you or what you believe in and does want to screw you over? You've never seen people abuse a position of power before in an unprofessional manner?

Sure, MAYBE no one gets hurt if everyone plays by the rules. But if you think everyone always plays by the rules, well, you need to get out more.

But taxes are the government's business.

So is enforcing copyright laws. Should that give the government authority to search everyone's homes and computers at will to ensure that there is no illegal contraband, dangerous or stolen files, etc?

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

Moo, Saro, and/or KA believe in the income tax?

I suspect that they would have little/no objection to people paying income tax on a voluntary basis or people voluntarily donating money to private or government run programs that would normally be funded by taxes raised.

So is enforcing copyright laws. Should that give the government authority to search everyone's homes and computers at will to ensure that there is no illegal contraband, dangerous or stolen files, etc?

I'm pretty sure that when a company owning copyright has evidence that you have infringed upon their copyright and makes a complaint then they government does have the authority to search your house.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Swiss Banking

Prosecuting criminals is a government function. Maybe we should have no privacy at all because privacy just allows people to commit crime.

 

[KillerAim]

Re: Swiss Banking

PFSS:

I'm pretty sure that when a company owning copyright has evidence that you have infringed upon their copyright and makes a complaint then they government does have the authority to search your house.

Define evidence. Are we talking about just a suspicion of tax evasion or are we talking about concrete evidence of tax law violations?

Hopefully, some of the more independent tax havens will hold their ground. If that happens, expect a large quantity of money to transfer out of the Swiss banking system.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Swiss Banking

Swiss cheese and Swiss banking privacy now look alike.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

PFSS:
Hopefully, some of the more independent tax havens will hold their ground. If that happens, expect a large quantity of money to transfer out of the Swiss banking system.

I realize you object to the concept of tax/forced payment to the government, however what you seem to be saying is that you hope the means will still exist to better enable people to commit crime.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: Swiss Banking

Or just to be able to track every penny I own?
And use the fact that they can't account for some of them to rule that it must be due to illegal activity?

Can you say catch 22?

What you seem to be saying is that you hope the means will still exist to better enable governments to control every aspect of peoples lives.

(and finance is the way to start because they have such a good record with it and people have no right to object to the rules governments make no matter what the individuals opinion.)

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

Or just to be able to track every penny I own?
And use the fact that they can't account for some of them to rule that it must be due to illegal activity?

In the context of Killers comment talking about 'tax havens', the purpose of such havens is to avoid/evade paying tax - which is a crime.

As I said - essentially if you want a system where a persons earnings are completely private from the government then you're aiming for a system where tax is effectively voluntary. And I realize that several people on this board disagree with the concept of tax completely so I imagine they have no problem with that.

"What you seem to be saying is that you hope the means will still exist to better enable governments to control every aspect of peoples lives"

For the record - I live and work in a country that does not have income tax and do not pay taxes on my earnings either here or in my countries of citizenship. Financial transactions are pretty free too - I can get my company to pay me in cash without any fuss at all. But this is definitely NOT a free society and there are civil liberties restrictions that would never fly even in the current Orwellian UK.

 

[The Sandcat]

Re: Swiss Banking

Prosecuting criminals is a government function. Maybe we should have no privacy at all because privacy just allows people to commit crime.

There are so many laws in any given country that even a lawyer does not know then all,even less fully understand them.On complex issues, there will be many different legal opinions.
Second,everybody has done a few things that are illegal,whether they are aware of it or not.If you help a friend move by using your truck to load his furniture, and he pays you for it,do you tell the taxman?Have you used your car for commercial purposes without a license?
In Germany it is perfectly legal For a 16 y old to have a beer.If you drink a beer with your 18 year old son at home in the US,would you want the cops bust you? If the cops saw everything ,95 % of all u21's would be in jail for underage drinking (USA).And 99,999% of all adults would go to jail at one or other time.
Then there is the matter of all those ridiculous and stupid laws,which nobody really cares about.Google this and you will see what I mean.
So be careful with stupid statements such as " we need no privacy".
Governments can make anything they like a "crime".Would you obey a law that makes coffee a prohibited dependence producing substance?
So, screw all those unneccessary laws.

 

[trashX]

Re: Swiss Banking

My privacy. You have no business looking in my house or in my car trunk. And what makes you think that you'll always be a law-abiding citizen (assuming that's true now)? Who gets to make and change laws, anyway? And hey, what if someone in a position of authority doesn't like you or what you believe in and does want to screw you over? You've never seen people abuse a position of power before in an unprofessional manner?

dont quote only what you need... i said if you gave me a valid reason you could search my "private area". not just because you want it. afaik this already exists, its called a search warrant. dunno about banking but can the goverment just check out your accounts without a reason? do they not have to have a "account search warrant" or something?

Would you obey a law that makes coffee a prohibited dependence producing substance?
So, screw all those unneccessary laws.

well weed is illegal and afaik for "no reason". i dont see that coffe law as all to stupid

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Swiss Banking

So be careful with stupid statements such as " we need no privacy".

I had hoped it was clear I was being sarcastic. But your point is exactly why I made the sarcastic statement. There are lots of laws out there that can nail a person, and they may not even know it.

If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.
-Cardinal Richelieu

 

[krischan]

Re: Swiss Banking

There are lots of laws out there that can nail a person, and they may not even know it.

We have a "not knowing is no excuse" part in the trading rules as well :whistling:

It makes sense that way, as long as people have a chance to learn about all laws and regulations, but unlike the trading rules (which are a matter of 15 minutes of thorough reading), this is not the case with respect to real world laws. Anyway, having common sense is a good thing to have, it will help a lot with respect to most cases... but not all of them.

A couple makes a walk through a graveyard. They see a tombstone with the line "Here lies a good man and a lawyer" and the one says to the other "Oh, look there, a double grave".

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

I suspect that they would have little/no objection to people paying income tax on a voluntary basis or people voluntarily donating money to private or government run programs that would normally be funded by taxes raised.

Then why would the government have any business making sure you pay your taxes? How is the statement, "the more privacy you grant regarding evidence of a persons earnings the more taxes are paid on an 'honor code' system," relevant at all if income taxes are not required?

I'm pretty sure that when a company owning copyright has evidence that you have infringed upon their copyright and makes a complaint then they government does have the authority to search your house.

Yes, if the evidence is good enough to... obtain a search warrant. Which is a whole different animal from, "if you don't let me search your house when I ask, it's because you're guilty of something, so you'd better let me in or I'll take you to jail," or something along those lines.

dont quote only what you need... i said if you gave me a valid reason you could search my "private area". not just because you want it. afaik this already exists, its called a search warrant. dunno about banking but can the goverment just check out your accounts without a reason? do they not have to have a "account search warrant" or something?

I only quote relevant parts for clarity. But don't mistake that for me not reading what you said. It is irrelevant if you have a "valid" (in your eyes or mine) reason to search my house. If you don't have a search warrant, you aren't getting in legally.

And if the evidence exists to get a search warrant and search my home, then go get one and come back. That's again, a far cry from, "if you refuse to consent to a search, it must be because you're guilty of something." If that evidence doesn't exist, that doesn't mean the police can't attempt to... "persuade" you into consenting to a search. Just because the police request a search doesn't mean they have probable cause or the evidence to obtain a warrant, and unless they have that, you really should consider taking advantage of your rights.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

Then why would the government have any business making sure you pay your taxes? How is the statement, "the more privacy you grant regarding evidence of a persons earnings the more taxes are paid on an 'honor code' system," relevant at all if income taxes are not required?

A system where the government has no way to measure how much tax you should pay is essentially a system where you pay tax on an honor code/voluntary basis. I am just pointing out that I acknowledge that the libertarians here disagree with taxes to start with and a voluntary system would be OK with them so I realize that this 'issue' of the government being unable to effectively collect taxes is not one that will pull their heart strings.

Yes, if the evidence is good enough to... obtain a search warrant. Which is a whole different animal from, "if you don't let me search your house when I ask, it's because you're guilty of something, so you'd better let me in or I'll take you to jail," or something along those lines.

And here is the issue - if the evidence for tax evasion is good enough to obtain a search warrant, that warrant cannot (or couldn't) be enforced if the money is/was in a Swiss bank account.

Privacy of your home: Government can violate if they have sufficient evidence you are committing a crime to obtain a search warrant.

Privacy of Swiss bank account: Government can't violate even if they have enough evidence to obtain a search warrant.

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

And here is the issue - if the evidence for tax evasion is good enough to obtain a search warrant, that warrant cannot (or couldn't) be enforced if the money is/was in a Swiss bank account.

Privacy of your home: Government can violate if they have sufficient evidence you are committing a crime to obtain a search warrant.

Privacy of Swiss bank account: Government can't violate even if they have enough evidence to obtain a search warrant.

Which only applies to foreign governments AFAIK. And that makes perfect sense. No country should be able to enforce its laws on other countries. Maybe other countries should be more competitive when it comes to taxes and policy if they're so unhappy about money flowing into Switzerland. :coffee:

 

[PFSS]

Re: Swiss Banking

Which only applies to foreign governments AFAIK. And that makes perfect sense. No country should be able to enforce its laws on other countries.

I agree that one country should not be able to enforce it's laws on another, but I would hope you agree that a country should be able to negotiate with another for cooperation regarding investigating criminal activity.

Maybe other countries should be more competitive when it comes to taxes and policy if they're so unhappy about money flowing into Switzerland. :coffee:

This is a fair statement when it relates to businesses and/or people moving to other countries to work, however tax evaders are apparently rather happy living in the US, they just insist on breaking US law.

Your example relating to people/businesses moving overseas is like saying "If a shop is unhappy about people choosing their competitors then they should be more competitive in their pricing so more people shop at their store".

Your example relating to people/businesses evading tax while staying in the US is like saying "If a shop is unhappy about shoplifters then they should be more competitive in their pricing so more people will pay for their goods".

 

[Johnny]

Re: Swiss Banking

Maybe other countries should be more competitive when it comes to taxes and policy if they're so unhappy about money flowing into Switzerland. :coffee:

Switzerland has taxes like everyone else. The issue here is that companies are run in the US but the money is hidden in Switzerland. They're not paying taxes on either country so Switzerland's taxes are irrelevant.

 

[Module88]

Re: Swiss Banking

I agree that one country should not be able to enforce it's laws on another, but I would hope you agree that a country should be able to negotiate with another for cooperation regarding investigating criminal activity.

Sure, you can negotiate and talk. Nothing wrong with that.

This is a fair statement when it relates to businesses and/or people moving to other countries to work, however tax evaders are apparently rather happy living in the US, they just insist on breaking US law.

Your example relating to people/businesses moving overseas is like saying "If a shop is unhappy about people choosing their competitors then they should be more competitive in their pricing so more people shop at their store".

Your example relating to people/businesses evading tax while staying in the US is like saying "If a shop is unhappy about shoplifters then they should be more competitive in their pricing so more people will pay for their goods".

Shoplifting? Perhaps you forgot who's taking the money from who.

Now, we can go at it all day with regards to whether the taxes are right or not, but I'd rather not. If a US citizen evades taxes and gets caught, he should pay the price under US law, plain and simple. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he's doing the shoplifting by evading taxes to begin with.

Switzerland has taxes like everyone else. The issue here is that companies are run in the US but the money is hidden in Switzerland. They're not paying taxes on either country so Switzerland's taxes are irrelevant.

I never said Switzerland doesn't have taxes. Switzerland's policies, however, make it more attractive to people trying to stash or move money. They are more competitive, plain and simple. It's not like people just decided to put their money there (as opposed to banks in other countries) because the coin they flipped happened to land on Switzerland.