Suicide vs. Wizzy & +2 Valor vs. Upped Viper

[iMMoRtaL_kiiNg]

Suicide vs. Wizzy & +2 Valor vs. Upped Viper

For my hammerdin i've been planning to build, i'm thinking about using suicide branch instead wizzy since i'll be able to max res without wizzy and gain the +1 skills. Only thing i'm worried about is losing the huge amount of mana given by wizzy. I've calculated that i'll have about 300 - 350 mana with base energy (without charms), which leads to my question, could anyone give me an idea of how long i could cast hammers until i run out of mana and basically if this enough mana? Btw i've never played with a hammerdin before.

My second question is does anyone else here think a +2 valor is a good endgame armour because i've never heard it been mentioned in any guides or threads?. If socketed with a -15req jewel the str req will only be 140 instead of 165 which is fairly reachable. I think a valor would be great since FCR isn't needed on the armour since the 75FCR break point is easily reached with wizzy/suicide (50), arach mesh (20) and magefists (20). The resistances lost with valor (opposed to upped viper) are also quite easily made up for in jewels and charms. The valor would also let you hit the 5 frame FHR break point together with sandstorm treks (50FHR). Anyone else think this is a good idea? (plz don't mention enigma or COH cause i'm not that rich :cheesy: )

Any feedback would be much appreciated, thanks guys.

 

[biezt]

I love arky +2 on hammerdin

Last ladder i used arky +2 on my hammerdin, while it gives 1 skill more then skin, and a big boost on vit. I'm here to check fcr & fhr breaks, so maybe i'm gonna use skin now I'll keep you updated on this thread

 

[jd20pod]

I will answer one of your questions and leave the rest to the pros mana will not be an issue. get that point in redemption and you will only need mana pots for baal and mana burn monsters.

with the gear you discribed you should kill mephesto in 11-13 hammers Diablo should take about 17 and baal should take 25+ so with 300 mana (approximatlly 30+ hammers) all your mana needs should be covered

 

[Tanatus]

In reality hammerdin dont need much mana with ~450 mana I can afford 3-4 none stop group killing before mana drop below comfortable lvl. Actually 300-350 is suffcient number for hell 8 player game assuming your hammer do 7K+...
About valor ... I dont think +1 skill on armor worth losing 30-35% resistance, 11-14MDR and 30FCR compare to viper. Dont foget that upped viper requied only 77 str vs. valor 140 which is transforms into ~200 HP less with valor compare to viper (1 vita = 3hp). Dont foget that you can socket viper with something more usefull then simple -15% req (Um will boost resistance or ptopaz will boost MF or you boost deffense with Pul)

 

[iMMoRtaL_kiiNg]

I can quite easily get maxed resists without viper and the 30FCR will be useless cause i'll already hit the 75FCR breakpoint with suicide/wizzy, arach mesh and magefists. The 140STR required for valor will be quite easy to get to, with 20str from HOZ (109), 15Str from sandstorms (124), 5 from Maras (129), 2 from shako (131) which leaves me with 9 points to put in str to gain a extra skill, 30FHR and 42 vit (lvl85). Btw that dosen't include a fairly high stat anni (17-19). In the end i'll need to put in about 60 points in str which i think is quite reasonable.

Anyone know how much a low HOTO goes for on USWEST ladder? I mean REALLY low stats :lol: Cause i might just have enough funds to get one thats if they're around gul

Thanks for the responses guys.

 

[Tanatus]

I'd guess that Gul+Mal/Ist could probably net you 30-32 HOTO

 

[wvx_leader_returns]

wiz > suicide

I've tested it on many different characters. And in most cases for casters: wiz > all.

-wvx

 

[Tanatus]

wiz > suicide

I've tested it on many different characters. And in most cases for casters: wiz > all.

-wvx

We been argued about this forever
Look suicide vs. wizardspike you have trade off
+1 skill +40 life vs. +~292 (at lvl 94) mana
Resistance irrelavant in most cases specially for hammerdin because of cookie-cutter gear - HOZ (pdiamond/um)/Mara/3Anaya quest/upped Vipermagi or alternatively HOTO+enigma
Why I consider +1 skill better then 290+ mana I already explained many time too
+1 skills = +300-400 hammer damage via BH/conc
+1 skill = +500-800 deffense rating via HS
+1 skil = better redmption, cleansing, meditation and others 1 point skills wonders
Wizardspike is pisspoor solution for ppl who badly lacking resistances that's all
About other casters you probably smoking really good crack
Sorcs have in arsenal much better items - occy (meteororb built), death fathom (blizzard based), eschuta (pure fire, pure lighting) heck even tal's orb better then its in set
Druids - again HOTO is far superior over wizardspike
Necros - death web > wizardspike
So please explain again for what type caster wizarspike the best prime hand item and what it have so much usefull that make it item number 1 for hammerdin

 

[niomosy]

We been argued about this forever
Look suicide vs. wizardspike you have trade off
+1 skill +40 life vs. +~292 (at lvl 94) mana
Resistance irrelavant in most cases specially for hammerdin because of cookie-cutter gear - HOZ (pdiamond/um)/Mara/3Anaya quest/upped Vipermagi or alternatively HOTO+enigma
Why I consider +1 skill better then 290+ mana I already explained many time too
+1 skills = +300-400 hammer damage via BH/conc
+1 skill = +500-800 deffense rating via HS
+1 skil = better redmption, cleansing, meditation and others 1 point skills wonders
Wizardspike is pisspoor solution for ppl who badly lacking resistances that's all
About other casters you probably smoking really good crack
Sorcs have in arsenal much better items - occy (meteororb built), death fathom (blizzard based), eschuta (pure fire, pure lighting) heck even tal's orb better then its in set
Druids - again HOTO is far superior over wizardspike
Necros - death web > wizardspike
So please explain again for what type caster wizarspike the best prime hand item and what it have so much usefull that make it item number 1 for hammerdin

Wizard Spike is fine for Hammerdin's that run MF and need resists. I use one on mine and it works just great. I lose a +1 to skills which I don't particularly care that much about. In return, I can concentrate a lot more on MF gear rather than resists gear.

Slight correction there on Necro's. The Death's Web is really only good for pnova Necro's. Other Necro's won't really benefit as greatly from this wand. Here's what it should probably look like.

Poison Necro's - death's web > wizard spike
Summoner Necro's - arm of king leoric > wizard spike
Bone Necro's - white > wizard spike

 

[Burnt_Toast]

well... wiz is good for singers i suppose, altho 1.10 runewords pretty much > all :cheesy:

 

[Weltkriegpally]

I dunno, I tend to think that this might be better summed up in this regard.

PVM:: anything goes

PVP:: spike > most anything else. That extra resistance and mana makes too much of a difference to waste time with some measly plus skills. We can debate it more if you like, but personally, I like the 'spike.

now for your other options:: you have a valor and an upped magi? 1k defense vs. 1500 ish defense? If you can break 10k defense in pvm, you are gonna be hard for monsters to hit. You will still gain some nice life, and really, it isn't that bad an idea. if you hit 400 mana, you are going to do well indeed. Just remember to get a point in redemption, because you will kill, and then everything just turns into rejuvs for you. I would go with the valor for the defense. also, waterwalks would be better for boots. 65 life and 15 dex (on perfect, of course) vs. 20 fhr (not needed pvm, or pvp, really) and 30 stats? You would get more life out of them, and even have potentially better fire resists. also, if you use a tgods, you will have good lightning resists/absorb and extra good stats. It would be better to use that than go with arachnid mesh, and then use a fcr ring or something to make up your cast rate. Good luck!

--welt

 

[iMMoRtaL_kiiNg]

I'm gonna have to take tanatus's side about the suicide vs. wizzy debate. Simply because its just so easy to max resists with a pally and there is no point stacking resists in PVM. Even if you are a bit short you can easily make up for it with socketing your items with resists jewels or charms. Even though the +1 skills and 40life isn't much its better than extra resists which are doing absolute nothing. The way i see it is a hammerdin needs to get all the +skills he can get because anything else can be made up with charms, unless your rich enough to to pay 2ums-ist for a plain combat charm! Me, i'm the average joe who never buys any perfect items and always trades his stuff if he's getting a good deal :lol:

Unlike melee characters who can use poison, dmg charms etc, a hammerdins inventory is left to put only either combat charms, (cause +skills to defensive or offensive dont add to synergies), life/mana, FRW, FHR, and resists. So you might as well put your charms to use and get as much damage from your items.

The 20 life you lose from sandstorms (30 stats = 90HP) instead of waterwalks (65life + 15stats = 110HP) can be made up with a single small charm, while the 20FHR needs 4 sc to replace. The sandstorms would definately be a much better choice for my hammerdin cause with valor (30FHR) and sandstorms (20FHR), it lets me hit the 48FHR break point. I think i've mentioned that too many times :lol: The extra defence is nice too. Though i did forget that waterwalks have 5% max fire res, and +100 def against missles, i'm not really sure if they help much. Does the +100 def against missiles work with holy shield? Since i dont see the stat doing anything on the character attributes i tend not to think about it lol.

Also about the tgods, i'll need to wear the arach mesh to hit the 75FCR break point so i'll probably use a wisp protector instead for those pesky black souls and gloams or whatever their called but thanks for the advice.

Edit: I thought that FHR would be fairly important for a hammerdin since they have to get pretty close most of the time dont they? But i suppose not as close as melee pallys. I've never used a hammerdin before so i guess i dont really know lol. Also I would use tgods but that means i'd have to sacrifice 2 skills to hit the FCR break point, unless i could get hold a nice +2 pally ammy with FCR. Would it still be worth it? Thanks for the replies :thumbsup:

 

[wvx_leader_returns]

We been argued about this forever
Look suicide vs. wizardspike you have trade off
+1 skill +40 life vs. +~292 (at lvl 94) mana
Resistance irrelavant in most cases specially for hammerdin because of cookie-cutter gear - HOZ (pdiamond/um)/Mara/3Anaya quest/upped Vipermagi or alternatively HOTO+enigma
Why I consider +1 skill better then 290+ mana I already explained many time too
+1 skills = +300-400 hammer damage via BH/conc
+1 skill = +500-800 deffense rating via HS
+1 skil = better redmption, cleansing, meditation and others 1 point skills wonders

Ok For the +1 that affects hammers, I am going to take Garbads thoughts and talk about that. The point is: If you are say 2 hit killing, unless that 300 hammer damage is enough for you to 1 hit kill, then forget the hammer damage. The one point wonders are one point wonders cause you dont need to put two points in there. +1 to vigor isnt gonna do much on the ias, and +1 the redemption isnt gonna be much at all. So basically its a trade off from 500 ish defense or 75 resist in my mind. And yeah... ill take the resist.

Wizardspike is pisspoor solution for ppl who badly lacking resistances that's all

Thats just plain ignorant to say. Just plain ignorant. You know better.

About other casters you probably smoking really good crack

I reported you for that comment. Disrespectful and childish.

Sorcs have in arsenal much better items - occy (meteororb built), death fathom (blizzard based), eschuta (pure fire, pure lighting) heck even tal's orb better then its in set
Druids - again HOTO is far superior over wizardspike
Necros - death web > wizardspike

I'm sorry... I mustve been mistaken. We are in a paladin forum. I shouldnt have been talking about only paladins. WOOPS my mistake.

I'm gonna have to take tanatus's side about the suicide vs. wizzy debate. Simply because its just so easy to max resists with a pally and there is no point stacking resists in PVM. Even if you are a bit short you can easily make up for it with socketing your items with resists jewels or charms. Even though the +1 skills and 40life isn't much its better than extra resists which are doing absolute nothing. The way i see it is a hammerdin needs to get all the +skills he can get because anything else can be made up with charms, unless your rich enough to to pay 2ums-ist for a plain combat charm! Me, i'm the average joe who never buys any perfect items and always trades his stuff if he's getting a good deal

I looked and I never saw we were talking about just PVM. Also, like I said before: hammers are easy to get a 2 hit kill - unless its enough to get you a one hit kill, who cares. Same thing with 3 or 4 hit for that matter. Also, some of us would rather be ber'ing our items rather than puting resist jewels and ums in there.

unless your rich enough to to pay 2ums-ist for a plain combat charm! Me, i'm the average joe who never buys any perfect items and always trades his stuff if he's getting a good deal

Wizardspike is pisspoor solution for ppl who badly lacking resistances that's all

Unless im mistaken... theres a hammerdin that uses suicide for the skills cause he Cant Afford combat charms... So how is the wiz a pisspoor solution there.

PVP:: spike > most anything else. That extra resistance and mana makes too much of a difference to waste time with some measly plus skills. We can debate it more if you like, but personally, I like the 'spike.

Agreed.

----------------------------------------------

bleh... this is getting annoying.

-wvx

 

[Uhgii]

So basically its a trade off from 500 ish defense or 75 resist in my mind. And yeah... ill take the resist.

I'm with wvx on this one. If you're killing for that 500 defense, throw some good defense/life charms in your inventory... those resists are worth too much to give up.

If you can honestly, and easily, get resists elsewhere... then I don't see why you shouldn't take the suicide branch, but personally, I'd go with a wizzy.

And I don't agree that a wizzy is a "pisspoor solution" for anything. I think that's a little ignorant, too.

 

[Tanatus]

HOTO is 30-40 resist
Branch is 10 resist
so actual gain from wizarspike is 65 resist top
Someone brought up agrument that then you hammer damage 12K replacing HOTO with wizard spike aren't harm you much ... *Sign* then you are above ~10K/75FCR hammer with maxed resistance lighting/fire absorb and some MDR - no changes in gear that not harm those parameters will do anything for your duralubility or efficiency.
I mentioned couple time that were a couple brake points in hammer damage that affect me greatly ... Once I got hammer over 5K - I start able kill most things in NM in single hit and been able kill archers in Hell in 2 kill and rest things usually took ~3hits. Second brake point was 7.5K hammer - at this point I was able kill in single hit archers/scaterring monsters in Hell and it usually took 2 hit to kill most other mobs. From my old hammerdin I recall that next brake point was around 11K hammer - single hit-kill for most monsters except champs (I heared next brake point is 14K)...
Then you are carrying 10 combat, have deffense 12.5K+ +-1 HS wont be notable difference - but if you dont have combat charms and your deffense are merely at 5-7K - gaining extra 800 deffense give visible difference. Suicide branch arent end-game weapon by any mean - lvl req for it 33 - its good developing tool untill time you gather wealth for HOTO. My whole point is that wizardspike arent upgrade for suicide branch rather downgrade at low lvls and simply irrelavant change in the end-game.
To have same stats you can have
a) HOTO (assuming medium stats 35 res) and 3 15 Res all GC, 1 5 res all small charm (take total 10 spaces in inventory)
b) wizardspike and 3 combat, 3 offensive aura, 3 deffensive aura charms which take 27 spaces in invetory
Ofseting excess of resistance on wizardspike much easy and much cheaper then offseting skill lose on HOTO

 

[Neuroff]

You're forgetting that if you wear Viper, you can put on a fcr ring and get 9 frame cast...

 

[wvx_leader_returns]

I am VERY angry that my post didnt post right and wasnt put in... ill post what i wanted to say later.

-wvx