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(Suggestion tread) Improvement of Rare and Magic Items

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Treeharl, Jun 4, 2016.

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  1. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    After I created a review tread upon gamebalance, several forummembers told me they might like to see rare items be compative with Unique items and Runewords. Other features will be on separate treads. The point of this tread is a place where people suggest what they like to see improved. There are two ways to make a sugestion one is sugesting to remove a magic only modifier and two is to sugest a new preflix or aflix! Also specify your purposed level req! Please also specify what pieces of equipment should have these aflixes. Unfortuniatly d2 itemstatcost.thx has several caps that are important to know. Don't suggest negative atributes unless you are familliar with the values in itemstatcost.txt.

    1 All skilltabs, allskilltabs and classskill tabs are capped at 7.
    2 ED on weapons and armor is capped at 511.
    3 HP regen is capped at 50
    4. Elemental damage (exept poison) is capped at 511 max.

    Try to make balanced sugestions. I will not accept the following!
    1 Rare charms (There is NO WAY these belong in any version of d2) asking a new magic preflix or sufflix or improving is ok. Be a bit carefull sugesting because charms are already very usefull at the moment and a big buff becomes likely gamebreaking.
    2 allskills or classskills on armor torso's is "capped" at 3 helms and amu's at 2 and all other itemslots exept weapons at 1, one handed weapons at 3 and two handed weapons at 7. If you make a sugestion that doesn't match these boundaries it gets denied without hesitation.
    3 Artisans (3 socket) might be enabled on rares but Jewelers (4 socket) gets denied because it is major gamebreaking when implimented
    4. Any weapon preflix or sufflix above 300 ed.
    5. Any armor preflix or sufflix above 250 ed.
    6. Any single skill or oskill above 15.
    7 Any aura when equiped modifier.
    8 Teleport or battle orders oskill
    9. A preflix or sufflix that adds etherealness.
    10 On any itemslot the sum of total resistances should be less than 80 (20 allresist or another resist variant) a single resist is capped at 50.
    11 more than 100 dmg, the dmg mod is buggy and adding values above 100 become gamebreaking (Sorry Grief)
    12 only one %max resistance per afflix or preflix is allowed.
    13 extra elemental damage or enemies - resistance is capped at 20.
    14 Mf% is capped at 75 and goldfind at 200
    15 Do not create preflixes and sufflixes with a level req above 73. Level 73 becomes when we craft items level 96 and there is no point going above that vallue.
     
  2. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen IncGamers Member

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    Well... I'm most likely not gonna play your edition, and my suggestion is invalid in that it contadicts your specifications, but..

    I've allways wanted to see the "+1 oskill teleport" unique jewel (no other stats) that would allow for Enigma'ish abilities with a multitude of unique/rare/magic/crafted armors. It would definately not balance the game, but imo it would allow for some more obscore builds to have their day in the sun, and also allow for some of the unique/set armors to actually be used.

    On a more serious note:
    The mf allowed on jewels is appalling (Emerald affix 3-7mf). I wouldn't mind having the same mf prefixes and suffixes allowed on rings to be allowed on jewels as well. This would make a blue jewel of 40mf possible while also allowing for nice rare jewels that might be considered over the ever-present Ist runes.
     
  3. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    @ThomasJohnsen MF on jewels is certainly a good idea for the reason you posted. I have experimented with a 1 oskill carry one teleport sc which causes less balance issues as a jewel but imo "ruins the aspect of playing vanilla". Edit: What could be an option is to add an elite unique helmet with just 1 teleport and no sidemods

    To make some suggestions I have thought about myself
    1 Increase sorc staves preflix sufflix database, 5 (maybe 6) sorc skills, 50% cast and 200 mana and single resistance mods up to 50.
    2 Add 1 and 2 allskills to the Helm and torso preflix pool.
    3 Increase stat bonusses on torso's to atleast 40
    4 add a +def preflix on all kind of armors
    5 Make regular helms have the same life and manaleach as circlets
    6 Enable artisans on weapons, armors, helms, and shields (exept circlets)
    7 Enable 10 and 20 fcr sufflixes on torso's gloves, belts and shields.
    8 Enable Cruel on rares.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
  4. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    There is no L in the word "prefix", nor is there one in the word "suffix".

    ...just saying =)

    Next up: Netfix and chill :p
     
  5. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    Offtopic @helvete: Easy explanation, because FLing and FLux and FLy are spelled this way I thought it would be preFLix because fixing something is more like streettalk. Still I failed deeply QQ!

    Ontopic: @Korlic Using the dmg modifier is pretty much possible and prehaps a welcome preFIX. I do put it in to the same group as cruel etc because getting weapons with 250% ed and 150 dmg get pretty rediculous, expecially with ias! Do keep in mind that modifier is a bit buggy and it stacks unintentionally with smite and other melee skills. I am not sure what happens if that modifier is used on missile weapons.
     
  6. JoeBruce

    JoeBruce IncGamers Member

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    Because I hate undefined acronyms:
    MF = Magic Find
    ED = Enhanced Damage
    IAS = Increased Attack Speed
    iLvl = Item Level
    AR = Attack Rating

    Interesting topic... it sounds like you are actually planning to make your own modded version of D2? More power to you; depending of forum rules you might be limited to how much you can discuss here - but that's not my call (if I'm incorrect in my assumption, I apologize and ask you to disregard everything after "interesting topic." Now stop disregarding and read:)

    +1 for the suggestions of adding better MF for jewels, as well as making staves more powerful so they're competitive with an orb/shield combo

    Can you not get cruel prefix on rares? I thought for sure you could. I know I have rares with over +200% ED, and I'm pretty sure it's not because of a King's/Knight's prefix or similar (the ones that add both ED and AR).

    One general suggestion would be to improve how the stat rolling system works overall - that's one thing about Diablo 3 I feel they made some progress on (although I still prefer Diablo 2's item gen system). But that system does a better job of rolling mods that will actually be helpful to a character. The truth is is that rares could be competitive with uniques, but there is such a low chance that the right mods spawn you'll probably never see it.

    Specifics of that idea are the number of stats a high-level rare can roll. Could you implement a tiered system similar to crafts (the higher the iLvl the better chance for more mods)? The system would be useful for the tiers of prefix/suffix categories, too. If you are level 90, you should not be seeing 47% ED on a weapon - you should have a higher chance to roll those ferocious and cruel mods. That could work with a lot of things, like elemental damage, AR, IAS, defense, etc. Eliminate useless mods for the type of weapon (massive ED, IAS and AR likely aren't useful on a staff), give a higher chance for good combos of ED/leech/IAS or fast cast/+mana/+skills and so on.

    It's a topic I've thought about before while playing. Best of luck in your efforts.
     
  7. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    The Cruel prefix is already available on rares. The alvl 51 Cruel with a frequency of 5 is limited to magical items, but the alvl 56 Cruel with a frequency of 1 can spawn on rares.

    Now, for a suggestion. This isn't going to be what you're looking for, but it's intended to further the overall intent you seem to have, as opposed to the stated purpose of this thread.

    Redesigning rare items to be powerful, interesting, and balanced will be a very involved and difficult task. Adding in additional affixes and getting caught up in trying to add in fan-service type aspects is just going to make the job immensely more difficult, if not impossible. If this rework is something you actually want to see to completion and not just a flighty thought experiment (not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with that, but it doesn't seem like what you're trying to do based on what you've said and how much you've posted about it) then what you need to do is sit down and design a complete outline for what you intend to do, which you can then present to the forum at large for suggestions and/or corrections. It's very difficult for people to give feedback with no real direction and you really want to have a framework you can show to help folks visualize what it is you're aiming to do.

    Besides being difficult to implement, there's the additional fact that feedback you're going to get soliciting it this way is unlikely to actually be helpful or particularly sound. I don't know if there are even any true experts on item generation around who would care to help, and even if there are or if people who have some idea are willing to help, do you really expect every suggestion to be preceded by the person digging through text files to gain the numbers for what they're adjusting, calculating that out with a standardized character for normative purposes then cross-referencing that norm with a defined control either in-game or through a trusted test bench as a basis to then compare presumptive changes against and then furthermore assume they will temper these adjustments with the changes in overall power level you have suggested previously and would, in theory also be including in the game? Because that sounds like an awful lot to ask for people who, to be completely frank, have no reason whatsoever to bother.

    If you intend to do this, then cool, rock on, but understand that what you have chosen to do is to do all those tests yourself and sort out the balance yourself. Seeking advice and double-checking and the like from others is cool and good, but the work of figuring out how to change the numbers to achieve balance is 100% what you have taken on to yourself and so a thread like this has, frankly, no real use. Later on when you have a full layout you can present that for comments and suggestions, which because there's is then a framework for those to work within can be expected to have a reasonable level of value.

    Hope you don't take that as anything more than a suggestion, but if you intend to do this I do want you to finish it and that's my advice from what I see.
     
  8. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    @Both Thank you for your elaborated posts

    @JoeBruce I made a mistake indeed, I ment Grandmasters instead of Cruel. It is easy to disable low level useless prefixes and afixes as there is a maxlevel in the collum. Putting a lot of those values above lets say above 50 will drastically enhance the outcome of the rare items. Unfortuniatly rare items are very, very common in the meta as questbugging and superunique hunting nearly guarantees a rare (mostly of an useless itemtype). So basically yes max levels can be assigned and yes I think I am going to impliment it, but when I do so I am also going do reduce the total amounts of rares that spawn (I think I make sets more common as rares as it was pre 1.07)

    @maareek To be honest a sugestiontread as this one helps me with a brainstorm aiming for that 100% balance. It also gives people on the comunity a voice in creating the patch. The problem is, if I was just posting information about I mod I was going to create myself I violated several forumrules. Sharing information and telling people what I could do is a bit in the grey area. I have created a project of my own earlier (moddisclaimer: is not compatible with 1.13 Items won't be used to regular characters) so I think I know what I am up to. It is true that achieving a balanced game is a hard thing to do. The most difficult task is to make the items compatible with 1.13d. I really do apreaciate your post and I am indeed writing down my own plan.
     
  9. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I think it's all fine with magical and rare items (although rare charms would be nice). IMO, an imbalance comes from unique items and runewords. A bit nerfing here and there could produce more niches for which a rare item is the best. It's rather OK with magical items.
     
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  10. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    @krischan I agree on the point where difficulty could be added to the by just nerfing some overpowered unique items and runewords. However since I am trying to make the whole patch compatible with 1.13c and d people could just forward the op items in my patch. That's why I'd rather buff some rares to be par with several unique items as in rare helms can spawn with 2 allskills for example but can't spawn with 10-15% dr. About rare charms the major problem is aigain the compatebility if players manage to revert those charms back to 1.13d the advantage could be way better as allowing annihilus. Also if you take in to concideration that 5% of all superchests drop rares it forces rare charms on such an occasion making players getting op charms extremely likely. You could get a 1pc 40 life [email protected] and 35 mana skiller theoretically!
     
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  11. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    Not if you make all the best charm affixes magic only. But I have to agree with Krischan, magics and rares are just about fine in the current patch. Maybe a little too many useless charges and ctc spells which clog up the affix pool....
     
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  12. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    That is a valid point you made helvete. Guess it will be a though choice which prefix and suffixes will be magic only. I really haven't thought about the possibility to make em magic only (big oops from my part). Still I have to disagree about the magic and rare pool being fine. Lets make a list from the items that are non ethereal nearly 99,8% crap.

    Rare staves: 35K nothing else, everything is lacking. If staves with 5 sorc and 50 fcr exist people might concider using it (hoto + spirit gives 5 allskills and 55-65 cast)
    Rare bodyarmors: Even the best armor 24 fhr 200 ed 2 socket 60 life is still not better as even a leviathan or a templars might... If you are socket hungry just buy a 4 socket 70+ life armor from a vendor.
    Rare Helms: On a very lucky day you might get a visionary helm with 2 sockets. The chance of finding a Zod are like 20 times higher... Some mods from circlets have to carry over to regular helms.
    Rare Shields: 35K nothing else, prismatic and deflecting worked fine in classic but at lod it is very underpowered and underwhelming compared to even Mosers and Whitsans (Including Pala and Nec shields)
    Rare Wands, Orbs, Scepters. If RNG is with you they might turn in to gz lvl 49 mld equipment. Unique items do much better for these items. Getting something good above lvl 49 here is less likely as winning the lottery.
    Rare Gloves: Some cast suffixes makes these rares also worth looking in to for caster characters.
    Rare Boots: Possibly the best rare item to pickup, still deserves all the prelod modifiers.
    Rare Rings: Are pretty awesome. Prehaps they deserve the 1.06 modifiers but I am undecided on that one.
    Rare Amu's: Prehaps atlas and nirvana should be added otherwise it is fine.
    Rare Weapons: If they are non ethereal they are instantly useless... If they are ethereal they need 200+ed and fools or 350+ed to be concidered. Quite boring imo. Also even a 450 ed 2 socket ba with 40 ias is still worse as Grief (GG ingame balance)
     
  13. Pyrohemia

    Pyrohemia IncGamers Member

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    The problem with the design of rare items is the very long probability tails. There is multiple levels to the slot machine which benefit each other multiplicatively.

    Each perfect affix roll is currently around a 1 in 25 to 1 in 50 chance, but multiplies the item power by some factor.

    I think that adding level caps to clear out some of the useless affixes is a good idea, but if you do that you still have the problem of the right combination of 5 or 6 attributes being necessary for greatness. Even if you remove all of the useless affixes, either your pool of affixes gets small and everything seems homogeneous, or you add new interesting affixes and the probability of something that could possibly compete with a runeword is minuscule

    I would approach this by expanding the affix groups (where one affix being picked from the group invalidates the rest) such that you have a few pools for prefix and suffix. Example pools would be offence, defence, style (cast when hit, thorns, light radius, etc.). With the large pools you will generally always get a prefix and suffix from the offence pool on a weapon, but you can't ever combine offence pool affixes. Within the offence pool you would have things like 20% enhanced damage on armors, or attack rating on amulets. On weapons you would have things like:

    (Odds are within the affix pool at the top affix level)
    Example weapon tiers at the top affix level
    Offence Pool Prefixes
    1 in 10 | 100-200% enhanced damage
    1 in 20 | 200-250% enhanced damage
    1 in 30 | 250-300% enhanced damage
    1 in 40 | 250-300% enhanced damage and 1-2 sockets
    1 in 100 | 290-330% enhanced damage and 3-6 sockets
    1 in 30 | +200-400 strength
    1 in 30 | +200-400 dexterity
    1 in 30 | +200-400 energy
    1 in 30 | +500-1000% damage to demons
    1 in 30 | +500-1000% damage to undead
    1 in 100 | 50% chance to cast level 10-25 frozen orb on attack
    1 in 100 | 25% chance to cast level 5-25 corpse explosion on kill
    1 in 100 | +5-25% fire skill damage
    1 in 50 | +50-150% attack rating
    1 in 40 | Adds +(300-500) to (525-750) fire damage
    1 in 100 | 25% chance to cast level 17-34 charged bolt on cast

    Offence suffixes
    1 in 10 | + 20% increased attack speed
    1 in 20 | + 40% increased attack speed
    1 in 100 | Fools and 40% increased attack speed
    1 in 100 | + 100-200% enhanced damage, 40% increased attack speed
    1 in 10 | +20% faster cast rate
    1 in 100 | +40-50% faster cast rate
    1 in 100 | -15-25% enemy fire resistance
    1 in 100 | +1 fend (oSkill)
    1 in 100 | +1 Plague javelin (oSKill, javelins only)


    This makes a weapon that can potentially compete with a runeword 1 in 10 000 rather than 1 in 10 million, and also introduces affixes that can try and compete with a damage bonus like +400 strength but would be dramatically overpowered if they could fall on the same item as a damage affix. Magic items would have the odds of picking from the best prefix and suffix pool multiplied by the chances of specific affixes within those pools.

    Is a berserker axe with 400 strength and 50% faster cast rate any good? I don't know, but I'm sure that there are interesting possibilities. You can also restrict things like +strength only on heavy weapon classes.

    The affixes for 1 and 2-handed weapons should also be separated as only things that multiply weapon damage scale properly.

    Example ideas for defence affixes on weapons
    Prefixes
    1 in 10 | 5-15% mana leach
    1 in 100 | 5% chance to cast level 10 life tap on striking
    1 in 100 | 50% chance to cast level 17 teleport on striking (oooh... can't touch this)
    1 in 30 | + 100-200 mana
    1 in 30 | +30-40 energy
    1 in 30 | +40-75% resistance to poison
    1 in 100 | +10% Gold find / character level
    1 in 100 | 10-25% increased chance of blocking (1-handers only)

    Suffixes
    1 in 10 | 5-15 % life leach
    1 in 30 | +100-200 life
    1 in 30 | +30-40 vitality
    1 in 30 | +20-40% defence
    1 in 40 | Adds + 300-400 defence
    1 in 100 | 5% chance to cast level 20-40 Enchant on striking
    1 in 100 | +1% MF / character level
    1 in 40 | 30-40% faster block rate (1-handeders only)
    1 in 50 | 20-40% faster hit recovery


    Style affix ideas
    1 in 20 | +7 poison damage over 1 second (turns item green)
    1 in 20 | + 3-7 magic damge (turns item white)
    1 in 100 | +25 light radius (I can see EVERYTHING!)
    1 in 50 | 15-25% magic find
    1 in 1000 | +1 find item (oSkill)
     
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  14. Brak

    Brak IncGamers Member

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    I'm not sure if there uselessness was by design or not (I vaguely remember the inspiration being how cool everyone thought LEBs were, and the idea your character could also be a LEB), but making CTC and charges actually something you could use for a build would be a pretty awesome way to amp the affix pool
    Here making CTC skill levels higher, way way higher, could work. As for charges, perhaps make them self replenishing so you can use them sparingly but without the annoyance of running out all the time. And limit them to utility skills instead of skills that you need to spam to actually have an effect.
     
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  15. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    I agree. Both CTC spells and charges can have their place, and can actually be really fun if included correctly. Grim Dawn for example uses both, and they are great fun in that game.
     
  16. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the posting, A very good idea indeed to either cut the ctc equipment or to dramatically buff it. The problem with ctc gear is synergies don't work or cary over. Procs where pretty powerfull in 1.09 but when 1.10 was released synergies where added and the hitpoint pool of mobs rose. Ctc has a skill lvl cap of 63. But even if we have ctc lvl 63 frost nova on helms it isn't going to do much at either nm and hell for example. I think I rather cut the afix pool and make all ctc atleast someway usefull instead of dreadfull (spelltimers also carry over). If they could be boosted to levels above 100 it might have worked but that is not the case.

    @Pyrohemia That's some valuable imput you got there. Still some numbers you posted are above the itemstatcostcaps, but aigain numbers will likely change various times on development. The prefix generator uses groups and frequenty to make prefix and affix choosing exactly the way you've posted. If I dish some ctc procs and set max levels to existing mods and add some new modifiers and put a few magic only in to the rare pool we get nearly the same list as you've posted. As a sidenote 4-6 sockets on rare weapons is op and 50-60 of a single stat on a 2 handed weapon is usually enough (staves might need a bigger buff). One handed weapons + shield combo is already more viable than most two handed weapons so the numbers from one handed equip and two handed equip are going to be different. I am also concidering style affixes, unfortuniatly itemcollors from new affixes and suffixes disappear when you revert your item to 1.13c and there is nothing I can do about that.
     
  17. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    Synergies do work for ctc spells. The upside of this is that you can make them very strong for classes who have the skill as native skill. The downside is that it will be almost impossible to balance things out, if you also want to make them useful for other classes.

    Btw, I'm not entirely sure, but I think that ctc spells don't have a spelltimer. Isn't that why for example Rift Kicksins are / were quite popular?
     
  18. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    That's because of uniques and runewords. I think it's not a good idea to add even better items. I would prefer other items to be nerfed.

    Among the runewords, I would nerf Enigma, Insight, Spirit, Grief and perhaps CtA, by adding penalties (e.g. -100 vit for Enigma), reducing bonuses (Grief's +dmg bonus less by 100, CtA adds just +1 to BO) or by using more expensive runes (one Insight or Spirit rune being Ohm or higher). I'm sure that these runewrds would still be popular.

    Uniques should have some bonus which a rare cannot have and not that much more. A unique shouldn't have an outstanding combination of bread and butter bonuses. For example, Moser's makes 99.99% of all rare shields pointless and later on, you have a unique or runeword shield for almost any build which is even more useful than that.

    OK, staves are an exception. All rare and magical ones are crap because an orb can have pretty much the same good caster affixes and you can wear a shield as well... in addition to unique orbs being better than all of that on top of that. Here we could need better affixes indeed, like bigger +skills and fcr bonuses. Staves could also have a blocking chance, as well as affixes with blocking bonuses.

    What I would like among affixes for rares and magical items is a system with different probabilities at different item levels. I would also like the selection of staffmod tiers depend on the base qlvl instead of the ilvl, as well as staffmods being possible on all claws.

    And yes, less affixes can be more, as helvete said.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  19. Treeharl

    Treeharl IncGamers Member

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    @krischan Very good post. I'd love nerfing eni, cta etc. The problem is I want the patch to be compatible with 1.13c so the comunity can switch their characters in and out the patch. Meaning they can freely switch the OP runewords in my patch from older characters. If I say screw the compatebility that would be a disapointment for the community I guess. People like to forward items to newer patches and technically I am creating a patch. Also there is the problem that negative attributes are capped (by itemstatcost.txt) I CAN change that, but that make any character not from the mod data corrupt however. For example all stats are capped at -32. The best nerf I can impliment is to entirely ban Mal runes (changing the lvl req to 100). That means CTA infinity and grief can no longer be used at all! When the mal runes get reverted to 1.13c the lvl req is 49 aigain. I am also concidering removing the 8% dr from Bers for the same reason. The point of less affixes (and suffixes will be implimented. Making staffmods based on qlvl requires incompatible code editing, I can make automods for elite staves however giving them a selling point. For example they always have 3 to two random sorc skills and 50-80 mana. I can define this to exactly the item meaning I can give Archon Staffs better automods as Walking Sticks.

    I tested it but changing runeorders is unfortuniatly incompatible with 1.13c. I switched the spirit runes to Tal Thul Ort Sur but when converted the item disappears meaning the data from the change isn't rewitable in 1.13c. That is rather unfortunate as this makes nerfing quite difficult.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  20. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    Treeharl,

    I haven't been following this super closely so maybe this post is pointless because I'm misunderstanding, but I'm not sure what you mean by "switching in and out of the patch". If I/we took a regular d2 character from 1.13c or 1.14 or whatever and loaded him in this patch of yours, there would be no going back. That character/those items/etc wouldn't be part of the normal d2 game any more, they would be part of your mod.
     
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