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Static maps a single players downside?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Eriklop, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. Eriklop

    Eriklop IncGamers Member

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    i just wanted to know your opinion about static maps in diablo. Without doubt its handy for us sp guys but after years of playing i find its a downside for me. I know that if you know the game well enough and know its possible maps and how they are layed out you can almost be a maphack yourself. I would like these skills to be usefull, and i would not mind if 1.15 would introduce the random maps in sp. Whats your opnion? It would raise the difficulty of getting items like tc87 from pits etc for sure but maybe thats just a good thing.
     
  2. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I'm torn about it.

    I think it depends on what you are using them for. I personally think that it's cheating to use them for doing quests while MF is a different issue. However, I wouldn't miss it a lot if the -seed command line option isn't available anymore and a new map is generated each time a single player game is started.

    Getting to the Pits etc. isn't difficult. It's just tedious. It takes time with no significant risk or challenge involved. Without map seeds, MF without teleporting would be inefficient because it takes longer to reach the destination, except perhaps Pindle, Travincal and the like. Therefore, map seeds add to the diversity of MF in a way. If I either need a sorc or an Enigma armor (and thus have a limited amount of characters for MF) to be halfway efficient at MF, the game would probably become boring more quickly. Most of single player is about MF and efficiency is an important aspect of MF.

    On the other hand, I'm a bit under the impression that a significant amount of MF is done like a gambling addict throwing a thousand coins into a slot machine.
     
  3. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Not a fan of idea because at the moment map is one of the things which is a special part of every character, along with his gear. There are better maps and there are worse parts, and rolling for map is also a part of developing characters. Removing that you also remove that part of character development which is then all about gear and nothing else.

    Another problem, which is much bigger one in my opinion, is the fact if you make random maps in SP, then Pindleskin will be most killed character in the game because, apart of Tyrael's, he will be much much more efficient target to hit instead of hitting random Pit/AT and whatever maps. Things will not be any harder to find, except for Tyrael's which Pindle cannot drop. Even in static map environment it is quite hard to beat Pindlezerker at farming speed, and only other barbs can do it. Normally unless they make random Pindle maps too, until then Pindle would be damn masterrace to farm and somehow I doubt ANYONE would run anything else to farm stuff, except few of those who like to have fun or are questing.

    Travincal would obviously be masterrace for runefinding cuz LK would not be reliable anymore. That means new people will have much harder time developing and that process would be slower. Is that a good thing or a bad thing is for everyone to decide for themselves.

    People who are more into single-pass and such territory playing style would not mind the change, but any dedicated MF-er who is not interested in questing and tournaments and such events would find a change to be pretty annoying.

    Bottom line is:
    -development of characters for new players will be much slower cuz they will have to farm runes only in Travincal which is not cakewalk with poor gear
    - running Meph won't help much cuz of random maps
    - teleport will be priceless to have, imagine running random Meph maps as poor player without teleport. You better make that sorc going!
    - Pindlezerker would be goldmine character absolutely unrivaled for farming, except for Tyrael's

    As I see it, now things are much better balanced for anyone's taste. You like single pass stuff? Random maps won't really matter to you. You like to MF in dedicated style? Static maps ftw. You wanna farm random maps all the time? No prob, just change difficulty after every run and you have random maps! What you want you can get easy atm. Half of that disappears with introducing random maps.
     
  4. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    I'm with Gripphon here, although I would understand why people would like it the other way, or at least wouldn't mind it. Since I arrived here, I especially learnt to appreciate rerolling maps as part of a good mf/runehunting/something else character, so I would hate that that would go away.

    Maybe a solution to have everyone happy would be to provide both options, where one could choose upon starting a game? Although then again that would mean one extra click, which is nothing in it's own, but would become very tedious when doing very short runs like Pindle, LK, RoF superchest, ...
     
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  5. Eriklop

    Eriklop IncGamers Member

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    Totaly get,your point, there are certainly negative points pindle beeing one. Had to laugh pretty hard though when i read this sentence. "I doubt ANYONE would run anyting else to farm stuff, exept few of those who like to have fun or are questing" I understand that its probably not meant, but it gave me the impression that fun is far from the objective in diablo sp. Made me gigle. I feel that if such a change was made some people would stick to 1.14, but im sure some would like it. And running pindle would be effective but having no chance on tyraels is actually a big thing for grail seekers an perfectionists. For me atleast its a reason not to do pindle. ( dieing from boredom is another) but your points are good points as said before.
     
  6. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    What I meant to say is "fun" in a way to deliberately playing in less efficient way to have better or different experience ^^ But yeah, sounds funny otherwise.
    Normally "fun" (real meaning this time!) is most important thing in the game. This is why for example I have most fun in building and optimizing characters and participating in MFO type tournaments instead of playing single-pass like tournaments or randomly guardianing characters and such.
     
  7. MizzouFTW

    MizzouFTW IncGamers Site Pal

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    Honestly, it's good and bad. It's beneficial to us, yes. However, you could play without static maps if you just reroll them yourself each time. That's extra time spent doing something that's not fun for me, so I probably won't ever do that.

    We get some things that B.net players don't, and they get some things that SP doesn't. They get torch and anni, we get static maps. You take the good with the bad. Facts of life.
     
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  8. Brak

    Brak IncGamers Member

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    Actually, static maps are rather important for single pass full clears. Often times you can't stop at a clean breakpoint, so you have to run through an area on restart. If your map rerolls every time, you would be much more limited in stopping options making the logistics of single pass even more complicated.

    Also I agree with Grip in regards to drastically limiting the MF targets. Pindle+ runs would be the only MF option aside from maybe the Chaos Sanctuary if people got bored running Pindle. One other fallout might be a rise in Arcane Sanctuary Superchests as they would become more reliable than LK. But I think people would still run LK, just hit more poppables.
     
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  9. NorthDakota

    NorthDakota IncGamers Member

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    There's 3 reasons I play single player which are equally important to me. No lag is huge. A fireball or teleport not going off is not good, but happens all the time online. Gomule scratches my hoarder itch. And maps. Static maps make the game so much more enjoyable. You still have to deal with randomness when it counts, leveling a new character. But without static maps I'd have lost interest long ago.

    Farming up mephisto for those first few pieces of gear hooked me forever. Rolled a good map and found all the staples. I never would have been able to build infinity or enigma without static LK.

    Take away static maps and I'd quit.
     
  10. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    @Gripphon Only other super reliable target would be CS + Diablo, I guess. Perhaps Nihl since there are less paths total but he's more niche anyway
     
  11. Eriklop

    Eriklop IncGamers Member

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    Cool to hear all the opinions. Mostly not in favor. I think the impact is so severe that most of us conservative minded spf dudes wont like that drastic of a change. Still, if it would happen im so sure that newer people or even people in here would like it as a breath of fresh air. Just as i loved playing other patches with a differend feel and a differend set of rules. I would at least give it a go, and see what i would like about it and what not.
     
  12. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    What part of static maps do you find a downside? I really don't see a compelling reason to implement them, so I assume I'm missing something.

    I'm not sure this is true. Remember that Trav will get WAY worse too. I don't think run times for LK will be impacted nearly as harshly as Trav times will (remember they can be broken up into three distinct packs and then spread out even further from there) so I think a 200FCR LK sorc vs Trav barb may remain fairly close, even with the loss of ~2 or so chests on average, but I don't think we can know for sure without testing; though clearly if they're still close it would mean each would be laughable compared to their current effectiveness. I'm pretty sure Blizzsorc wouldn't be able to compete with barb anymore at Trav, though.

    I mean even a Blizz sorc running Pindle is probably going to be better than an AT or Pit runner, considering how bad most maps are.

    The map would be consistent, but the spawns would not and it's still going to be worse than Pindle on average. Would also hurt experience farming, from CS and otherwise, by varying boss density and shrine locations.

    This is a huge point, imo. Every player can reroll their map whenver they want as things are right now, why would this be worth development time?

    From what I can think through, the results here will be: limiting effective Magic Find builds and targets, making every type of farming (except for Pindle) slower and removing part of what makes single player characters feel special (I definitely feel a connection to the maps for my most played characters, for instance; and I imagine that feeling is also present for many of the single-pass tournament crowd.)

    I don't know what it adds to counteract those downsides. Like, at all. I guess you could argue added difficulty, but that seems hollow to me since the only difficulty it affects is time spent and patience, which is not an aspect I think this game should require more of considering it already requires hundreds of hours to find high-end stuff and be truly well geared. Punishing new and/or returning players to make the grind more interesting for those spending inordinate amounts of time (especially in a way they could easily implement themselves by choice) makes no sense to me, even as someone with far, far, far more time spent in this game than is reasonable.

    If the argument for them is to make SP more like online, then I have no sympathy for that. Both options exist, and are distinct - created differently by the developers of the game itself - and choosing one of the other should be respected as a choice provided by the developers and chosen by the player. If you want the online experience, play online. If you want the other aspects of SP with dynamic maps, take 5 seconds to reroll maps every time or build/find a game mod. Changing one of the defining aspects of the game mode must have a very, very strong reason behind it - basically it needs to be broken, especially in a situation like this where it's been in place for more than a decade as is - otherwise, as a developer, it's a disingenuous middle finger to the player base whom you gave said option which they elected to choose.
     
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  13. Eriklop

    Eriklop IncGamers Member

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    @maareek There is no downside, its just my opinion that i would probably like the game to be less like a grind i guess. No lk would be the same, and there would be a little less autopilot. I know that there is alot to learn about maps and directions etc and inthink its cool to be able to have an advantage mfing by using thats knowledge. So the downside of static maps is what i would like i guess.

    Anyway its just a thought, in line with the other patches it would be a bit out of line i think. There would be only downsides i terms of effective mfing, for many of us this would make 1.14 the goto patch.
     
  14. Korlic

    Korlic IncGamers Member

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    But no one would bother. Council IMO trumps LK as it is ( Jah, Cham + MF).
     

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