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Stable 2 man team for new players?

Discussion in 'Newcomer Forum' started by crook, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. crook

    crook Diabloii.Net Member

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    Stable 2 man team for new players?

    Hi,

    I've played alot of diablo2 before, but now I'm starting over with my cousin. He has never played it and neither of us have a higher level char to help us gear up.

    So I was wondering what would be a great combo of classes/builds to start with?
    I currently have a paladin and he has a sorceress, my main concern is that I will need really good gear as a paladin once we get to hell difficulty since I also intend to solo from time to time.

    Wouldn't a summoning necro be a way better choice? (though I've heard it can become boring very fast).

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. Sumsum

    Sumsum Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    A summoning necro is really good. Remember, if you get bored you can respecc to pick other skills.

    I would really suggest you to pick up a necro instead, using skeletons as a wall and building bone walls while your sorceress friend bombs them all.

    Your paladin can do fine, just pick defensive talents and get max block/use a 3/4 socketed shield and gem Sol on them for reduced damage taken, till you get your gear.
    But sorceress is kinda meh. Youll fight lots of immune monsters.
    Maybe he could... start a necromancer for poison and bone skills and life tap?=D

    Necromancer is like the best support class for team play.

    Hope it helped you out, i dont think so... keep it for yourself =D
     
  3. SnickerSnack

    SnickerSnack Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    A paladin will be fine. If you are willing to do some Nightmare Countess runs, you will be able to make a decent weapon from runes. If you run NM Mephisto a couple hundred times, you'll get a nice pile of items (good for both characters) and you stand a good chance of landing a decent weapon.

    As sumsum pointed out, you can always respec to a different build. You might do well with a Fist of the Heavens pally since they also use Conviction which will help the sorc.

    Remember that with Holy Shield, paladins have no trouble reaching 75% blocking and fairly high amounts of defense, so you shouldn't have too much trouble playing the tank for your team. As I said, you can always make a good weapon, but if you're still concerned about finding a good weapon, you can play an elemental zealot (zeal + holy freeze/shock) since they don't need a high damage weapon.

    You might also consider playing a hammerdin (look for guides to these builds in the strategy forums), but then you'll be competing with the sorc for caster gear. I think it's a much better idea to play a non-caster character since your cousin is playing a caster. A barbarian could work very, very well given the crowd control skills that barbs get.
     
  4. Norrit

    Norrit Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    I would keep the paladin and try an avenger (vengeance + conviction) it works wonders with any sorc (the sorc will plow through everything) and it is an enjoyable character to play when you want to solo (however you should shy away from it if you just want to see things blowing up in groups: this is a one-at-a-time killing type of character). With nightmare countess runs you should be able to make a decent runeword weapon that will take you far.
     
  5. nurman

    nurman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    Sorceress wouldn't be a bad pair for a summoner. Enchant those skeletons for crazy damage and static hostiles down!
     
  6. fledgeling

    fledgeling Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    Frozen orb sorc + trab assasin
    In my opinion this is a best "start from scratch" team.
    You have nice damage from two different elemets and in my opnion, those builds are actually quite fun (even though you probably will be unable to have whirlwind on your assasin). Please note that in few areas you will rely a bit on the assasins shadow to be a "tank" - aka someone who takes the damage while you stand behind him and shoot orbs/put traps. Although act 2 mercenaries will help too.

    The problem with those classes is that in order to be good single player, one needs some gear (basically infinity polearm); and frozen orb is not THAT good in LOD.
    But Id say that those two builds are the most fun to play in two players; also there is some little challenge as you arent that super strong due to absurd vitality (but this is still very easy since you can kill everything).

    By palladin I assume you mean hammerdin; the argueably strongest PvM character in the game. They just kill everything with hammers, but arent that good for playing through the game, because the hammers simply have some blind spots and dont work that well in small passages. Although the concentration aura helps the mercenaries, so they do very well too.

    Skellymancers are incredibly slow + they are simply useless in hell unless you have at least some +skill gear (not to mention that you need much more to make them effecive; unless you have a cooperating palladin). Combo of hammerdin + summoner can be ok, but in my opinion would be incredibly boring (I have did the whole game using a necro alone and it took a lot of time with good items).

    Other alternatives would be wind druid + sorc.

    The person who recommended avenger pala obviously has no clue about the game. This class is simply bad and all you can do is just support your caster friend; especially with 0 gear.
    Barbarians also need some weaon to be semi decent at least.
     
  7. Norrit

    Norrit Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    FYI, I've made quite a few guardians (that is, beating hell baal on hardcore) using avenger paladin/sorc and avenger paladin/summoner necro combo, always untwinked (that means using nothing but whatever gear we find). You say summon necros are useless in hell and then claim someone else doesn't know crap about the game? Don't make me laugh. Summon necros can solo hell 100% naked relying only on skeletons + curses.


     
  8. Knarlfist

    Knarlfist Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    I wonder maybe if your different perspective on Skellymancers (arguably quite diff than the experiences of most of us), is due to the exact build/skill placement you used.

    There are variations to the build, and while some of them might be catering to playstyle, there are many variations that specifically aim to gain crazy killing speed.

    On the slow hand, you might have a Necro that relies solely on +skills, and uses his points on maxing Skeletons, maxing Mages, maxing Revives, and maxing a Golem /w synergies. In this case I would agree with you 100%... it might suit a certain player's playstyle, but it would be mind-numbingly slow. Safe and fun perhaps, but slow.

    Now on the fast hand, you can tighten up your skill allocation, only max Skeletons and synergy, no Mages & no (or one point) Revives, 1pt Golem and then rely on +skills, just 1pt in Curses (and perhaps rely on a weapon swap for Decrep), and then have a pool of spare points you can use for killing speed. Max Corpse Explosion, and get Bone Spear pumped up as hard as the excess skill points will allow.

    Pair this build with Insight on merc, and play very aggressively. Pound your Bone Spear non-stop to help get that first corpse, then refresh your Amp Dmg and clear the entire screen with CE. Necros that really know their class and know how to play, cannot be deemed in the same league as those Summoners we've all seen with 10 skellies 10 mages Revives everywhere and constantly trying to find more mobs to Revive (because the horrible skill doesn't last very long) and they sit there wondering why they've been sitting there trying to clear this section of a map for 15mins :(




    Edit: I played around a little on a calc to see what kind of point allocation you would be looking for, on this very tight build. I put in maxed Skelle/Mastery/CE, 1pt in Clay/Golem Mastery/Resist/Bone Armor/Teeth/Amp Dmg/Bone Spear, and then maxed Bone Prison and Bone Wall. After plugging in 10 to plus skills, it ended up being a 730dmg absorb Bone Armor and an almost 450dmg pure magic Bone Spear that is completely spammable with Insight on merc, and your Bone Spear ends up being low mana cost by choosing to up it's synergies instead (because those synergies also help with Bone Armor so it's more efficient this way).

    It's not perfect by any means, but between a Might Act2 Merc wielding let's say an Ethereal Thresher Insight (or CA,CV,GPA,GT) and spamming your Bone Spear, the first mob in a pack is gonna die very fast. And everyone that's ever truly played D2 for any length of time knows what a maxed CE cast on Amp'd mobs is gonna do to the screen in mere secs. BOOM.


     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2010
  9. fledgeling

    fledgeling Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    If you can get 10 plus skills after just starting untwinked (that other guy explained what it is), in a legit way; then good work. Tell me how to do it; does it mean you visit those shops?
    Also, if you actually claim to know things about necros, you'd know that concentration from pride is probably worth more than those +10 skills.
    After +25 skills and 3 auras (personally I use 2; dont like holding beast, but did some tests), skellymancers arent that slow actually. You dont even need to use any other aura than amp. But I dont expect someone starting to play the game to have such gear. This is ridiculous. So advise him a class that is actlually playable naked. Unless for you, definition of fun, is playing super-dave style (the guy who finished the game by having a naked amazon recast her valkirie). For me it is not fun.

    Avenger is in general a terribly slow class; and untwinked it is probably one of the worst classes, as it requires some decent gear to make it semi playable. His friend would have all the fun. Some form of conviction zealot would be better.. but for zeal you need a good weapon to make it work.. and you dont have one when you start.
    Being your friends merc (he kills all with orb, you just provide conviction), is not much fun IMO; also the char is terrible in general; without the friend he would have trouble doing much.



     
  10. Norrit

    Norrit Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    All you really need for any melee class (assuming you'll be using a shield and not a two-handed weapon) is life leech (cathan's ring works in a pinch, if you tell me you cannot have such a ring drop before the end of normal while killing all mobs then something is wrong and if on bnet people will give it for free), some crushing blow (there are a number of cheap runeword weapons and regular unique items that have it) and enough attack rating to actually hit the monsters. Cannot be Frozen is a necessity in Hell mode for soloing, but as a team is something you can do without.

    For avengers you really don't need the attack rating part because conviction drops enemies defenses to almost nothing so you need very little attack rating (pretty much whatever AR you get from vengeance works) so a crushing blow weapon works wonders. One could argue that conviction zealot would do the same job + use zeal to be a little faster killer, however they suffer with physical immune monsters as there is no guarantee that you won't run into one when soloing. I suppose a conviction zealot with 1-pt vengeance could work as well, I just like the prismatic damage. Sure you will not plow through everything like a hammerdin, but they are certainly not "slow" in my opinion.

    As for necros, all you gotta do is max the regular warrior skele and max corpse explosion for the radius, 1 point on golem / each relevant curse and you're set. There is nothing slow about killing one guy with 10+ skeletons and then going kaboom on whole rooms with a couple clicks (amp+CE). See, corpse explosion is such an insane skill because it does not rely on any +skills to be effective, and fire immune monsters will die all the same because amp damage reduces their physical resistances into the negatives and CE deals physical + fire damage

    But maybe the only thing missing here is your perception of what is a slow killer? so let me ask you, how fast is "FAST" killing for you? If you expect full geared sorceress-like speed where everything just die after .5 seconds spamming something, that is certainly not achievable going untwinked.
     
  11. Knarlfist

    Knarlfist Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    +10 to skills is supposed to be some hard accomplishment, and then in the same breath your bring up Pride Runeword? Let me pull you back to reality a little, since you are bringing up "item shops" where no one else is mentioning it, and at the same time talking about experience with Runewords I've never been rich enough to use (and you think I AM THE ONE visiting shops? wth).

    I have never owned a Pride. Or an Enigma. Or a Beast. Or any of those, solely because the highest rune I've ever seen drop is an Ohm. Yet, strangely enough since you called out my experience with Necros, I have played a Fishymancer every single ladder season I have played D2.

    +10 skills is hard? Wth... Necros can visit Atma immediately from Act1 Normal and find wands to enhance their skills. They can make easy runewords like White, Spirit in a simple Broadsword, and eventually perhaps make Spirit in a Monarch or make a Splendor. They can obtain many different common drop uniques that sell for a couple of pgems, that will enhance their +skills. Shrunken Heads drop all over the place, allowing customization of which skills to enhance.

    Whether you are talking about pure untwinked SP play, or Ladder Bnet where you can buy almost worthless super-common uniques like Ume's for just a couple pgems, there are options to gain quite a few points to your most important skills, if not to all of them.

    Gamble Amulets and Circlets every time you get an excess of gold. +3 Summon Tree amulet, +3 Summon Tree Circlet (or +2 all if you are super lucky), +1 Lore Helm if you are super desperate, +2 to all from Spirit Sword, +2 to all from Spirit Monarch (or perhaps a total of +3 skelle and +1 all from a Splendor Shrunken Head??), +1 from any number of cheap body armors like Spirit Shroud, Vipermagi, Que-Hegan's, Skullder's, etc.


    I really really wonder if someone like you that mentions Pride in the same breath as talking about item shops, has any clue whatsoever. Sounds more like you are trying to use transference of some of your own guilt regarding your buying from shops imo. Just from the simple blues and easy to farm runes/runewords I mentioned, I am counting an easy +9 skills. So here I am talking about blues, common uniques, super common runes like tal thul ort amn ral sol to make lower end runewords.... and YOU are mentioning things like Pride.

    It is I, good sir, that have to question if you actually know anything about Necros.
     
  12. SnickerSnack

    SnickerSnack Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    I've only made 3 fishymancers, but I found them to be very effective, even untwinked.

    Hmmm, rude and wrong.

    It isn't hard to make an Oath runeword, and Avengers make *very* good tanks, which would be a nice partner for a sorc. I do agree that it's not ideal since you largely end up supporting the caster, but to say it's "simply bad" hurts the credibility of the rest of your post.


    It's easy, as pointed out in an earlier post.

    Hmmm, more insults.

    Perhaps. Strong skellies make many bricks, starving skellies make few bricks, and dead skellies make none (erm, if you take my meaning). If you want your skellies to survive in hell, you're going to need some +skills. If you already have 10, then Pride is probably better than another 10, though.

    Besides, Obedience, which is easy to make, is very effective (better than Pride, imo).

    I thought they were "incredibly slow"?

    Hmmmmm, Dude says necros are good, I say no, necros need XYZ, then suggest he's an idiot for telling someone to play a necro without XYZ. Hmmmm. Strawman?

    No one said he should do that. :p

    Mostly agree. It's great fun if you're going solo or with another slow character, like a berserker.

    Voice of Reason is easy to make if you do some Countess runs. Sorry, but it really sounds like you don't play untwinked much and assume that characters are only viable if they are playable with either nothing or everything.


    Lastly, if you don't know what a fishymancer is, then I'd say you have a bit more to learn about necros (the guide is in the necro guide thread....first one in fact).


     
  13. nurman

    nurman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    Seriously, pride is one of the worst runewords you could use on a dessert (yup, with 2x S) merc, losing to reaper's, insight and infinity anyday.

    Back to the original topic, spirit sword, splendor shield (maybe even in a shrunken head), lore helm, some armor with + sks, some amulet with + sks brings you around to 5-7 sk points. Throw trang armor to the fray, maybe some +summoning circ and amulet and you will be sitting @ 13-15 sk points. Affordable? YES! Possible? YES! Attainable untwinked? HELL YES! People who tell you that "GET PRIDEZ & ENIGMAAP + SPIRIT 35 & some 20fcr 2k circ and a crafted 2/20 amulet and then make your charzzz" can go home / back to d2jsp.
     
  14. Knarlfist

    Knarlfist Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    I really didn't intend to be so harsh on fledgling, especially since I don't know for sure if he has ever used an item shop... for all I know he could have done his testing all in NL first, where it's fairly easy to accumulate high wealth that gets dumped after each Ladder season.

    TBH tho it just makes me suspicious when someone mentions using Pride, Beast, Enigma, etc and then also accuses others of visiting item shops. But as you can tell from the responses from me and others above, this is kind of what you get when you question the experience of others concerning their knowledge of Necromancers (or any specific aspect of D2). If you are gonna make light of what we are saying, then what YOU are saying better be logical and make some dang sense. So far, we aren't seeing much of that.
     
  15. fledgeling

    fledgeling Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    1. In my opinion pride is the best runeword for a necromancer, despite the irritating cold damage. It's better than 10 skillers. It's definitely better than reaper's. In fact when I read such posts, my brain melts. nurman WHY? GOD WHY do you recommend reaper's toll for a necromancer. It has cold damage, which doesnt really help. It has some chance of casting decreptify, which will override your amplify damage. And if you really like decreptify, you can cast it on your own since the chance is quite low anyway...

    If you like to teleport, insight is decent; but you could do an iron golem out of your insight... I believe that infinity is worse than pride - it only shines vs bosses due to the crushing blow, but you can get crushing blow from armor.

    2. Knarlfist: Avenger is a terrible class; probably one of the worst to start with. You can write thousands of words here just to try to cover up the bad piece of advice, but barely anyone plays them. I dont remember seeing many avengers on battle.net; in fact I dont think I have ever seen a single one (the few palladins with conviction I saw were auradins/fohers). They are just BAD. They attack one monster at a time. The OP, said he wanted to also play without his friend, did you even read his post? Did you advice him to go MF-ing with his auradin super-dave style (what a great way to MF!*)
    Even a tesladin would be better IMO; still bad; but at least going through nightmare, wouldnt be a nightmare, eh?

    3. Oath is not as easy to get as you write. Life works according to Murphy's laws, and you should expect a FAL rune from the hell forge. But let's assume that you got lucky and get some useful rune at hell forge and trade it for pul+mal. You need level 49 to use your oath. So you leveled to 49 (or so, I think that's the minimum for oath) using some bad sword purchased from charsi...?
    You also forget that oath requires a 4sock eth weapon - those in my opinion are quite hard to get, since oath isnt that popular.

    4. I dont know your play style guys, but I dont think that running countess with an avenger is any fun. That is a terribly slow class, that attacks one enemy at a time, with relatively low damage, unless you have some decent weapon, but this leads to this catch 22 that you MF for a good weapon because you dont have one, while it's hard to MF with 0 gear.

    5. It's funny how you cry about not having an enigma, and then give advice on making oath. Oath is hard to get when you start naked. Probably as hard for this guy, as getting enigma for you.

    6. Necromancers are very slow with bad gear; with +25 skills and 3 auras, they are still quite slow; especially when compared to the typical overpowered classes (not to mention those classes with similar overpowered gear). Obviously a person starting fresh, cant get those items easy; something that you fail to understand (that's why I wrote about shops..).

    7. Funny how you claim to know more about necromancers, when you simply fail in this thread with giving bad advice about a starting class. Hammerdin should have been recommended to him; as much as you might hate it. He wanted a paladin. And starts with no items. What's better?

    I was thinking of writing "no comments", but I will just give you a protip:
    I dont MF with summonmancer nor avenger. Also you can trade.

    *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm



     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
  16. Norrit

    Norrit Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    way to contradict yourself huh? Make up your mind: With +25 skills and 3 auras, either they are "quite slow" or "aren't that slow actually"; it can't be both. but let me go through your points one by one.

    So in your informed and "pro" opinion, Reaper's is bad (among other things) because of the cold damage. I'll give you that, it can shatter corpses which is the last thing you want as a summon necro. On the other hand, you point out yourself that Pride has the same issue. Honestly, I don't think level 16-20 concentration aura outweighs it. at all. While not an advocate of reapers myself, to say "reapers is bad because of cold damage" while simultaneously recommending Pride (which has cold damage as well) is a contradiction. Myself, I like Kelpie Snare for making boss fights a joke with all the slow + decrep going on.

    so if it's not on cattle.net it can't possibly be good right? Following that logic, the only class/build worth playing is a hammerdin (after all, that's all I see on bnet servers and meteorb sorcs), and if that's the case why bother posting here?

    With the rune drop rates increased, I've seen mal runes drop off of nightmare baal room, so shael pul mal lum are hardly "impossible" to find these days. As for the eth sword (or axe!) there is always cows to run. Like I said before, all you need as melee class is really some crushing blow, which can be obtained from runewords like strength (unless you think Amn + tir and a 2 socket weapon are impossible to find) and uniques like goblin toe. Any melee can get by with some crushing blow.

    yes, we get it, mfing with anything other than a hammedin with enigma and/or a sorc is boring; However he never asked for advice for a MF character, just a character that would bring a good contribution to a 2-man team who could also occasionally solo things. By soloing I understand being able to kill things, not farm bosses for drops.

    wrong. The runes for oath are very obtainable (at least as far as 1.13 patch is concerned), while enigma still remains quite a stretch

    You can't even decide yourself if necromancers are "not really slow" or "really slow" so how can you claim to know any better? As for him wanting a paladin with no items, hammerdin is pretty much "useless" in your OWN view because, well, mfing with no teleport just sucks, right?

    but then again, who in this thread said anything about MFing?


     
  17. nurman

    nurman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    I was talking about pride in general.


    For necromancers its insight / infinity all the way. The fact that pride has no build-in-on-weapon-ED sucks ALOT.

    For bow amas / most barbs / other classes that deal with PIs, reaper's toll is alot better than pride.


    Hammerdin is an okay starter, he just has to run countess / mephi for some decent + sks gear.

    Fishy (summoner) can run it thru naked pretty easily.



    Also oath is super easy to get, as said.

    Ofc, if you play on realms, you could get wealth fastest by farming flawlesses in late nm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
  18. wickedswami

    wickedswami Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    You guys do understand that all your bickering isn't helping the OP AT ALL, do ya?

    So, in stead of joining this useless discussion, here are some more ideas:

    I finished the game playing a trap assasin, accompanied by a fury/rabies druid. We could do almost everything on P8.
    The druid had bonesnap and upped it, which gives quite a nice weapon with a lot of CB

    I had some +gear from items and used firebomb to get rid of LELI (lightning enchanted, lightning immune) monsters because the wolf couldn't tank them.

    We died a few times, but it was hella fun.

    Right now i'm playing through with a windy druid and my mate is a light sorc. Everything dies superfast, even on P8. Currently in A4 NM, the only problem we had were those lightning shooting bastards that instagibbed us the first time because we weren't paying attention (no energy shield and no cyclone armor .. and we both had very low light res)

    gear is spirit(+2skills, 22vit, 35 (yay) FCR)+splendor(+1skills, 20%mf)+stealth(FCR, FHR, FRW)
    I got lucky and found a +1ele +2nado helmet. Sorc uses lore i think.

    gamble boots 'n gloves for resists/frw/etc.
     
  19. nurman

    nurman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    True.


    Also another combination that works would probably be just about any dual sorc combo (Forber + light would toast hell pretty easily... mmmmm, toast...).
     
  20. Knarlfist

    Knarlfist Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Stable 2 man team for new players?

    Why the heck is fledgling quoting my name, and then telling me his "opinions" about Avengers?

    Might be a good time to not only brush up on your lacking knowledge of D2 classes, but also your reading skills. All I have talked about in this thread is Fishymancers, I haven't mentioned Avengers even once.
     

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