SPTF Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Fabian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

I really don't think a Raven Claw's real market value is a Gul. I also don't think it was Mal back in 1.12a. Think about it, basically every single Raven Claw which has been offered for Gul (or Mal back then) has been sold in a matter of a day or two, as far as I know. Someone puts it up for trade, immediately there are people buying. The fact that you sold your 5 Raven Claws for Gul each without trouble doesn't imply a Raven Claw is worth a Gul; it implies it's worth more than that. If you had asked for Gul + Ist each, they might have sold just as easily. We'll never know.

The same has been true, to some extent, for many useful old-version items. Eth 4os/5os Berserker Axes and 1.07 LoH comes to mind immediately, but I think Raven Claw is the best example.
 

RobbyD

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

@Fabian: You may well be right, but I was already nervous enough asking for more than the listed value for them. It will have to be somebody else to test the value of that weapon.
 

ddkknoll

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

can i get a PC on this please?

Captain's Grand Charm of Strength
Grand Charm
Required Level: 42
Fingerprint: 0xa8db9c24
Item Level: 80
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+1 to Offensive Aura Skills (Paladin Only)
+6 to Strength
 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

First of all, for these questions, there is another thread. This one is to comment on frozzzen's guide.

In the right circumstances +6 Strength can be +18 Life on Captain's GC. However those are not very valuable in the first place. 20 Pgems, if you find a buyer.
 

Twoflower

Banned
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Also, drop ratio is relatively meaningless when considering trade value, so I'd go with a tweak on frozzzen's suggestion: 2.75 Lo = 2.5 Sur = 1.75 Cham = 1.5 Ber = 1.25 Jah = Zod. The reasons would be that 1) you can only do so much with Lo/Jah before they become trade/cube fodder, 2) multiple Sur/Cham have at least slightly more utility than "equivalent" cubed rune value, and 3) Zod is awesome.
I got this from a thread in the singleplayer section ( not the trade part ^^)

Do you guys agree on the prices ? I am looking to make myself a infinity, and i thought I would be miles off, but I have quite a few Vex'es lying around from recent trades that would certainly cube up to 3 or 4 Lo's.

Also why not include this in the price quide ?



 

frozzzen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Price guide is heavily outdated. Probably it's cause when I made it I did values according to cubing values - hence Tyrael's Might is worth Zod.

Probably it would be best to update it? There is some nice input in this thread already, but we would have to agree on some kind of rune valuation.

Ideas would be:

Bump P&B skillers into tier 1 for sure (not so sure about trap skillers)
Send PCombat skillers in tier 2.
Reduce value of Fine small charms of Vita by 30% or more.

And we need new valuation system for some higher end items. It says that Tyrael is worth Zod, but people have different preference on runes so it would need some general rune valuation.

Any input would be helpful. Now I have some time to work on guide while I'm on winter break.
 

NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Twoflower: If people agreed on prices, I wouldn't have posted to begin with. :p It's pretty arbitrary really, and that was essentially how I felt the rune exchange would eventually settle to being. The best thing to do would be just to try. Before cubing up your runes, you could, in theory, just throw up a thread and see if there are multiple people looking to trade Sur for Lo, or something similar. In the [somewhat unlikely] case you can get enough for 'Infinity', then of course you would do it. :)
 

Fabian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Translate rune values into an arbitrary point system. This is something I've felt we should have done for quite some time now, the old "cubing up" way of valuing runes is just worthless nowadays since people don't cube runes. Like this, for what Nagisa suggested 2 posts up:

Lo = 1
Sur = 1.1
Cham = 1.57
Ber = 1.83
Jah = 2.2
Zod = 2.75

Start with a lower "base", that is, perhaps Mal should be assigned 1 point, and put corresponding values on each rune. Something like this:

Mal = 1
Ist = 1.5
Gul = 2.25
Vex = 3.5
Ohm = 5.25
Lo = 8
Sur = 9
Ber = 14.5
Jah = 17.5
Cham = 10.5
Zod = 17.5
10pgems = 0.2
100pgems = 3
10 Ral = 0.25
100 Ral = 3.5
(Um = 0.6, Pul = 0.4, Lem = 0.2)

Honestly, this doesn't look half bad to me. Rune values up to Ohm/Lo is basically previous rune value * 1.5, which is probably not fully accurate in every case, but I think it's reasonable. Going by cubing value, like the old days, is almost definitely inaccurate imo, in any case. Then from Lo and up, I'm going close to Nagisa's suggesion, which I think is pretty reasonable. Once this is established, we can easily transfer item values to this system, based on how we valued them in the old valuing system.

The numbers I suggested might be off, and do chime in, but I think it's semi important we can sort of agree on some base values. Obviously, just like previous methods of valuation, including the old cubing stuff and the hybrid stuff frozzzen introduced with this thread, these values certainly aren't set in stone and can change over time, or certain people might value certain stuff higher/lower and etc etc. The bartering part of the SPTF certainly wouldn't disappear :)

But I think this needs to happen. Let's hear your opinions.

Edit: I changed the Cham and Zod valuations, they were higher originally as I went very close to Nagisa's suggesion. It seems to me most people (including myself) value Cham and Zod lower than Nagisa, frozzzen and Pyro (who if I recall correctly are the 3 main supporters of those runes' high values), but obviously time will tell. We haven't seen many Zod trades yet.
 
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Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Translate rune values into an arbitrary point system. This is something I've felt we should have done for quite some time now, the old "cubing up" way of valuing runes is just worthless nowadays since people don't cube runes.
I agree, in principle. But there are problems associated with it. Like in any economy without currency, the most sought after goods (say, like gold in middle ages) take the form of currency. The problem now is, the runes lost the currency-like properties that were there from cubing.

Your idea of "points system" is basically introducing a currency into SPTF. The problem is, as long as it's not official (and I'm certain it will never be), it's not going to work too well.

Honestly, this doesn't look half bad to me. Rune values up to Ohm/Lo is basically previous rune value * 1.5, which is probably not fully accurate in every case, but I think it's reasonable. Going by cubing value, like the old days, is almost definitely inaccurate imo, in any case. Then from Lo and up, I'm going close to Nagisa's suggesion, which I think is pretty reasonable. Once this is established, we can easily transfer item values to this system, based on how we valued them in the old valuing system.
I very much disagree with the 1.5. Before the madness of 1.13c, the multiplier was 1.75, and I think it still applies to runes Lo and lower. There was a trade like this just last week I think.

Lo=Ohm+Vex+Gul
Ohm=Vex+Gul+Ist
Vex=Gul+Ist+Mal

On the other hand we had

Mal = 45 PGems
Ist = 70 PGems

recently, too. I'm too lazy to check how that fits into your calculations, to be completely honest.

Now, as for how runes Lo/Sur/Ber/Jah/Cham/Zod are related to each other, there are disagreements.

At least we can certainly agree that
Ber = 2*Sur
Zod = 2*Cham
(that is to say, almost no one will ever want to trade down from Zod, or Ber; those are the "target runes")

What is unclear is 3 different value-relations
(A) Lo <-> Sur
(B) Ber <-> Jah
(C) Zod <-> Jah

(A) Lo <-> Sur
There are many reasons why I think that Lo is very valuable. Chances of most monsters (that are run for runes) to drop a Lo are lower (or similar) than a monster dropping a Sur. On the other hand, LK /p7 has 2*Lo, 13*Sur, 3*Ber. I'd estimate that 15-25% of runes in the forum are from LK, so it's not without impact. Of course Ohm and Vex can count as 0.5 and 0.25 of Lo, respectively, but that doesn't change the fact that Lo and Sur are almost in a balance drop-wise.

Lo gives 'Grief', the most powerful weapon in the game (possibly with exceptions, but that's not the point of all this). A weapon which is, incidentally, used to run the Council, to get more runes. Which is why I think that two things are happening at once:
(1) Lo is a rune very much in demand.
(2) Sur is as easy to get as Lo.

Trading Lo=Sur is easy, and I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing Lo=Sur+Gul soon, or something like that.

(B) Ber <-> Jah
There were quite a few trades of Ber=Jah, but most of them not that recent. Recently people started to have problems exchanging their Ber's for Jah's (reported in the PC thread). I got Jah=Sur+Lo, but that goes back to what I wrote above, that Lo might be becoming more valuable than Sur.

I think, over time, people got their 'Enigma's and 'Infinity's and now they are looking more towards things like 'Faith', 'Ice', etc. which need Jah's. And since some part of runes in the forum come from LK, where Jah doesn't drop, there is some push towards appreciation of the price of Jah vs. Ber. Anyway between Jah = Ber to Jah = Ber+Sur wouldn't surprise in the next 2-3 months.

(C) Zod <-> Jah
I know Nagisa, frozzzen and Pyro all say Zod is great, etc. That doesn't change the fact that I hadn't seen either of them trade runes that high anytime recently. It's what they think things "should be" based on their perception of usefulness.

Let's be honest, guys, your perception of usefulness is different than other people's. You're (or were, Oh Generous One ;)) rich, have all the other runewords that you might want. You played with 'Enigma', 'Infinity', 'Faith' and these things aren't something special anymore, TO YOU. On the other hand an ATMA-Zod-bugged 1.07 ethereal claw as a base, or an ATMA-Zod-bugged eth Tomby of the highest rolls, those thing are exciting. And, objectively, they are. But also, they are niche.

As long as people who claim Zod to be awesome don't post threads like

"Here are my Jah's and Ber's, GIVE ME ALL YOUR Zod's AND Cham's!!!!"

I'm gonna look at all those claims with some skepticism.

I have seen Cham=Sur trades. I haven't seen Zod=Jah+Jah, or even Zod=Ber+Sur trades. For now, in my mind Zod = 2*Cham = Ber. Which might be worth less than a Jah, yes.

The numbers I suggested might be off, and do chime in, but I think it's semi important we can sort of agree on some base values.
I simply don't think you can close all this in terms of simple numbers system. There's too little volume in the market for things to be truly settled anytime soon. I think some form of what we write here should go into the guide. Hopefully in a much clearer form.


--Greebo


 

Fabian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

"Your idea of "points system" is basically introducing a currency into SPTF. The problem is, as long as it's not official (and I'm certain it will never be), it's not going to work too well."

I don't really know what you mean by "official", but runes are and have always been a currency in the SPTF, whether official or not. The question is how they are valued, in relation to themselves and to other items. Before 1.13, it was simple, as cubing was the way of obtaining higher runes, and you could definitely say what a Mal was worth in relation to an Ist. Now, it's not so clear, but that doesn't mean the relation doesn't exist, or should exist.

I don't think it matters if you say "well Sur is worth 9 points and Lo is worth 8 points, so I'm willing to swap my Sur for your Lo, maybe you could throw in a little something though" or "Sur and Lo are valued about the same, let's do a swap if you could throw in a little something". Using a point system just makes it easier to compare things imo. It's pretty much always been in effect anyway; before 1.13, Mal was 2 points and Gul was 8 points. Fortitude was 64 points and Death's Fathom was perhaps 16-64 points, depending on roll. It just wasn't stated like this, because the value system was intuitive enough. Now, it's not, which is exactly why formalizing this is important and useful.

Look at frozzen's guide. It's more or less based on the old rune cubing system, and you can easily say that x is worth y points and a is worth b points, by converting a rune name into a number of points. Then, this base valuation can change based on individual traders' preferences, competition between sellers/buyers, or any number of factors. This has been the case forever, before bassen's price guide and before frozzzen's price guide. There's no reason we can't still have it like this, just because the relative values between runes have changed.

Edit: I guess this: "The problem now is, the runes lost the currency-like properties that were there from cubing." is the point we disagree entirely on. Don't you agree runes are still used as currency, let's say in the last 3-4 months? I think looking at frozzzen's price guide, or pretty much any trade involving runes, very clearly points out that there's an expectation that a certain rune holds a certain value (like calling a Sur "trade fodder", etc)

Edit2: Sorry for editing, but I want to add this just to be as clear as I can:

"Your idea of "points system" is basically introducing a currency into SPTF. The problem is, as long as it's not official (and I'm certain it will never be), it's not going to work too well."

The currency is already introduced, and always has been (for as long as I've been around anyway). Runes are currency, period (if anyone else disagrees with this, let me know. Maybe I've been misunderstanding the SPTF completely for 3½ years). A point system would just be a way of making those values more clear. It wasn't necessary when the value was Rune x = 1, Rune x+1 = 2, Rune x+2 = 4, etc, since that was a point system in itself, but now it is.
 
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NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

I'm inclined to agree with you for how things are right now, but I was more looking at the direction things would likely trend towards in the future.

Lo vs Sur: At a certain point, Lo becomes relatively useless. After giving away multiple 'Grief' and having as many as four 'Fortitude', I can attest to this. You could say that this is from a rich person's perspective, but traders will only continue to get wealthier, and with runes dropping more commonly than arrows this patch, it is not impossible that Lo will not be sought quite as heavily in the future, while Sur will always be comparatively more useful, if only for niche RWs or cubing purposes. Hence, my 2.75 Lo = 2.5 Sur.

Zod: Just so we're clear here, I don't have any use for Zod, since I detest ATMA bugging and 2H melee weapons. Similar to my above comment though, I believe that people will eventually progress to the point where niche things that use Zod are slightly more desirable than currently. There is also the fact Zod is significantly harder to get than other runes, which could affect value if the market becomes saturated with Ber/Jah/etc. in the long run. Not really a concern for the present though, of course, so I agree with Fabian's adjustment for now.
 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

@Fabian: we are saying similar things, but disagree what a currency IS:

I hear what you're saying. And I partially disagree. In trades where the value of items is up to 1.5*Lo, runes are used as currency. With trades of higher value, that is no longer the case. People disagree about what Zod, Jah, Ber, Cham, Sur are in terms of Lo and lower.

That is not to say that people don't pay in runes in such trades. That doesn't make HR's a currency anymore. If I trade 50MF Travs for a perfect Poison Facet, it doesn't make either of them currency.

The point of currency is that (at least almost) everyone agrees to how much a dollar/Euro is worth at any given point in time. On this forum there is currently agreement about how much PGems and runes up to Lo are worth. There is a disagreement about how much Sur-Zod HR's are worth. Hence, they are not currency anymore.

There is a simple solution to this: once the price goes high enough, price stuff in terms of number of Lo's (in the guide). The old cubing values works up to Lo just fine, in my opinion. In my book:

Mal = 1 point
Ist = 2 points
Gul = 4 points
Vex = 8 points
Ohm = 16 points
Lo = 32 points

when it comes (and this is important) to pricing other items using runes as currency. That isn't to say that you can get 32 Mal's for a Lo. It's just that in an auction, Lo would be worth 32 times more than a Mal, for most people. This works fairly well, and I don't think people would disagree. Lo beats Ohm+Vex+Gul in an auction.

Of course in a rune-to-rune trade you'd need to "pay a little" for breaking the rune down. Which is why I disagree with the *1.5 approach that you took. For the purposes of settling on a price of something, Lo=2*Ohm=4*Vex=...=32*Mal

---------
When it comes to pricing higher runes, in my opinion, depending on whom you ask:
Sur = 28-36 points (about a Lo)
Ber = 56-72 points (2*Sur)
Jah = 56-90 points (1-1.25 *Ber)
Cham = 28-54 points (1-1.5 *Sur)
Zod = 56-108 points (2*Cham)

And here lies the problem: since there is no common agreement about the prices of HR's, at the end of the day how some of us value Zod may vary by 100%. Strangely enough, we pretty much agree on how much a 30% DF is worth (more or less). I mean, we might say different thing in runes, but once we go back to points, we will be in agreement.

There's just no common currency to put it in. Which is why I say HR's lost the role of currency, and when in it comes to really high-end trades, we're in a bartering system right now already. Which, by the way, I think is fine.

--Greebo

EDIT:
Let me elaborate on that last paragraph: I think the guide should have prices in terms of points (maybe for simplicity Vex=1 point, or something). And also an explanation that prices of HR's vary in terms of points in certain intervals, depending on whom you talk to. Same way as prices for high end items vary.

EDIT2:
@Nagisa:
Your "in the long run" approach assumes no influx of new players. And I don't think that's accurate. Not everyone who leaves holds a giveaway, and not everyone wants certain items to be from a giveaway. It's been a year and people still want Lo runes, despite how many 'Grief's had been given away.

Also, this inflation (reduction of value of 'Grief', etc.) applies to other items just as well. And I don't think it happens at different rates.

--Greebo
 

NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Greebo: Your argument assumes that new players enter with relatively limited wealth. The market for Lo isn't and will probably never be dead. That wasn't my point. Rather, the relative demand for them will naturally decrease over time, and the utility of Lo will decrease significantly faster than certain higher runes, as the potential uses for Lo are comparatively fewer.

I more or less agree that there isn't a set currency though, and that prices for [not only high items, but] all items fluctuate from person to person as well as depending on time. It was something I wrote about even in the old price guide, and it seems frozzzen has covered it in his guide as well. Having said that, I honestly believe that a 30% Death's Fathom should be worth at least 5x Ber, that a Zod should be worth at least 2x Jah, and that 95% of SUs should be worth 1 perfect gem. My differing opinion, however, doesn't necessitate either 1) removing the items in question from the guide, or 2) applying my evaluations to the values in the guide. The point of the guide is to establish a reasonable starting point from which people who do not have personally established values for items can base their decisions. With how commonly runes are tossed around, it'd be counterintuitive NOT to include at least an estimate of sorts of their value, even if it does end up being somewhat similar to your final list with its largely fluctuating numbers.
 

frozzzen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

I speak for myself only when I tell you that you won't see
"Here are my Jah's and Ber's, GIVE ME ALL YOUR Zod's AND Cham's!!!!"
Just because I could use 2 -3 Chams and 2 Zod (without counting ATMA hax) runes this very moment doesn't mean that I'll just give Ber for Cham. It is possible if I'm in rush and get two contionus Ber drop that I'll just go with "what the heck I really need that Cham"and trade it that way.

But if general opinion would be that Jah/Ber = 2 Cham I don't see reason why I would get only one. it's common sense :)

Fabian's currency system seems like good idea but it would be impossible to introduce point like currency in SPF. It would be good way of having definite values but there isn't such thing as definite values. Those rune values will vary from person to person and it will always be that way.

I honestly believe that a 30% Death's Fathom should be worth at least 5x Ber
Make that 3 and you sold it to me :p
Zod should be worth at least 2x Jah
Here I don't agree. I don't see where this is coming from especially from person that hates ATMA and Tomb Reavers :scratchchin:

The thing is that we (I for sure) don't know how hard it was to get Lo in earlier patches. I'm talking about period with 1.11 and 1.12 - you had to do HF rushes to get those runes. Average 2.5 hours for ~Gul. Now let's say that we are aiming for Grief (8 Gul runes). And now imagine that time spent on council. Now if we want to get enigma... just look at invested time. I bet I would have Last Wish with equal time spent in 1.13c.

I'm not really sure if those are exact numbers but chance of Pindle dropping Ist rune in 1.12a are smaller then finding Ber in 1.13c.
Thing is that people don't put enough effort in finding them. I think Nagi proved it last MFO where he didn't even hunt for runes. I think there was enough runes for making Last Wish and they were found only in a week.

Point of story: runes are overvalued !
 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Rather, the relative demand for them will naturally decrease over time, and the utility of Lo will decrease significantly faster than certain higher runes, as the potential uses for Lo are comparatively fewer.
I'm certainly not arrogant enough to say it won't happen. What you're saying is very plausible. But it concerns the future. And I cannot help but ask: why hasn't it happened yet? And more importantly, why has the value of Lo appreciated over the past 6 months, not depreciated?

It might well be that in the future what you're saying will indeed happen and then Sur-Zod will appreciate in the number of points. For me, a much more interesting question is this: will there be time when Lo loses value vs. lower runes? Because if that happens, it will be a bigger mess in terms of finding a "value".

Either way, I agree that you very well might be right when it comes to the future. But I think my arguments work at the moment.

95% of SUs should be worth 1 perfect gem.
Indeed. It's the same for me. But I still trade Occy for 20 PGems, and I don't see you selling them for 1 Pgem either.

SPTF players have stashes full of items. But we also have certain idea of how much items "should be" worth. This forum works because once a new player asks for an Occulus and I offer it for 20 PGems (though let's be honest, I don't really need PGems, and I have 10+ more Occy's in my stashes), no one else will post saying "I will sell it for 15!", and "I will sell it for 3!".

I'm not sure I have a point in all this. I guess I'm just trying to point out that in a lot of cases, this is all gentlemen's agreement of sorts (no offense to the EU's of this forum).

The point of the guide is to establish a reasonable starting point from which people who do not have personally established values for items can base their decisions. With how commonly runes are tossed around, it'd be counterintuitive NOT to include at least an estimate of sorts of their value, even if it does end up being somewhat similar to your final list with its largely fluctuating numbers.
Agreed. But I think the values in points for runes Sur-Zod should be intervals, not set values.

--Greebo


 

Fabian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

"On this forum there is currently agreement about how much PGems and runes up to Lo are worth."

"The old cubing values works up to Lo just fine, in my opinion."

Considering how very strongly I disagree with the second sentence, I guess the first sentence isn't right either :)

I don't think there's a distinction between lower runes and higher runes (see above). Either you count them all as currency, or you don't count any as currency. Which one you choose is probably more academic than anything else.

A point system is a guide to how things are generally valued. It's nothing in itself; it's just a way of expressing the thoughts about values on the forum. You realize what you've been arguing about for some time, the relative value of high runes, is a point system, right?

It's a shortcut, to make it easier for people to agree on values. The same was true for bassen's price guide, and for frozzzen's price guide. Neither of those things were set in stone, just like a point system isn't set in stone but just a guide to sum up general thoughts. That's when bartering comes in, and that has always been the case for any guide/suggestion on this forum.

The difference between today and "the old days" is that now, bartering isn't only for runes vs non-runes, it's also for runes vs other runes. This difference doesn't make the need for a price guide smaller, if anything I think there's a greater need for it. I agree we're in a bartering system, and I agree that's good, but I'm saying we've always been*, and now the need for a price guide is greater than ever. I think part of where out disagreement comes from might be that you put more faith in the price guide(s) than I do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're saying if a price guide isn't objectively "correct" or "accurate", then it's not worth having. I'm saying the opposite, and I've never considered bassen's or frozzzen's guides to be anything but a starting point for a bartering system. Or put another way, I disagree that we pretty much agree on how much a 30% DF is worth, or essentially any item. I think it's good to have general thoughts summed up in some kind of price guide though, because it provides a shortcut to bartering. This is what a point system would be, nothing more.


*Except specifically for rune vs rune exchanges back in the day, which made the rune value system so very easy and intuitive, as I've mentioned in earlier posts.
 

Fabian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

I'm scared I'm being misunderstood, so here's my point summed up in a few sentences:

A point system isn't intended to be a currency converter. At no point will there be a store exchanging 5.25 Vex runes for 3.5 Ohm runes. A point system is exactly the same thing bassen's and frozzzen's price guides have been up until now; a shortcut/starting point to agreeing on trades. It's exactly the same thing, it's just expressed in arbtirary points instead of (nowadays) arbitrary rune values.
 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

I don't think I said a points system was a bad idea. If I did, I didn't mean to.

In any case, I'm just pointing out, that with any attempt to price anything in any economy, you need to have some basis.

Let me say what I want with an example:

You disagree that Lo=32*Mal, for the purposes of pricing. The problem is, with your *1.5 scenario, you ended up with Lo=8*Mal.

I just sold a +11/-19 Griffon's for about a Lo. I have 10 Mal's. Do you think I'd be able to buy a +11/-19 Griffon's for it? I doubt that. I'd have certainly not sold it for 10 Mal's.

EDIT: Better example: in your rune-ladder Lo=3 Gul. I wouldn't sell my Griffon's for 3 Gul, much rather taking a Lo.

At the end of the day, at least in principle, if you have 3 items worth 4 points each according to the guide, you would want most people to at least agree in principle that they are worth, more or less, about the same as one item worth 12 points. Otherwise, what's the point of the guide?

Hence, you need some sort of basis. And that I think is hard to come up with.

----------

I certainly don't think that:
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're saying if a price guide isn't objectively "correct" or "accurate", then it's not worth having."

I just think you're making a mistake trying to set values of HR's "in stone", per your proposed ladder of values. I think it only work till Lo, and the way I said.

As long as you can still cube down
Vex=Gul+Ist+Mal
Ohm=Vex+Gul+Ist
Lo=Ohm+Vex+Gul
(and one of those trades happened recently, don't remember which), the *2 values from the times of HF rushing are still intact in my opinion. Moreover, people are cubing Mal-Ohm up. There was a post about in the IFT in the last couple of days, someone cubed Ohm's. People send 2*Gul as a Vex, without even mentioning it.

So, yeah, we will strongly disagree about the value of Lo in terms of lower runes.

I think, for the moment (!), the old rules apply for Mal-Lo. And I think that should form a basis for points system.

I also think that assigning set value of points for runes Sur-Zod is a mistake, it should be done in intervals.

--Greebo
 
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NagisaFurukawa

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

frozzzen: It is just because I have found only 1 Zod, but anywhere from 2 to 10+ runes Lo through Cham each. Drop ratio is affecting my perception on value, but like said earlier, this does not have bearing on what price guide should say. :)

And more importantly, why has the value of Lo appreciated over the past 6 months, not depreciated?
I think Fabian and his guide are at least partially to blame for this. :badteeth: Either way, I never said Sur will be significantly greater in value (11:10 is meaningless difference), but just that even though Lo is much rarer and has greater utility in the foreseeable future, Sur has greater long term usefulness, plus there is always the somewhat common case, given how comparatively common the rune is, of a person single Sur away from bigger or better things.

I don't see you selling them for 1 Pgem either.
I used to do this a lot, and it used to be much more common practice just in general, but there came this thread about how it was just subverting the no giveaway rule as well as maybe ruining potential trades for new players. :badteeth:

I think the values in points for runes Sur-Zod should be intervals, not set values.
No problem with this really. Like my very first post says, rune exchange rate that I wrote is only just my opinion on how things will get to become, not necessarily how things will be or how things are in eyes of others.

EDIT: As far as most recent argument, whole versus sum of parts is not very fair argument. Can I sell 50x Tal's Guardianship for Lo rune? Probably not, but if I break it down and slowly sell to individuals, I can accumulate similar amount of wealth over uncertain period of time.


 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

Just that even though Lo is much rarer and has greater utility in the foreseeable future, Sur has greater long term usefulness, plus there is always the somewhat common case, given how comparatively common the rune is, of a person single Sur away from bigger or better things.
As I said, it may happen. It might not. Let's wait and see, worry about it then... Changing the guide to current realities is hard enough right now, without worrying about what will happen. In my opinion, anyway.

I used to do this a lot, and it used to be much more common practice just in general, but there came this thread about how it was just subverting the no giveaway rule as well as maybe ruining potential trades for new players. :badteeth:
I am a little ashamed about that one (and it was ages ago), but in my defense, it was very frustrating at the time. And personally, I think the forum is better that way. You may of course choose to disagree.

EDIT: As far as most recent argument, whole versus sum of parts is not very fair argument. Can I sell 50x Tal's Guardianship for Lo rune? Probably not, but if I break it down and slowly sell to individuals, I can accumulate similar amount of wealth over uncertain period of time.
For the record, I added this edit after your post I think:

EDIT: Better example: in your rune-ladder Lo=3 Gul. I wouldn't sell my Griffon's for 3 Gul, much rather taking a Lo.
See, there's a difference between 50 Tal's Armor's and 3 of something. Which is why my post compared 3 items for 4 points and 1 item for 12 points. We are a somewhat small community, and as soon as you go into high numbers (like 50 armors), it becomes nonsense, but the guide should work for 3 of something.

--Greebo


 
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