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Spice up mana management in d3!

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by mywrisoicy, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. mywrisoicy

    mywrisoicy Diabloii.Net Member

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    Spice up mana management in d3!

    First i wanna say that i hope this isn't posted somewhere else, although to tell the truth i would be amazed that something similar wasn't because of its relevance to the game. But bear with me and read this angle.

    So blizzard says they want an innovative game, and we know that they like their games to push the boundaries of whatever genre its for. They have done this by evolving basic gameplay elements in many games. Examples: Starcraft is one of the first 3 race rts if not the very first. Diablo is the first true action rpg. Warcraft is the first rts with rpg elements. etc...

    Health and mana are a basic but fundamental element in an RPG (To a wizard mana is pretty much his life itself):yes:. Mana strategy has to be evolved in order for diablo 3 to escalate to the mountaintops of rpgs (or arreat summit) once again and stand alone (...battling the new 3 headed diablo or tyreal if he got tired of being all good and stuff, prob both:thumbup:).

    But anyways!
    Item mods (+energy, +mana, +regen) just don't cut it for the new blizzard ARPG and neither do regenerate X mana or even potions

    These ways of gaining mana i think should only be complementary to other strategies that are filled with peril, critical thinking, strategy, timing and skillful use of well... skills. Mana management should be active, not passive by the means of skills and mods (Think action! The mana globe should be going up and down like a seesaw.). Also i do not agree that you should have huge enough mana and mana regen to be able to constant cast. Mana is meant to be a challenge that if surpassed through intelligence grants massive power. (That is why barbarians don't have mana!, they hit everything but the books).

    There are some interesting ways to gain mana already in the game. What are your opinions of these skills?:
    Wizard
    Mana recovery (Mana globes)
    Static charge (convert damage taken into mana)
    Greater mana (increases mana pool by X%)
    Efficient magic (lowers mana cost)

    Witch doctor
    Soul Harvest

    Is current mana management provided by skills and mana orbs in the game satisfactory? fast paced? varied? thought provoking? Because it seems to me that there is too much passive mana management and not enough active management.

    Do you guys think that mana should be more important and difficult to manage than in d2? And if so to what level?

    Should there be more or better ways or skills to manage mana?

    What about mana regeneration without any passives at all? just skills, and/or maybe a unique rune socket-able to one skill per character or per tree, or maybe other active method?

    I wonder how the diablo community feels about mana management and its importance in d3
    I fear that it is not enough at the moment.:scratchchin:
     
  2. Funkopotamus

    Funkopotamus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    What do you mean "active mana management"?
     
  3. konnu

    konnu Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    Not sure about this. Traditional mana regen is working pretty good... atleast in Diablo series where regen is so massive. I guess we'll get rogue type energy and some other with the new classes. Witch Doctor and Wizard should differ a bit from eachother when it comes to mana.

    Witch Doctor could have more skills like Sould Harvest which would do dmg and return mana. Mana leech, Pets could drain mana for you...

    Atleast one class with traditional mana should be left in the game.
     
  4. KillaMike

    KillaMike Banned

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    have no ideas whats wrong with mana reg in d2. seriously.

    if you talking about LOD, end game sorc doesnt have that much of problems with mana. use pots, thats why you got them.

    pvp sorc... she got so much +skills that warmth gives massive mana reg and you dont need mana pots as such.

    pvm, lidless is such a nice thing, like mana per kill, combine with silk's and thats 10 mana per kill, like why you need mana then? teleporting? and mana there is much better, cause pot > insight merc and that means in hc mana burners dont annoy as such :whistling:

    any way, look at fury, and people from last d3 demo said that mana reg is well balanced
     
  5. Jephery

    Jephery Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    The thing about mana in Diablo II is that it is a complete non-issue for the most part once you hit Nightmare, since by then you have a decent sized mana pool just by level and can buy the best mana pots from vendors. Right now it mostly serves to annoy you at low levels and to screw you over when you get hit by a unique pack with mana burn.

    I mean, mana might as well not even be in Diablo II.
     
  6. Drakk

    Drakk Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    I like the +X mana per kill mod on items I think it serves its purpose quite well. Another way to be able to get mana if you were to run out (and not have any pots handy) is to have a close ranged physical attack that would "pull the essence" out of the monster giving you some mana. This would be a last resort to recover mana since spellcasters don't usually take to close quarter combat. Just an idea. Anyone else have an idea of a different way to get mana from mobs?
     
  7. sorcererbob

    sorcererbob Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    I'm inclined to agree with the OP, mana in D2 is a problem. The same solution exists for every class (and to some extent the problem exists with the cheap Insight runeword). I'd prefer more active mana management for spellcasting characters; skills for a wizard which I would enjoy seeing include a skill which causes fast regen for 30 seconds for a rampage, and another that gives you instant full mana, both with significant cooldowns, and for mana regen normally to be quite slow to precipitate players using these skills.
     
  8. Panzerschwein

    Panzerschwein Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    I always hated leeching. I'd prefer it if casters had an ability they could use to gather mana. You hold down the button for this skill, and so long as it's held down your character throws his hands in the air and starts rapidly regenerating mana. During this time you can't move or attack, so you need to retreat or have someone protecting you.
     
  9. KillaMike

    KillaMike Banned

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    that sounds like Never Winter Nights idea of sleep... i hated that idea.

    beside, D2C dont have rune words, and you know what? no one cares about insight there for some reasons...

    beside, mana leech weapon sorc... you being sarcastic? come on, hell dificulty, you fighting diablo, try to hit him with your 500ar ( if it ever gets this high in 1st place ) to mana leech 15 mana... sorry, but this idea is pathetic, beside, act 1 with low levels could be dont with normal attack. and when you hit lvl 11, get 2 cathan pieces and you got 15-20 fire dmg, enought for act 2 now... so you dont even use mana :whistling:


     
  10. Grumpy Old Wizard

    Grumpy Old Wizard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    No, a spell casting class has to have constant access to mana. A wizard unless specificly designed to be a melee wizard is not going to be able to stand toe to toe with monsters. Mana replenishment the way it is, through skills, regeneration from total mana, and globes is fine. I hope the wizard is not going to have to burn skill points in the mana globe skill. That would be really really bad. I think the whole mana globe system is going to be hard to balance for all the different classes and builds.

    The mere fact that there are 4 skills for mana management for the wizard makes me afraid wizards are going to have to burn tons of skill points just on the passive mana skills in order to be able to cast enough spells.
     
  11. Galtrovan

    Galtrovan Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    Yes, LOD pretty much ruined the Energy stat. There is never a reason to put points into it -- ever.



     
  12. IGotGreasyBalls

    IGotGreasyBalls Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    i too would like to see some active mana management. Then i have to plan more and i like strategy. Less passives and more active skills. Of course some regeneration is needed, but to be really effective you would have to think twice about your mana.
     
  13. lazylink

    lazylink Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    I think that if the skills are cool enough, you won't really care if mana management is boring. Blizzard should be focusing more on making the skills really interesting to use rather than making mana management interesting.
     
  14. Funkopotamus

    Funkopotamus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    They had the same thing in the Alien vs Predator games (not based on the movie) where you could refill your mana by pulling out this badass arc lightning orb thing. Of course I loved it because you do not disagree with a Predator.



     
  15. GoldenBird

    GoldenBird Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    I think you're right about needing more active mana management skills. It's too easy in D2 because you can just spam spells, and then drink a pot when you're dry, but if you actually had to use tactics to get it it would be more interesting.
     
  16. Drakk

    Drakk Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    The mana leech I was speaking about is only close ranged so you have some difficulty in getting your mana back. You wouldn't need AR for it, cause that would be rediculous.. I only said close range physical attack because it wouldnt cost mana to use. As a caster you don't want to be in close, so you are forced to face a challenge in order to get mana if you need to.

    I think its a much better idea than being able to cast spells to instantly replenish all of your mana. Where's the challenge in that?
     
  17. DrImp

    DrImp Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    I agree, mana management in D1 and D2 was boring. Worse, it didn't enhance gameplay, it just felt like a imposition.

    I think Blizzard have already realised this, and are doing their best to fix the problem for D3. However, I'm sure they could use our suggestions =)

    I'd like mana management to be more strategic, i.e., involve more interesting decision making. Blizzard are already moving this direction, and we can see this through the addition of the Wizard skill 'Mana Burst', that increases spell damage when cast at full mana. But what else could be done?

    Mana Burst is an interesting example: it adds an new dimension to spell casting by breaking a rule, and I think there might be more meat on that bone.

    But first, what do I mean by a rule?

    This is open to debate, but I'd suggest that the basic rules of casters are:
    1. all spells cost the caster mana (therefore without mana spell casting is impossible)
    2. a spell’s damage (including crit chance) is only determined by skill level
    3. a spell’s mana cost is only determined by skill level
    4. mana is regenerated passively with time
    5. a set amount of mana may be regenerated actively with mana orbs
    6. a set amount of mana may be regenerated actively with potions

    I've already mentioned the new Mana Burst spell, but there are other game features that alter these core rules, some of which we're used to from D2.

    We're most familiar with alterations to Rule 2. It's often modified by passive skills and items, as well as character willpower... there's even a passive that increases the effect of willpower on spell damage.

    Rule 3 may be modified by passive skills (see Efficient Magics).

    Rule 4 (passive mana regen) can be modified by items and passive skills... is there a skill that increases mana gained from mana orbs?

    Rule 5, as far as I know, is never broken or modified.

    So, what are some interesting ideas for changes to, or exceptions from these basic rules? I'll suggest a few, suggest more if you want.

    Power of the Void:
    • Active skill
    • Description: costs all mana and stops passive regen for a while, but reduces all spell mana costs to 0 for a short time (less time than the stop on passive regen).
    • Breaks Rule 1.

    Arcane thief:
    • Active skill
    • Description: For a short time the caster draws power from enemies instead of themselves. Spell casting costs are taken from effected enemies mana pool.
    • Breaks rule 1.

    Strung Out:
    • Passive skill
    • Description: The caster is at their best under pressure, their spells do more damage as their mana pool nears empty (benefit only kicks in under 50% mana)
    • Breaks rule 2.

    Hyperactive:
    • Passive skill
    • Description: Boosts passive mana regen when running.
    • Alters rule 4

    Crystal Conduit:
    • Active channelled skill
    • Description: Summons a crystal which channels manna... from somewhere. The summoning is instant, but once summoned the caster must focus on it. If the caster is not interrupted the it channels mana to the caster and allies for a set time (high mana regen for short time), then crumbles. If the caster moves or is hit then the spell is interupted: the caster sufferes a mana backlash (looses mana and suffers manna burn), and the crystal explodes damaging all around (allies and enemies) (physical+arcane damage)
    • Active regen without orb or potion, breaks rule 5 and 6 I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2009
  18. Panzerschwein

    Panzerschwein Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    I know the NWN system well, and though you could say its similar it's not what I meant. I think mostly I was just unclear in my post.

    My thought is that there is a skill where so long as you hold the button you're regenerating. You don't have to hold it any set amount of time, you can drop it when you want then keep moving. Kinda like using d2 inferno but instead of damaging people you generate mana at a rate of X/sec.

    My thought was a system where you might fire off a few spells, then run back a few steps to hit the mana gathering for a second or two, then fire off a few more. If you wanted to completely fill your mana it might take 10 seconds or so. You could still have some passive regen, but it would be downplayed in favor of actively regenerating mana. This means you can manage your mana strategically rather than waiting for your slow and constant regen rate.


     
  19. Grumpy Old Wizard

    Grumpy Old Wizard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    Wizards fight with their spells. I don't think it would be a very popular class if you could only cast a few spells then you had to run back and hope you had room to meditate for a while to remain mana. Wizards facing fast opponents would be dead. And it would be a very slow class to play. 10 seconds is a long time to have to stop and do nothing.

    That's kind of like saying a barbarian could swing his weapon 3 times and then had to retreat to find a place safe enough to repair it so he could swing it three more times (and only allowing him to carryon one weapon at a time.)

    In a game like p-n-p dungeons and dragons where you typiclaly face only a few opponents at a time and encounters are few and far between a resting system works. But not for Diablo where you kill many thousands of monsters in a single sitting.

    Now a hybrid systm of having all higher level spells have a casting delay might work. But the lower spells would have to be readily available so the wizard would have something to fight with. And the lower spells would have to be effective enough to actually do something when used. But the timered spells aren't very popular in Diablo because people want to be doing stuff not waiting to do stuff.

    Sacred 2 combat arts (spells and weapon attacks) have casting delays and regeneration times but as you invest in passive skills those times get lowered. I think D3 is sort of doing that with all of the passive skills that affect spells for the wizard. A wizard is already going to have to invest tons of points into passives to make his spells effective as well as a number of mana management passives too.



     
  20. Edairu

    Edairu Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Spice up mana management in d3!

    My thoughts exactly.

    The way I see it, there wasn't a whole lot wrong with the Diablo 2 mana system. Granted, stat points into energy were wasted. And insight was almost a necessity for most sorceress builds.

    But I liked that I didn't have to constantly be checking my mana pool to see if I should wait around or keep moving. The wizard would be insanely boring if I had to "recharge" after every mob of monsters. Slowing the pacing down to a grinding halt. And since stats are no longer an issue, and mana orbs will regularly drop for a quick pick-me-up. Then there is really no reason to change the system.


     

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