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SPF Reform Survey

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by DiabloTwoinDC, Jan 11, 2018.

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  1. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC Diabloii.Net Member

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    Recently, there have been a couple threads discussing the current state of affairs on the SPF. The SPF I know, and SPF Reform Proposals. Many people voiced differing opinions, but are we all that different? We all breath the same air. We all cherish our Bul-Kathos' Children. And, we are all 'El Mortal'. :D

    The purpose of this survey is to get an accurate depiction of where everyone's opinions actually lie, so that we could possibly move forward with some concrete action. I plan on leaving this thread open/updated for a while so everyone has a chance to come along and weigh in. Here are the "results" I have gleaned from the SPF Reform thread:

    1. Discussion of mods:
    Banned - @Kitteh @Gynli @JoeBruce
    Banned (w/sub-forum**) - @Xios @Albatross
    Allowed (in sub-forum) - @fearedbliss @GalaXyHaXz @Burgomaster3 @TheNix @ffs @ThomasJohnsen @Maltatai @Timinator @BKC @thefranklin
    Allowed -

    Something along the lines of a Sub-forum where options/features for FAM mods, and theoretical mods can be discussed. But, not allowing discussion/promotion of non-approved mods.


    1.a. Referencing PlugY:
    A few people brought this up, simply allowing the name "PlugY", but, no discussion. (possibly adding a sticky to avoid PlugY users bringing it up)
    Banned -
    Allowed - @Kitteh @necrolemming @Burgomaster3 @T72on1 @DiabloTwoinDC @ffs @Gynli @fearedbliss @ioupainmax @ThomasJohnsen @GalaXyHaXz @Xios @Maltatai @Albatross @Timinator @BKC @thefranklin

    2. Beta 1.07.41:
    Banned - @JoeBruce
    Allowed - @ffs @Kitteh @DiabloTwoinDC @Timinator
    Allowed (but, must be kept separate) - @GalaXyHaXz @TheNix @T72on1 @Gynli @fearedbliss @ioupainmax @Xios @Maltatai @Albatross @BKC

    3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
    Banned - @necrolemming @ThomasJohnsen @JoeBruce
    Allowed - @fearedbliss @ioupainmax @ffs @Kitteh @TheNix @DiabloTwoinDC @Gynli @Albatross @Timinator @BKC @thefranklin
    Allowed (w/shift) - @T72on1 @GalaXyHaXz

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
    Banned -
    Allowed - @fearedbliss @ffs @Burgomaster3 @Gynli @GalaXyHaXz @Albatross @thefranklin
    Allowed (but no classic-expansion) - @TheNix @Timinator @ioupainmax @ThomasJohnsen @JoeBruce

    5. ATMA bugged items:
    Banned (delete everything tainted) -
    Banned (delete only bugged items) - @fearedbliss @Gynli @ThomasJohnsen @BKC @thefranklin
    Allowed (banned in rules, and posting) - @ffs @TheNix @necrolemming @Kitteh @T72on1 @DiabloTwoinDC @ioupainmax @GalaXyHaXz @Maltatai @Albatross
    Allowed - @MizzouFTW @Timinator @JoeBruce

    6. HC to SC items:
    Banned - @fearedbliss @Kitteh @Gynli @Burgomaster3 @TheNix @T72on1 @ffs @ioupainmax @ThomasJohnsen @GalaXyHaXz @Maltatai @Albatross @Timinator @BKC @JoeBruce
    Allowed - @thefranklin

    7. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):

    Banned - @ioupainmax
    Banned (unless update was Bnet only) - @Kitteh
    Allowed (for consolidation player base) - @fearedbliss
    Allowed (for trading purposes) - @necrolemming @GalaXyHaXz
    Allowed - @ffs @Burgomaster3 @Timinator @BKC @thefranklin

    8. Using map seeds:
    Banned - @necrolemming @Kitteh @maxicek @Burgomaster3 @T72on1 @ThomasJohnsen @Maltatai @Albatross @Timinator @BKC @thefranklin @JoeBruce
    Banned (w/exceptions**) - @pharphis @Gynli @ffs @Grape @TheNix @DiabloTwoinDC @ioupainmax
    Allowed (personal use) - @fearedbliss @GalaXyHaXz
    Allowed (public use) -


    9. Using Time-travelled items:
    9.a. Forwarding 1.07-1.09 S/U, charms, jewels:
    Banned -
    Allowed (must be declared) - @ffs @Albatross @BKC @JoeBruce
    Allowed - @DiabloTwoinDC @GalaXyHaXz @Timinator @Joe

    9.b. Using/Forwarding "bugged" items (MPK rings/LL bug): This category may also include "bugs" like wep switch glitch?
    Banned -
    Allowed (must be declared) - @GalaXyHaXz @DiabloTwoinDC @ffs @Albatross @BKC @JoeBruce
    Allowed - @Timinator

    9.c. Using Hybrid-Rares:
    Banned -
    Allowed (must be declared) - @ffs @GalaXyHaXz @Albatross @Timinator @BKC @JoeBruce
    Allowed -


    Please refer to one of the two discussion threads if you'd like to weigh in on the debate. I'd like to keep this pretty much as a "results" thread. But, if categories need amended/added please let me know. Otherwise, feel free to post or PM me with more votes.


    There is the possibility that these two are already allowed under SPF rules, so I kept them separate:


    D2DC
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  2. ffs

    ffs Diabloii.Net Member

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    Again - massive thanks for the initiative!

    I guess while discussions should take place in the SPF Reform Proposals thread, people can state here where they should be categorized. As to the topics where I'm not listed yet:

    1.: Allowed in sub-forum.
    1.a: Allowed.
    3.: Allowed (More precisely: Indifferent, so don't mind that much if allowed (with or without shift).)
    7: Banned.
    10: Not entirely clear yet - if only used as a GoMule replacement, I'd be fine with it. Maybe add this as a category? I imagine it could be the same for others.
     
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  3. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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    Much appreciated. Thanks for the effort.
     
  4. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC Diabloii.Net Member

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    @ffs Thanks, it's been updated. But, I already had you down for #3. No fair voting twice! :)

    Also, from @pharphis last comment in the Proposals thread, I'm assuming he's okay with the ilvl display?
     
  5. pharphis

    pharphis Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    I don't really care for it or against it
     
  6. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC Diabloii.Net Member

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    I'll just remove the vote then. If people are ambivalent, I don't want to be stuffing the ballot..
     
  7. Gynli

    Gynli Diabloii.Net Member

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    Filling in some gaps in my votes that I didn't previously mention.

    1.a. PlugY
    Allowed

    2. Beta
    Allowed, as separate

    3. iLvl/Fingerprint
    Allowed

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions
    Allowed
    Assuming general rule of trading, such as same-version trading only, no going backward in time, etc

    6. Ladder RW for 1.10
    Allowed

    9. Colored runes
    Allowed

    EDIT: I am too uninformed regarding the abcd merging, so I will not vote on that one.
     
  8. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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    1. Discussion of mods:
    Allowed (in sub-forum)

    1.a. Referencing PlugY:
    Allowed

    2. Beta 1.07.41:
    Allowed (but, must be kept separate) (It's weird to allow 1.10 beta patches in regular trade pool though but I'm fine with keeping 1.07.41 separate even with this inconsistency).

    3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
    Allowed

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
    Allowed

    5. ATMA bugged items:
    Banned (delete only bugged items)

    6. Ladder RW for 1.10:
    Allowed

    7. HC to SC items:
    Banned

    8. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):

    Allowed (for consolidation player base)

    9. Colored runes 1.07+:
    Allowed

    10. Using map seeds:
    Allowed (personal use)
     
  9. ioupainmax

    ioupainmax Diabloii.Net Member

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    Here's where I stand on the below issues:

    1. Discussion of mods:
    Errr....still not sure!

    1.a. Referencing PlugY:
    "Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself"

    Let's call a spade a spade and use it's name when referencing PlugY or any other banned mod whatever it may be. Also, agree with @GalaXyHaXz where he mentions we should clearly signpost this to PlugY users in the FAQ/Guidelines: "PlugY USERS READ THIS FIRST"

    2. Beta 1.07.41:
    Allow but keep contained . This may seem like setting a different precedent than other patches but I think there are sufficient differences (namely, limited distribution of original beta patch - not officially released on Battle.net).

    3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
    I might be in the minority, but I think this should be allowed. Exposing this pre-existing information seems like a minor issue.

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
    I don't trade because I get the most joy from finding items myself, but, were I to decide at some point in the future to trade, then I would allow trading assuming it doesn't cross HC/SC or Classic/Expansion. Certainly, the restriction on trading in older patches seems to be arbitrary.

    5. ATMA bugged items:
    Continue to be declared in trading profiles
    Continue to be declared where relevant
    Don't require deletion of items/characters/stashes that are already tainted, however an agreement from a specific date to stop further practice and to stop posting about such items.

    6. Ladder RW for 1.10:
    Allowed...heck I think I was using RWM for 1.10 back in the day.

    7. HC to SC items:
    Never - treat as parallel universes

    8. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):
    Would need to look at specifics, but gut instinct is to say:
    - Allow for minor patches that didn't affect gameplay in the sense of item stats, rune words and the like. E.G. the patch from 'c' -> 'd' only changed a graphics issue or somesuch
    - Ban for changes that affect an item or rune word. Use of said changed items in an MP game could have unintended consequences or stability issues.

    My gut instinct is to go with the above, however, from a KISS (Keep It Simple...Stupid) perspective, the sacrosanct nature of 'only go forward, never back for items and characters' does carry a lot of weight. So for that reason, I'm going to stick with divisions unless someone can come up with a compelling list of reasons to merge some patches based on their notes. Whether we would get forum agreement is...debateable!

    9. Colored runes 1.07+:
    Allow this. I believe every game developer should think about people who may have disabilities and ensure they have a mandatory minimum level of accessibility for inclusive game design (http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/basic/).

    10. Using map seeds:
    Allow for tournaments (ish - I don't have great feelings towards use in tournaments...but I just think why? The variability of random maps adds more interest in my opinion)
    Allow for map recovery when you misclick
    Allow as a GoMule/ATMA replacement when someone self MPs to mule (although this seems inefficient...but whatever)
    Don't share (with the exception of tournaments) - treat as rare item etc.
    Don't use the same map seed for other characters
    All other uses banned
     
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  10. ThomasJohnsen

    ThomasJohnsen Diabloii.Net Member

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    These are my opinions (if 'no opinion' is stated, it means I wouldn't mind either way and will let those with strong opinions decide).

    1. Discussion of mods:

    Allowed (in sub-forum)

    1.a. Referencing PlugY:
    Allowed

    2. Beta 1.07.41:
    No opinion

    3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
    Banned

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
    Allowed

    5. ATMA bugged items:
    Banned (delete only bugged items)

    6. Ladder RW for 1.10:
    Allowed

    7. HC to SC items:
    Banned

    8. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):

    No opinion

    9. Colored runes 1.07+:

    No opinion

    10. Using map seeds:
    Banned
     
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  11. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC Diabloii.Net Member

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    Updated @Gynli @fearedbliss @ioupainmax @ThomasJohnsen. I also added a few votes from some more opinions I saw in the discussion thread. Thanks for your input! :)

    For simplicity sake, I combined all votes that are against map seed use, but with possible exceptions. These could be dissected later if need be.
     
  12. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    Thanks for your work on this @DiabloTwoinDC. Perhaps being a little more diplomatic will finally result in some conclusions on all of this. Also, I would add a #11 to the list:
    -----
    11. Usage of "bugged" time traveled items:
    Banned
    Allowed (must be declared) (I go with this)
    Allowed (currently as the rule is)
    -----

    1. Discussion of mods:
    Allowed (in sub-forum) (or sub-thread)

    1.a. Referencing PlugY:
    Allowed (and we need a sticky to get their attention)

    2. Beta 1.07.41:
    Allowed (but, must be kept separate)

    3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
    Allowed (w/shift) (non-intrusive to those less favorable)

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
    Allowed (I don't trade, but don't see any problems)

    5. ATMA bugged items:
    Allowed (banned in rules, and posting) (Further use discouraged)

    6. Ladder RW for 1.10:
    Allowed (I thought this was already allowed?)

    7. HC to SC items:
    Banned (HC/SC should always be separate)

    8. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):

    Banned (except for 1.13<->1.14 trading) (remember the rule of Time Traveling--characters can NEVER go back in time)

    9. Colored runes 1.07+:

    Allowed (Thyiad already formerly approved this, but never updated the sticky, it's already allowed)

    10. Using map seeds:
    Allowed (personal use) (public use--only for tournaments [the duration of])
     
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  13. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC Diabloii.Net Member

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    Adding it to the list. I'll separate into possibly 3 categories ("cheese" items, "bugged" items, and hybrid-rares).
     
  14. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC Diabloii.Net Member

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    After reading @Xios post in the Proposals thread, I'm wondering if another category should be added to the "Allowing Mod discussion"? Possibly a "Mod-Theorycrafting" Sub-forum/Thread option? While non-FAM are still not to be discussed.

    Versus just allowing all mod discussion, which may easily turn into here-is-how-to-hack-the-game..
     
  15. DiabloTwoinDC

    DiabloTwoinDC Diabloii.Net Member

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    Several people in the Proposals thread spoke along these lines as well. These two may already be allowed under current SPF rules. We might simply need to clear this up with the Mods to make sure. I'll keep the vote tallies going, but am going to remove them from the issues list.
     
  16. Maltatai

    Maltatai Diabloii.Net Member

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    My vote.

    1. Discussion of mods:

    Allowed (in sub-forum)

    1.a. Referencing PlugY:
    Allowed

    2. Beta 1.07.41:
    Allowed (but, must be kept separate)

    3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
    Neither for or against.

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
    Neither for or against.

    5. ATMA bugged items:
    Allowed (banned in rules, and posting)
    Not really a fan of this but it has been with us for so long time and doesn't have that much of an impact.

    6. Ladder RW for 1.10:
    Allowed

    7. HC to SC items:
    Banned

    8. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):

    Neither for or against.

    9. Colored runes 1.07+:

    Allowed

    10. Using map seeds:
    Banned
     
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  17. ffs

    ffs Diabloii.Net Member

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    As to the new item of using Time-travelled items, it's an integral part of the SPF but I'm not too familiar with all the nuances. I don't think people should be denied this, yet many don't consider it quite kosher. So I vote "Allowed (must be declared)" for all of these.
     
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  18. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    Regarding the update:
    9.a. Allowed
    9.b/c - Must be declared
     
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  19. ffs

    ffs Diabloii.Net Member

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    Good amount of contribution so far, I have to admit this discussion has been much more fruitful than I would have thought. :)

    @DiabloTwoinDC going through the results so far I noticed for #8 you put me in banned category as well, I'm not schizophrenic though... well not that my current personality knows at least. :)

    Also for Atma bugging I think for people not having read the discussion thread, the category "Allowed (banned in rules, and posting)" might sound a bit contradictory. I think maybe this could be clarified e.g. "Allowed (no deletions, but going forward banned in rules and posting)"?
     
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  20. Albatross

    Albatross Diabloii.Net Member

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    Thanks for making the survey, D2DC. It looks like we won't be able to resolve all of these issues, but the survey could be repeated annually to see if people changed their mind. I also hope many more members will come forward and cast their vote.

    1. Discussion of mods:
    Allowed (in sub-forum) - with clear declaration of what is FAM so (new) members don't get confused

    1.a. Referencing PlugY:
    Allowed - censorship is silly

    2. Beta 1.07.41:
    Allowed (but must be kept separate) - at least until we know what horrors lie in there

    3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
    Allowed - I don't need either, but it's just cosmetic so it wont hurt me

    4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
    Allowed

    5. ATMA bugged items:
    Allowed (banned in rules, and posting) - there'll come a time when we'll have plenty of HRs and deleting these items (probably) won't be an issue for anyone still playing, but I can't justify forcing someone to delete them, especially if they were not aware of the bug

    6. HC to SC items:
    Banned

    7. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):
    Allowed - I guess, this should be evaluated for each patch, some are different and most are quite irrelevant since no one plays them

    8. Using map seeds:
    Banned - sorry, but as long as there are viable alternatives I'm not ok with seed manipulation

    9. Using Time-travelled items:
    9.a.,b.,c.

    Allowed (must be declared) - whoever is dedicated enough to grind these deserves to use them, but let us know about it

    Ladder RWs for 1.10 and coloured runes
    Allowed
     
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