Specialization for all weapons

mjkittredge

Diabloii.Net Member
Specialization for all weapons

One of the things that bothers me about D2, is that only one class makes use of regular daggers (Necromancer, Poison Dagger skill) for a short time until they get Poison Nova, and Staves are neglected bastard children - sorcs do better with Orbs because they get to use a shield as well.

The problem being, all these items on the vendor, and dropping in the field, are for the most part, wasted. A Barbarian has no specialization for daggers or staves. A Paladin or druid could use them without penalty, but in most cases they have much better options.

Beyond that, spears are near useless, Barbs can specialize in them, but why would they, when they have so many other choices? Amazon spear skills leave much to be desired, that's for the ones that aren't broken or completely lousy. So people put them on a Merc or drop em in a FREE game. Maybe a chargeadin would wield one. How many of those do you see?

Two handers of all types, while doing much more damage, put a character at too much of a disadvantage defensively especially in the higher difficulties, fighting without a shield.

So there are all these weapons that are far less than desirable, piling up, un-used, low or no trade value. It shouldn't be that way.

I hope, for Diablo 3, that all weapon types are represented in the Skill tree. Farily and evenly. And that characters are given more flexibility in what they can effectively use.

Aside from character classes, how about some greater variety in hireling type? A lumberjack merc or an executioner merc that uses 2handed axes. A thief merc that uses daggers. A monk character class that uses staves.
 

cursedfrankie

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

This is definitely a nice idea, and I think most of us would agree with it in principle. It makes sense for the class that specializes in weapons to be able to specialize in all non-class specific weapons in the game (eg. assassins claws). However, I think there are bound to be some problems in the implementation.

You mention that there are quite a few weapons that not used in any viable/common builds. I think this is bound to happen in any game. In fact, it is precisely the reason why sites like diabloii.net exist. People want to know what the most efficient method for accomplishing the games goals is. If one weapon isn't as good as another, the poorer one will stopped being used once those differences are discovered.

If those differences in effectiveness did not exist, the selection of weapons would be reduced to a merely cosmetic choice. Choose the weapon you like the look of the best.

In the end though, I completely agree that the balance of different builds/play-style choices should be carefully considered by the game developers in order to ensure as small an advantage as possible to one build over another.
 

Kiroptus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

I agree with you. I would love to see a scythe-wileding necromancer that has specific special attacks with the scythe or a sorceress that can wield and enchanted scimitar and actually use it well.
 

mjkittredge

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

"If those differences in effectiveness did not exist, the selection of weapons would be reduced to a merely cosmetic choice. Choose the weapon you like the look of the best. "

I disagree. I'm not advocating all weapons be the same statistically, offensively/defensively, ect. I'm just wishing there were more uses for the heavily neglected types. That meaning, more character skills specializing in their types, more mercs specializing in different weapons.

Daggers are mini-me swords, they should be faster and perform better against certain types of monsters. I think daggers are really cool weapons and should have more uses. Same for the other neglectarinos, 2handed axes, staves, ect.

And realistically, there should be some chance for a weapon parry so you're not 100% defenseless without a shield. And maybe the reach of 2 handers, especially polearms and spears, could be a little farther.

For all we know, all of these things could be in effect in the secret developement of Diablo 3 right now :D
 

cursedfrankie

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

I didn't mean that that all weapon types would need the same damage,speed, abilities etc. Rather I meant to say that even if the developers attempt to balance out the "strength" of weapons (which I really hope they are doing), for example daggers being faster while axes do more damage etc etc, one weapon type would always come out on top in the end. So I guess i'm not really against your argument at all, i'm just being pessimistic about the results. LoL. Having played manymany online RPG's it seems like one weapon type(or even one specific weapon) always ends up being favored by the gaming community.

I think you have something with your point about a parrying chance. This has been implemented in other games rather well, and I don't see why it shouldn't be possible in D3.

On a side-note, I remember in the past in D2 spears were favored by WW barbs, whatever happened to that? Seems like maces are what people go for these days.
 

prion

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

iirc in classic there were no speed breakpoints for WW so you just use the highest damage weapon possible, which was usually a sweet rare lance (mauls dont get the range) hence the term "old school lancer"
 

sicilian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

One of the things I really liked about Diablo II was the difficulty levels (Normal, Nightmare, Hell). What they did, in effect, was allow you to make cosmetic choices if you like, because even wasting stat points, using inappropriate weapons, etc, one could battle their way through Normal and complete the story.

Then, if you really want the status of beating the game entirely on Hell, you need to plan better, which means there's going to be a best way to do it.

If you give too many options, that planning doesn't exist, because you can basically just do whatever and still beat Hell.

I would like an overhaul to weapons in general though. For example, maces did 50% extra damage to undead... I want to see a more complex weapon / monster system that takes into account different types of damage.
 

mjkittredge

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

Too many options, that sounds like an embarassment of riches. Considering the dozens of possible builds you can make in D2 today, you could make an argument there are already too many options. I'd rather have more choices than less.

Not necessarily doing whatever you want to beat the game on the hardest difficulty, I definitely wouldn't advocate that. But how about a Necro with a second or third dagger specializing skill, instead of the Poison Dagger skill which becomes painfully obsolete once you get to level 30 and get Poison Nova, for instance. A chance to continue on with the favored type of weapon and use it to greater effect. It's been done in other games, but there are as many ways to tweak it and add variety as there are stars in the sky.

Bring back the monk class, to use those rare staves with good damage on them with a variety of special attacks, maybe even missile deflection, spinning his staff to shield himself.

Executioner class to put those big nasty 2handed axes to best effect, lopping off heads and slicing people in half.

Or even, for D3, an Amazon Spear Skill tree... that actually works! Imagine that!

That's not doing whatever the hell you want. You have to choose a specific character, and a specific route in their skill tree, to get the most out of certain types of weapons.
 

mjkittredge

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

Spears at least go on a Merc so they aren't 100% worthless -until you get an insight polearm. Precious few players using spears though. Good for a challenge game I guess, like that guy who had the Impaleazon on hardcore.
 

Angel_of_Wrath

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

Bring back the monk class, to use those rare staves with good damage on them with a variety of special attacks, maybe even missile deflection, spinning his staff to shield himself.
Yes! I love the monk and his use of staves and virtually no armor. :thumbsup:


I think some of it is the reworking of skills so there is a reward for using them. Take your example of poison dagger... it's fun to run around and stab things, but totally useless in hell. However, if it scaled to monster difficulty better and had more relevant synergies, it would be much more viable.
I really hope that they do that sort of thing - make lvl 1 skills still useful at end game with a max investment or synergy. Not more powerful than lvl 30 skills, but definitely usable.

Weapon parry is also something that is needed, as well as believable. It could be a stat on the weapon similar to %dmg to undead, so you have %chance to block or a block rating. Mauls would be less while claws or staves would be higher with shields obviously the highest.
I remember in classic, i loved using big mauls or ancient axes on my charge paladin but, playing hardcore, he could never survive a significant lag spike.

I also agree with having more types of weapons that work better in certain circumstances. So, the mace class does more dmg to undead, the dagger class might be alot faster swing speed, swords would damage beasts more (i think d1 had that), spears would be better against flying enemies, the wands couldn't block or increase damage but they would inherently increase your magic power.

Hell, i just want d3. :laugh:



 

stillman

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

I think the above suggestions are good solutions. I would add that maybe for one weapon class, like swords, they don't do the best damage, but you have a higher chance of finding eth swords so in the future you have a chance to outdo axe damage with eth swords. Maybe pole arms could have more elemental damage spawning on them than any other weapon class. Another class of weapon can have highest durability or is extremely cheap to repair which would be better suited for making runewords.
I think the solutions WERE there in the game originally, but with all the patches, things had to change. For example, the gull dagger was the best weapon in the game for mf. Now, it is outdated and only good perhaps as a lucky find in low level. As mentioned, the spears did the most damage in version 1.8 I think, but too many spear barbs emerged and they had to change things in a patch. I think staves were all a sorceress had in the early versions.
My hope is that the team will learn from the all the problems in D1 and D2 and get everything right the first time when making D3. It seems each problem they fix opens up other problems.
 

prion

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

i actually kinda like changes in different patches is forces people to come up with new ideas
 

mjkittredge

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

Angel gets it. A lot of good skills are in place, they just need to scale better, need to be tweaked so they work more effectively.

I hate how potentially great weapons drop, but then you think "Wow, the stats on this, too bad it's not a _____."
 

Mythic

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

As far as 2 hander vs. 1 hander with shields, the obvious solution is to make shields add armor class rather than having them give you effectively (close to) 75% damage reduction.
 

raishi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Specialization for all weapons

poison dagger is decent against single targets...personally i always have it on my left click so i get a few k's worth of damage out of a miss click...

Throwing weapons could use a little more beefing up...for like a thief class...and have cool throwing abilities...
 
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