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Someone Fill me In (politics)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by toader, Feb 23, 2004.

  1. toader

    toader Banned

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    Someone Fill me In (politics)

    Ill be real honest and just claim ignorance on this subject.

    I have absolutly no idea where any of the democratic candidates stand on any issues...what they are proposing...etc...

    The reason for this is because for me...a person living in Oklahoma...presidential elections dont really matter. Since we have such a wonderful system of electoral college, being in my state makes the whole system void. The state has voted Republican for as long as I can remember....gosh, proly have to go WAY WAY back to find the last time OK's votes didnt go to republican. So if you want to vote non-republican, dont matter cuz it wont happen; and if you want to vote republican, dont matter either becuase thats the way the electorate will vote anyhow.

    That being said, Im curious as to what some of the candidates are trying to do, what issues they are trying to support. Mainly Kerry, since it seems he kinda has it wrapped up.

    But I would like to hear from those people that are for Kerry (Munch, etc...) and also from those who are against him, so that I can get a well rounded view of whats going on.
     
  2. maccool

    maccool IncGamers Member

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  3. Drosselmeier

    Drosselmeier IncGamers Member

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    Kerrys issues are basically whatever will get him votes. He has no real principles and can make an 180-turn at any moment on any issue.
     
  4. Lone_C

    Lone_C IncGamers Member

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    Well, he pretty much takes sides with everything the Democratic party supports, i.e. Higher taxes, pro gun control, pro choice, more U.N. involvement in military affairs, etc. The people that like him are Democrats, 'cause he shares their ideals. The people that don't like him are the conservative Repubs (actually many of them HATE him with a passion), and some liberals (myself included) who don't like his constant flip-flopping on issues.
     
  5. maccool

    maccool IncGamers Member

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    Lone_C you are aware that Democrats can be pro-life, against strict gun control laws, in favor of a more equitable tax system, for U.S. military involvement, etc.?

    You're using a pretty broad paintbrush to generalize there.
     
  6. toader

    toader Banned

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    Dross and Lone...

    What are some of the issues that he has flopped on recently?


    (p.s. I hate the whole party system...noone can (should) be just plain democrat or republican...there are too many issues. Example: Democrats= higher taxes, gun control, pro-choice, UN involvement....what in the holy hell do those have in common. What if someone wants lower taxes, pro-choice, anti-gun control, and UN involvement....see what I mean? Thats why I was asking for his stance specifinally on some hotter issues...but it seems he's flopping on those anyways :scratch: )
     
  7. Drosselmeier

    Drosselmeier IncGamers Member

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    http://slate.msn.com/id/2088214/

    http://www.counterpunch.org/schulte02102004.html

    EDIT:

    This is why I think a good turnout for Nader will help the progressive cause... because Kerry is a pushover.

    EDIT2:

    This is just to good to leave out...

    That says a lot.
     
  8. toader

    toader Banned

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    Thanks for the links Dross, very informative.

    Well, Ive heard from what seems to be mostly anti-Kerry sources.

    Does anyone out there support Kerry and care to share their reasons for it?
     
  9. maccool

    maccool IncGamers Member

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    I support you making your own informed decision despite the biases of Dross (Kucinich backer), Lone_C (dunno), and me (none of the above).
     
  10. toader

    toader Banned

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    Well, Mac...thats what I am trying to do.

    Thats why I want to hear from both sides...those that like him and those that dont like him. I am reading on hit website that you linked me right now, but its alot to read, and Im taking it all with a grain of salt...since its obviously not a unbiased source of info.


    I read around on Kerrys website a little bit. I like what he beleives about helping students thru college..thru his proposed credit system and service for tuition (2 years = 4 years). I also like that he "claims" he will give more funding for state schools (K-12), but then again...Bush promised the same thing and hasnt come thru on that issue. Im still reading on his website....its hard to get good info from there thouhg...because pretty much every issue he says something good about. (unless your a big business or pro-war supporter)
     
  11. Munch

    Munch IncGamers Member

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    Bah.

    The Republican party is extremely one-sided - i.e. you could make a list of typical beliefs and the vast majority of pubbies are going to be identical. The same does not hold for Democrats. Unfortunately, that works against the Dems favor.

    Toader: It's not so much that I'm for Kerry. If the Democrats nominated a ham sandwich, I'd vote for it. At this point, there are farm animals I'd vote for before I'd vote for George W. Bush.

    And the last Dem. that Oklahoma voted for was LBJ in 1964.
     
  12. toader

    toader Banned

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    Thanks for the info Munch. Pretty silly isnt it. 40 years of voting republican...with no shift in site either
    :rant:

    I will say this. The last candidate I voted for WON the election, but is not president. I voted for Gore last election, and he won the popular vote, but thanks to our great electoral college system, he is not the president.

    Does anyone else not like the system. I wouldnt mind it if ENTIRE states didnt have to go one way or another. California with its HUGE amount of college votes should be able to disprese them as the popular vote demands. Anyways...I hate the system, but thanks for the info.
     
  13. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    he's like bush but not as unilateral.

    They are both free trade (cause nafta worked so well :scratch: )

    Neither support unions

    Kerry wants to pull alot of overseas troops back to the states unless they are in a hostile country conducting operations

    Bush is pulling alot of overseas troops back to the states unless they are in a hostile country conducting operation (he calls it "force stabilization)

    Kerry wants a smaller army

    Rummy (bush staff) also wants this

    hence, we have another race between bush and bush lite
     
  14. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    I support Kerry. But then again, I would support any Democrat over Bush.

    Despite all the campaign rhetoric from both sides, the vast majority of power that a president really commands is in foreign affairs. He is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and, although the War Powers Act limits the time of military involvement before he must go to Congress, he can still force issues through military intervention. As far as domestic issues are concerned, it is congress that controls the purse strings. The president's power, in this regard, is simply his influence on congress through his executive position and publicity.

    As it stands now (in foreign affairs), Kerry is against Bush's "uni-lateral" intervention and despises his pre-emptive strike agenda. He stands against the neocon's position of using America's military power to force-feed Western democracy through the barrel of a gun. He stands against their dreams of imperialism and empire. Although he initially voted for our intervention in Iraq, I do believe that he was persuaded by the propaganda that the executive department was using (WMD). One must also take into account that this vote came before congress just before elections in 2002. The Republicans were attempting, at that time, to brand anybody that opposed their war resolution as being "unpatriotic". Many of the Democrats fell victim to this ploy ... weak human nature I must assume.

    It is always easier to attack a senator or congressman that his been in office for many years as they have voted on a variety of issues over a span of time. Outsiders like Dean would have an easier time on this position as they did not have to make those decisions. Unfortunately for Dean, his uneven disposition and strong worded rhetoric did not sit well with voters looking for presidential candidate that could win the general election.

    As far as a candidate that represents my views, I would really say that Dennis Kucinich is probably the nearest. Unfortunately, he has about a "snowball's chance in hell" of winning the nomination much less the general election.

    To sum it up, Kerry appears to be the Democratic nominee for president. And although he is not perfect, Kerry is far preferable to our current resident in the White House.

    ABB! (Anybody but Bush!)
     
  15. rodigee

    rodigee IncGamers Member

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    Ya Kerry is a really sneaky fellow... A few examples:

    Kerry voted against the 1991 Gulf War which he now favors.

    Kerry voted for Gulf War 2 which he now opposes.

    Kerry opposes *** marriage but also opposes the Defense of Marriage Act.

    Kerry voted for NAFTA which he now attacks 24/7.

    Kerry votd against banning partial birth abortion but also says he is anti abortian.

    Kerry voted for No child Left Behind which he now hates and attacks.

    Kerry has taken more special intrest money than any senator in the past 15 years, and now he has the audacity to run as someone who doesn't take special intrest money and will expell it from D.C.

    I wouldn't trust this guy if I were you :)
     
  16. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    vote nader. If for no other reason then to show how much you dislike both main canidates.
     
  17. Munch

    Munch IncGamers Member

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    I need a cite on that one. Kerry has said numerous times that while he personally respects the Catholic Church's stance as pro-life, he as a Catholic legislator cannot legislate against the right to choose.

    I see nothing wrong with voting for something, and then attacking the fact that you were misled and lied to regarding the assumptions and facts leading to that war. Do you?

    I see nothing wrong with voting for something, and then attacking the fact that Pres. Bush refused to fund the initiative.

    So people aren't allowed to change their mind? A president cannot "expell it from D.C.". I have a feeling you may not know what you're talking about. By the way, Bush has raised more special interest money in the last YEAR than Kerry has in the last 20. Bush's largest contributor? Enron.

    If you want to complain about a Kerry flip-flop, complain about him voting for the PATRIOT Act and is now complaining about it. At no point did that piece of legislation look legitimate or constitutional.
     
  18. Ash Housewares

    Ash Housewares IncGamers Member

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    yes, where did you pull that one out? it seems extremely wrong to the point that it discredits the remainder of your claims
     
  19. maccool

    maccool IncGamers Member

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    I reckon who I vote for will depend on where I vote from. If I vote out of Washington, I'll go with one of the freak parties. But, if I vote out of Pennsylvania, I'll probably go with the Democratic candidate. Now that's democracy in action!
     
  20. rodigee

    rodigee IncGamers Member

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    I saw him on Meet The Press a few weeks back. :) When asked about the vote he said that he considered it morally wrong but didn't want to ban it. Playing both sides no?

    But seriously, all those issues besides the special interest one shouldn't be too much a problem for him. He's a politician, and he plays both sides. That's what politicians do. All of those issues he flopped can easily be spun to be examples showing that he is "open-minded" or something to that affect so *shrugs* mabye with some thats a bonus?

    The special interest issue is just sad though... I mean he has taken more of that money than any senator in the past 15 years and now he's running around saying things like :
    "We're coming, you're going, and don't let the door hit you on the way out!" in reference to special interets and trying to run as a guy who doesn't take any money from them.... Come on :)
     

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