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Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Demetrium, Feb 7, 2009.

  1. Demetrium

    Demetrium IncGamers Member

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    Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    You know what my biggest gripe about Diablo3 is so far? It's potential players who have the most obscure, irrelevant gripes about it and feel the need to post that they're not going to play it unless the game turns into a FMV of Survivorman with a Tetris overlay.

    I'm sick to my stomach over the fact every other thread on this goddam forum has some sort of ****ty analogy as to why D3 is going to be bad for a nonsensical reason. The game looks like WoW! The inventory management system is too easy! I don't like the fact the only source of health/mana is potions anymore, I refuse to play the game for this reason alone! Some attributes might automatically be delegated for me; this game is a fascist piece of ****! Why are you even registering and posting if this is seriously the case? Go shine your shoes and then complain to Kiki shoe polish and ***** about how they made it too easy by creating brush with an auto-distributing polish mechanism.

    World of Warcraft has a user interface and is a game made by Blizzard. So does every other videogame created dating back to Rock and Roll Racing. Is Rock and Roll Racing any worse of a game because they share this feature? You may or may not like or appreciate WoW for x reason, but the game isn't extremely successful because it was designed by a bunch of beef-witted Klingons. It has some great components, like an auction house system which make it so I don't have to use an EZboard forum like j2dsp and use "forum gold" currency to do trading and ensure I don't get scammed by some ***. If you don't like D3 so far because of the art style, fine, you're entitled to your opinions regardless of how paltry they are. Just don't throw them around and source WoW as your reason. Do us a favor and keep them to yourself.

    Look at the reasons you played Diablo2 and I'm sure the majority of them can still be found within Diablo3. Half of you would like to see D2 with an updated graphics engine and then would completely whine about how unoriginal Blizzard is. Stacking items in a grid is not a gameplay mechanic. The game is far less colorful and fruity than Diablo2 was. Diablo2 had automatically allocated stats. Having an auction system is not a bad idea. Posting ****ty reasons why you won't play Diablo3 is a bad idea.
     
  2. Zarniwoop

    Zarniwoop IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    I have no issues with the interface.

    I do have some concern with autostats.

    I don't want to end up having to do a bunch of tanking for 50 levels with my wizard so his stats are correctly distrubuted for stamina gear or whatever. But, if the entire game looks as good as the demo did, I'm so there.

    They have just nattered on about streamlining and simplifying. That = easier. That = not as much fun for some of us.

    I have the right to express that opinion. I'll still play it. Whether I'll still play it in 2012 is up to them.



    EDIT: Diablo 2 did NOT have auto-allocated stats.
     
  3. MinusDII

    MinusDII IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    He might mean the life/mana you get per level for different character classes?

    I don't like it when they simplify games, in fact I'd like it to be more complex with more opportunities for different whacky builds.

    I will of course still play the game and it is about the only game I've ever looked forward to. I have no problem with the graphics or most things I've seen so far, except the auto stats.


     
  4. Grug

    Grug IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Zarniwoop, what do you men, Tanking? Stats aren't distributed based on Gameplay. It doesn't matter how many times you're hit or whatever. Stats are Class based. For instance, a Wizard will get 1 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 2 Vitality, and 3 Energy every level, while a Barbarian will get 2 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 3 Vitality, and 1 Energy. This is regardless of player actions.
     
  5. Demetrium

    Demetrium IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    I was referring to the automatic placement of things like HP/mana per level, native crits, enhanced paladin blocking, etc. There's a bunch of "predetermined" values for the classes in D2. I personally think the system D3 will have would have similar minimal impact and not hurt your class' intended role by giving a barbarian 200 energy for no reason. Blizzard developers are pretty responsible about these things.



     
  6. ask_dk

    ask_dk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    I hear you Demetrium. I to think that all the people that react the way you explain, should keep away from the game and the forums regarding d3. Its not that people arent allowed to have their own oppinion about the game, but they could atleast keep it in a normal tone and not whining or cursing about it. It wont help anyone, the good thing is that we can totally ignore most of it :nod:
    This is the one game i have ever looked so much forward to and im really excited about it, but i do have a little concern about the auto stats aswell, i just hope that blizzard will do a job about it.
     
  7. visom

    visom IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Demetrium has a point. Some people that complains about D3 going to suck probably has no idea what they're talking about. For example, the auto stats; they said it would make the game too easy but they probably don't know the necessity of auto stats because they probably never played D2 to understand why.

    Most of the changes for D3 I approve because it would be so much better if implemented for example:

    -auto stats; people argued that it would remove customizations, but what customization? In D2 everyone has a generic build of enough in str, enough in dex, zero in energy and the rest of their points in vitality.
    -less darkness; the darkness in D2 is just plain annoying, the lower light radius doesn't add more element of fear it just makes me feel like I'm playing on a 10in monitor, instead of a light radius I'd rather have a fog radius where I can at least see small silhouettes of enemies outside my light radius.
    -single slot inventory; I'm neither happy or upset at this change but people complain that they don't get to organize their inventory which I find stupid really. I think I speak for 99% of Diablo players when I say that if my inventory is full, I don't spend 2 minutes reorganizing it, I simply use a TP to NPC all my junk or I throw away the item I don't need to make room, so the tetris system wasn't enthralling to me either.
     
  8. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    That is not true. There are builds that have very different stat allocation and there are even builds that only work because they utilise a different stat allocation. If you would implement an auto-stats system in diablo II, you would severely damage those builds.

    And seen the fact that diablo III still is the sequel to diablo II, there are reason to assume that leaving out manual stats will damage those potential builds.


    You are focussing on the things that didn't work in diablo II and then simply leave those out. I - and others with me - look at the things that do work in diablo II and try to implement these systems so that they work for all classes.



     
  9. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    These builds aren't likely PvP builds. 3 of the 4 stats just don't benefit that much from the extra investment:
    Extra strength is useless unless the character melees or throws weapons, and even then once the strength for gear is obtained, further increases in strength cause insignificant damage boosts.
    Extra dexterity beyond gear/max block is not too important with AR boosts from skills and equipment. The defense rating boost is also insignificant.
    Extra energy increases mana and mana regen, but the same can be accomplished with equipment and pots, so there's not much of point to boosting it.

    Beyond the points needed for gear/block, the best attribute to stack points in is vitality, especially since CtA gives everyone BO.

    There is also not much point in going lower in str/dex/energy since then you lose access to certain equipment, so builds tend to have common attribute distributions.

    Suggestions: Give additional bonuses for strength in excess of requirements/normal (Instead of 1% per point, how about 2-5% for each point over). Same with dexterity and ranged weapons. Give dexterity an enemy block reduction bonus. Energy: end pot spam, magic damage bonus, make a requirement for certain items.


     
  10. visom

    visom IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Please explain to me what these builds are and I'd prefer it to be a serious build that doesn't get abandoned before the character hits level 30 and is widely use for questing or pvp purposes other than made as a 1hour of "screwed up" character fun.

    Auto stat won't be completely auto. Each level you get 2 (correct me if I'm wrong) free points to allocate it in whatever you need. You can level up to 99(?) in D3, so 99x2 = 198 points, and you can do a lot with 198 points.

    What potential builds? We haven't even the chance to play D3, and those who have played D3 didn't have the time to experiment with builds so how would you know that it could damage these potential builds that no one knows for sure or even heard of? There's many builds with new skills and skill runes, even if manual stats which will (unlikely) reduce these "potential" builds you should know that you can't have everything. I want a barbarian that knows fireball but that just can't happen but I'm fine with that.

    Of course I'm focusing on things that didn't work in D2, why would I need to address the things that work? I didn't leave out the things that didn't work, I was acknowledging how Blizzard will try to fix it. Also, "look at the things that do work in diablo II and try to implement these systems so that they work for all classes", can you put that less bluntly?


     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2009
  11. Valkenheim

    Valkenheim IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Name one blizzard game that sucked, can't? there now stfu and just wait quietly for D3.

    And if any of you say Blackthorne, I'll personally kick your *** because that game was badass, I mean c'mon you can hide behind a wall in a 2d side scroller, AWESOME.
     
  12. sfs

    sfs IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Relaxation.
     
  13. AxlStrife

    AxlStrife IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Mostly-auto-stats are perfectly fine by me. I'm a little out-of-the-loop, but with the prospect of respec I don't see a problem at all with the stat system. Reminds me of D&D.
     
  14. Tyrone

    Tyrone IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    I approve of this topic 100% and glad someone said it. Thank you.
     
  15. sfs

    sfs IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Those grouches should outside and get some fresh air. I guarantee that even if D3 turned out like another WoW, they'd still be the first ones to buy it.
     
  16. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Diablo isn't a pvp game, atleast not for me.

    First you have the whole bowazon build and all physical bow users that need high investment in dexterity to hit good damage. So you want a distribution that is quite different from what you mention. if you then look at the pvp section, you'll notice that there isn't a set amount of life that is considered the best. Aiming for 1 - 1.4k life is advised though it's not worth investing to much in vitality if you can't get good charms as it will damage your damage.

    Then you have the energy sorcerer. That do need high mana and often archive this (partially) by investing in energy. And as far as I know, there isn't a perfect number of life versus mana. As they both work different. Mana is very usefull versus physical attack yet will be useless with mana burn and elemental attacks not to mention that poison/open wounds is very deadly in pvp for energy sorcerers.

    Then you have the debate of 200 fcr fire sorcerer versus 105 fcr. This decision comes with a stats decision as you go for max life or max block with life. Again, if you give them both the same stats distribution, it's ont unlikely that one would be considered much better then the other.
    I'm not an expert, yet I believe both builds are used.

    And then offcourse we have my own build - lf/fa amazon - that uses elded Whitstan's Guard. Now, I know what you are going to says, you are stupid as this is a crappy shield.
    We, perhaps that's true, though lets look at the alternatives. Seen the fact that I'm on non-ladder, spirit is quite expensive and facted jmod is totally out of the question. Not to mention that you can't have max block with them and that I build for max survivability - as I want to hit lvl 93. I could use stormshield though it's heavier and offers less block. It does offer dr so perhaps its better yet I did have a Whitstan's Guard and I didn't have a storm shield so I too Whitstan's Guard.

    And then we have some theme build. And perhaps you believe that they aren't important. I believe that for some people this is a very important aspect of the game. And therefore, you can't just ignore them. And it's not because you can't continue playing them after lvl 30, that other people don't.


    Then you aren't in a system with pure auto stats. And I agree with you that this is a good compromise. Yet believe this wasn't the subject of our discussion.

    Similar builds that are mentioned for diablo II. I'm thinking of a mele wizard that would probably have quite different stats allocation with manual stats, certainly with str req. on items - I this ain't the case, yet it could be a change in a different game, just pointing out what manual stats could change. - and more use for energy.
    Note that I'm talking about potential builds. That potential is important as we don't know them yet, and may never know them if we don't have manual stats.


    Because some things work for builds and not for other builds. You are looking at the build were it doesn't work, I look at the builds were it does work. It's a different mentality.



     
  17. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    To add to NASE's list of stat-dependent builds which were widely played and used extensively in PVP:

    1.09 BvB dueler. These builds used high strength to counter other barbs. Very effective vs the 1.09 cookiecutter WW barb.
     
  18. Valmy

    Valmy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    I agree with NASE. D2 wasn't a pvp game, and there are a lot of people like me too who were very fun playing non-typical builds. Also, hardcore players (specially caster oriented builds) would get a bit pissed off. And just people who wanted to make a Titan char (like the armageddon-Titan-wolf, without life and all in strength and run a lot) or the hunter druid with all in dexterity, or some bowazones (crystal-cannon ones, high damage, no life). Those are good builds who only noobs (or good players with not enough patience) stopped them at lvl 30, and experimented players go through hell difficulty with them.

    I'm not completely against auto-stats because we still don't know Diablo3 and can only speculate. But I think in 2009 (or 2010, or 2011) a third part of a game like this... it must be with the higher possible customization. Autostats system hurts a lot this customization in the long term. Absolutely.

    This game will be fun, sure, and we all will play it with fun. Granted. But we all prefer customization. Autostats is a clear backward step.

    Ofc I will play it and stay fun anywhere, because this is D3. But I don't like the autostat system and the only 4 keys- interface. Looks like the game will be build for children this time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2009
  19. teh_Thrasher

    teh_Thrasher IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    i liked how NASE said d2 wasnt a pvp game and then used it as a pvp example 2 lines later

    so by the looks of it. there were 2 builds that benefited from going outside the norm? "WOW lets change the WHOLE game just to help those 2 builds!"

    seriously... the auto stats are different for each character... im sure blizzard will take into account the different builds each class will be able to do thus making the stats more balanced for each build... for example, we can all say that the barbarian will be a melee character with high strength and high life no matter what crazy skill allocation u have in mind BECAUSE he is a melee fighter and melee attacks will have a bonus from strength... and the wizard will have high energy to increase his spell dmg BECAUSE he is a mage class not a warrior class.
     
  20. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

    Yet if I want to build a barbarian without block - assuming that it will need dex - I'm stuck with the same investment as a barbarian that wants max block. And at the same time, I have quite useless dexterity.


    P.S. 1) you need to take a course in calculus as we have already given you 5 different builds.
    2) What I don't get is why you don't want a game that has a similar as the stats system for those few builds. That you believe they can't combine it with some other system, I can understand. what I can't understand is that you can't see that this system has it's advantages.
     

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