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Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by stillman, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. stillman

    stillman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    Does anyone else wish we could put 30 points into a skill? Not just for outdoing d2, but also to give us more options. Suppose I want to only use 2 active skills and go crazy extreme with them. I should be allowed to do this. Of course, I would miss out on defensive skills and utility skills so I would suffer in some ways, but that is my choice.

    My worry is that with some skills only going up to 5-20 points max, we may be left with a wad of unused skill points or we will be forced to invest points into things we never intend on using.

    Basically, if we want to play a glass cannon model who only spams a couple of skills like in d2, we should be allowed to at some cost. It's good that Blizzard wants us to use 5 or more skills and switch alot, but should we all be forced to do this?
     
  2. Ishtor

    Ishtor Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    the thing i see is that there are so many skills, my issue was it took to many points to max a skill out and make it really useful, i rather have a bunch of skill then just a a few.
     
  3. Telzen

    Telzen Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    Cause if it could go that high the damage on the skill would be insane. PvE would be boring cause you would one shot everything. And PvP would require everyone to build that type of character and it would turn into who ever hits first wins. Is this how you want the game to be?
     
  4. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    -100 levels, i.e. 100 skill points.
    -Up to 15 points in a skill.
    -6-7 maxed skills.

    I am not seeing a problem here. You can still way overspecialize in one-two skills. Think how many passives there are now. For example, if I wanted to make a Wizard specialized on Magic Missile and Meteor...

    1. Magic Missile.
    2. Improved Magic Missile.
    3. Empowered Magic.
    4. Lightning Speed.
    5. Lethal Energy
    6. Arcane Power
    7. Penetrating Spells
    8. Efficient Magics
    9. Arcane Weakness
    10. Runic Might
    11. Magic Impact
    12. Meteor Storm
    13. Mana Recovery

    All of these spells directly increase either your firepower or your ability to sustain that firepower for Magic Missile and Meteor Storm. I.E. Pure glass cannon. And that's not counting survivability abilities/abilities, utility spells like Slow Time or Teleport or Stop, or other non-damage lethality boosting abilities like spells that Spell Speed or Arcane Distortion.

    I really don't see the problem with specializing here. Hell, unless most of these skills are five pointers, I am seeing an epic theorycraft storm on building the highest DPS Wizard by the "just right" combination of passive and active skill point distribution.
     
  5. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    That would be outdoing D2 in the wrong direction ... it just encourages mindless spam and cookie cutter builds ... making the game even far worse than D2 .. nobody wants that.

    Every skill will be useful (and there are tons of passives that enhance various skills) .. there is no such thing as things we never intend on using unless you want to make a completely screwed up and broken character .. in this case it doesn't make any difference if you spend your points or not.

    You can make a glass cannon if you want .. but it won't be a one skill spam glass cannon .. nobody wants spam in D3 .. and there are tons of passives that increase damage ... and many skills that can be used from range.

    You seem to have never checked the Skill trees in D3 or you would have noticed they are completely different from D2 so using D2 logic with them won't work at all ..... i think you could use this elaborate fan-made skill calculator to test things out and see for yourself.

    Here --> http://diablo-source.com/index.php?cmd=skill


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Right ... it opens doors for one skill spam and for overpowered characters .. which are two things i don't want in D3.

    Spot on .. you know .. the problem is that many people still treat skills in D3 using D2 logic .. it just doesn't work .. D3 skills work in a compeltely differernt way ... the passives are so many and so varied they cover a very wide range of possible builds ... and they are the perfect replacment for syringes from D2 ..... no matter what build a person is going for there will indeed be the passives he can invest in .... that's indeed why there is no need or meaning in giving active skills more points than 15 per skill or even less.



    ----------------------------------------------------------

    On a side note ... Bashiok did mention that most active skills will be capped at 10 levels .... but you can make a choice and somehow pick a couple of skills taking them beyond the cap ... so you will need to choose wisely which skills you want to increase the cap up to 15 or something ... how it will done that's something bashiok didn't mention .. but i think it will require some cost .. maybe gold or some extra skill points we get every 10 levels or something.

    Either way i do like the idea a lot XD


     
  6. stillman

    stillman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    No, the damage would not be insane because Blizzard can set the damage at whatever they want. My idea is not to max something out at lev 30 so it does one hit kills to everything and make PvM boring, but rather max it out at level 30 because I want that control over my skill points and it adds to the variety of what builds you can make. Why do you assume end of the world, game wrecking problems? Blizzard can simply balance the numbers to prevent those problems.

    Yes, I know there are alot of passives. Hopefully that will solve the problem. The meteor/magic missle example above is good. I'm just hoping we don't all have to hit 7 hotkeys every few seconds. That's fine for people who enjoy it, but I like to leave the keyboard alone in the end game grind.

    "..nobody wants spam in D3..."

    Actually, Kinght, I want spamming in d3. The idea is indeed following d2 logic (but not all the way), because spamming was fun for some of us. So in d3, I'm hoping we can still spam 2 skills, but the price will be higher than in d2. The glass cannon will be more fragile, have more problems with immunes than in d2, and struggle way more to get to high level. The reward in the end after all that is you get your easy-to-play character of simple mindedness that you can just chill out with and play with one hand after all your work and struggles. Maybe you like to switch between 7 different active skills, but we all have different likings.

    So, your character with 7 active skills flies through the game to hell mode (beating immuns easily), and struggles a bit in hell mode to level up. My character with 2 active skills struggles slowly through normal and nightmare, but finds it easier to level at hell mode once the annoyingly necessary equipment is had. Both of these builds struggle at some point, so what is the problem? Why is your way of playing prefered for everyone and mine has just got to go away forever? You want to struggle with hitting hotkeys or mousewheel while I want to struggle with building a character who doesn't have to. D3 should allow both types of builds as long as neither is too overpowered.

    Spamming 1-2 skills didn't ruin d2. Rather, a bunch of other things and poor design combined had its impact. Would spamming blessed hammers all day be a game breaking playstyle if it were ballanced better? Probably not. It also wouldn't be that bad if duped nigma runes weren't around AND it was balanced right.

    Edit: Max skill of 5 and even 10 just doesn't seem like role playing enough imo. I'd prefer more control and development. I mean, consider this: you level up from clvl 15-25 and max out an active skill with 10 points. Then, you spend levels 25-100 (that's 75 levels) not developing your main punch anymore. All you can do is soak up passives around it, which is nice, but it would be even nicer to feel more 'expert' in your favorite skill by pumping more points into it.

    I'm not going to feel like a magic missile expert if it happens to only go up to lev 5 or 10...especially since in d2 a skill could go up to 20. I would feel VERY expert if I could take it up to 30, having made the sacrifice of refusing other tempting skills.


     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  7. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    That balance isn't possible .. if you make lv 30 have lower damage it will make the first 20 or 15 level obsolete .... the idea itself isn't good .. you can't make something extreme then ask people to balance it .. .. it just doesn't work realistically ... sorry.

    Nobody is forcing you to use all 6 active skills ... you can still spend most of you points on one or two active skills and the rest on passives.

    Personally i hate mindless spam .. and i think many others do too (including the Devs who made the new skill bar) ... actually that type of broken spam focused character will almost not work in D3 .. it will be too hard to use them since you can't exploit the skill system and put all your points in one skill.

    So if you want to play a spam focused broken character in D3 be ready for the severe shortcomings.


    Not overpowered !!! ... Tell that to hammedins.

    Why create more problems and then struggle to solve them if you can solve the problems at their root ... something that goes extreme and involves spam will always be broken and game ruining in someway.


    Just because you can't spam or exploit the skill sytem by putting all your points in a single skill doesn't mean there won't be role playing in the game ... role playing isn't like that .. it doesn't have to involve extremes or spam.

    There are already tons of possible builds with the current D3 system .. just because they excluded extremely broken character it means in no way that there will be no roleplaying.

    Too much control allows for exploits, spam and game breaking tricks.

    You can take magic missile up to 15 (like bashiok mentioned) if you fav it over other skills ... and then invest in passives the enhance it and defensive skills.


    -----------------------------------------------------------


    PLUS .. you have to accept that D3 is a new game with many design differences and with a new skill system that works differently (and requires more balanced and rational design strategy not spam and exploiting) from D2 and no one should ever in any way expect to apply the same exact thinking on D3 skill system as he did in D2 .. otherwise .. what's the point of making D3 .. more of the same .. nobody wants that ... want more of the same go play D2.

    Being allowed to put all your points in one skill isn't a sacred privilege, doesn't fit with the D3 design philosophy nor is it good game design.


     
  8. stillman

    stillman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    I can agree with some of that, but it seems a little doom and gloom with you saying it can't possibly work, and the game will be 100% destroyed simply by allowing us to invest 10 more points in skills. Doesn't Blizzard have the brains to get the numbers right and prevent such a disaster? Of course they do.

    One part that you said which I don't understand is:

    "That balance isn't possible .. if you make lv 30 have lower damage it will make the first 20 or 15 level obsolete .... the idea itself isn't good .. you can't make something extreme then ask people to balance it .. .. it just doesn't work realistically ... sorry."

    Isn't this basically saying that maxing a skill at lev 15 is also making levels 5-10 obsolete? Or that max skill level 10 is making lev 1-5 obsolete? I don't see the diference if the whole thing is moved up to lev 30 skills. Maybe I didn't word it well, but what I imply is that skills go up to 30 max, each point adds more damage of course, but the damage is not so crazy that you can one hit kill everything or fly through the game too easily. Why do you see this as such a vast challenge for Blizzard on the balancing front?

    I admit a problem with my idea is that it is harder to max out a bunch of active skills if they go up to 30. You could only max out 3 and have a mere 10 points left (plus quest bonus skill points if they exist) over for passives. But we're talking about maxing stuff out here.

    This isn't about me wanting the game to be the same as d2.

    I'd like to mention another problem I see with the current system: it's just way too easy to max things out. It's looking like players will be choosing what active skills in a tree NOT to max. Any wizard (like a clod wizard for example) may be able to max magic missile just for the heck of it. Why not? It's only 15 skill points or w/e. I would like there to be a consequence of maxing something out. A mere 5, 10, or 15 skill points isn't much of an issue. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to see a hydra-magic missile-meteor-blizzard-desentegrate-electicute-tornado expert. I mean, all those maxed out on one wizard.
     
  9. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    Not everything can be balanced .. specially if it goes to extremes .. D3 Devs made the right choice by rounding up and softening the extreme cases from D3 .. it will make a much easier game to balance .... they don't have fairy dust or pixies that balance things up ... adding too much freedom and too much extreme case makes balance a hellish nightmare .. ask anyone in the gaming industry about that.

    Let's have an example ... it will show that it isn't only a matter of balance .. but also a matter of sense of achievement.

    We will have two cases here.

    -If you make 100 levels equal to 5 levels in end power (both gives you the same power in the end) .... the first 50 points of the 100 levels will feel like a waste of time and will give no sense of achievement or advancement whatsoever.

    -If you don't make the 100 levels equal to the 5 levels in end power (100 levels gives you much more power than the 5 levels in the end) then the 100 levels upgrade will be abused to ridiculous limits and will damage the game balance heavily at high levels.

    Either way it will be problematic .. IMO it ain't worth it.

    There are several points here.

    1-We don't know how fast will leveling up be .. it could be slower than in D2 .. so getting 10 or 15 points to put in one skill could take some serious time .. and during it you will be missing on enhancing the more useful passives (since they affect multiple skills.

    2-D3 is designed to encourage multiple skill usage (both defensive and offensive) .. that a core part of its design .. you can specialize in one or two offensive skills but still you will have many defensive skill to fill up the 5 or 4 other slots.

    3-There won't be such thing as a "hydra-magic missile-meteor-blizzard-desentegrate-electicute-tornado all around expert Wizard".. why !!! .. because in order to master Hydra you first have to remove it's 10 point cap and make it 15 (and you will only be able to do this to a limited number of skills and at a cost that isn't revealed yet) ... then you will have to invest points in every passive skill that makes Hydra more effective ... see .. that's just mastering Hydra ... it is going to require a lot of time and effort to master two or three offensive skills specially if they are from differernt skill trees (since passives are tree focused).

    4-Even if two players master Hydra ... each one of them will use differernt skill runes with his Hydra ability so it will work differently.

    For the second time i recommend you stop thinking in D2 logic and view things from D3 perspective .. and check the D3 skill calculator here http://diablo-source.com/index.php?cmd=skill .. try playing around with the passives and various skills to really understand how things will work in D3.


    ----------------

    Reminds me that D1 had stats caps .. think of the skill caps as something similar .. at least in D3 there will be ways to break the cap and increase points up to 15 or 20.


     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  10. Akse

    Akse Banned

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    Could probably be difficult to balance all these. There could arise certain combinations that could be really unbalanced.
     
  11. SlechtWeerBeer

    SlechtWeerBeer Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    More levels != more power. They can reduce the levelcap of D2 to 33; just triple the exp per level, # stats and skill points.
    If you want to put 30 points into one skill to get from 1-5 dmg to 666-1332, and I can do the same with 10 points, wouldn't I, theoretically, be better off?
     
  12. Valamyr

    Valamyr Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    More options?!

    If the possibility to dump everything into a couple exists people will all do it for the sake of sheer killing power. It would do exactly the opposite; it would take your options away.

    Case in point, how many people in D2 run around with main skills not at 20? Nobody. People will always maximize for sheer killing power.

    The most "more options" option would be to cap every skill at one point. Everyone would then use skills that fit the situation instead of pigeonholing themselves. But since juggling with 30 skills is hard, a compromise can be reached around 5-7, which means skill caps between 5 and 15 points. Its for the best, IMO. You want several maxed skills, not just two.

    After all, the game's monsters will always be balanced accordingly. If theres level 30 skills, the monsters will be too hard for those with level 15 skills.



     
  13. 5zigen

    5zigen Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    Ugh.

    OP, you are asking for less skill variety not more.

    You are also asking for very boring gameplay, spamming 1 or 2 skills? That isn't the type of gaming blizz should be promoting, they should be working on game that promotes using several skills because the game will become less repetitive and therefore have a more broad appeal.

    If you have the option of "maxing" 2 or 3 skills with all of your skill points, then the way to get the MOST killing power or speed will be to max those skills... So essentially you are asking that the most powerful characters be "One trick ponies" which will ultimately result in less builds.

    Look at it this ways, say there are 15 viable (active) skills to rely on for each character. If the most "powerful" builds are maxing 2 skills, you have 15 choose 2, or 105 builds potential. If you have builds where 4 skills are "maxed" on the other hand you have 15 choose 4, or 1365 potential builds.

    No matter how you slice it, you are going to end up with less build variety.

    The system you ask for COULD work if there is a really agressive cooldown system, so that if you want to max your two powerful skills that's fine but you can only cast them every 15 or 20 seconds or something. That would probably lead more to frustration and boredom, however, and not have the intended effect of increasing build variety, but instead people would feel obligated to max skills, but then feel frustrated when their character didn't work in an ideal fashion.
     
  14. sbn

    sbn Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    The finite details get a little boring, but allow me to observe that before we had synergies, there was much more variety in characters. The issue as I see it is not that the number goes up to 30, for that seems like we are getting into a Spinaltap a la the amp level is 11.

    Back in 1.09 if you made a sorceress, as the best example, you always had enough skills fill out at least dual elements. Everyone forget we use to have all the different combos, and how many skills like Firewall have now gone the way of the Dodo? Because the luxury to spend points is no longer there as the synergies are addressed. It is the nature of the game and player to max out the skill, including the synergy, to obtain the most effective damage. Once we could put 20 points into one tree, and another 20 into another. Now, we put 20 into skill #1, then 20+ into it's supporting synergy. Yet those extra 20+ skill points only enhance skill #1, but we never do use the other skills.
     
  15. stillman

    stillman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    Most, maybe even all of those problems can be solved with one simple thing: we could get loads of bonus skills from quests so we get 140+ skills instead of 110 like in d2.

    So everyone is happy. You guys are happy because it's essentially exaclty the same as it is now where you can max out many skills for the variety and no one is compelled to dump all their points into 2 skills. I'm happy because I get the feel that I can put more points into my skills and have more control and development. And everyone is REALLY happy about getting more quest skill points because it makes quests more worthwhile.

    So this would just scale everything up. You get more bonus points to put into your skills, and the max a skill can go is higher. Same game, bigger numbers. It's really no different than the way it already is, it just feels better. No offense to WoW players, but I never liked how in WoW, at least early on AFAIK, you can't invest many points into a skill and d3 kind of looks like it's utilizing the same scheme. I don't want to put 5, 10, or 15 points in something then move on and never look at it again.

    Essentially, what some of you are saying is 30 skills max is bad because it may as well be 20 or 10 for simplicity sake. The other arguments are good, but that one is the same as saying 5 skill points max is too many because it may as well be 3. 3 is simpler and easier for Blizzard.

    Role playing is partly about character/skill development. Putting 30 skill points into a skill is more devolpment over time than putting 5, 10 or 20 points into a skill. It's just that simple. Players having to invest more over a longer time makes them look into that skill more often instead of maxing it out at 5 and ignoring it for 95 levels thereafter, for example. It makes them feel more connected to their skills.
     
  16. SlechtWeerBeer

    SlechtWeerBeer Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    With passives and actives, it's likely you'll end up with ~12 skills. *20=240 skill points. 30->360, but it's less likely you'll max all of them (that's why I took 20; some 1-pointers, maxed skills, half-maxed). Either way, you'll need either a lot of levels (meaning a /p8 zombie in the Blood Moor levels you up twice), or a looot of quests giving skill points. The latter isn't bad necessarily, but the quests should be varied enough to not be boring/tedious.

    Progression isn't necessarily in # of 'points' invested. Try measuring in numbers, percentages. If you go from 1 to 10 in 10 points, you progress 1 every point, or 10% (of total progression). If you do that in 5 points, you progress 2 every point, or 20%. It's also more satisfying seeing your Fireball go from 5 to 6.5k than from 5 to 5.2k, imo.

    Bashiok also stated it's possible to raise the cap to 10 and 15 for skills, so you'll "ignore" (very bad choice of words there, tbh) it for only 85-90 levels :p They could mimic WCIII a bit in terms of skills: 1 slvl per 2clvl. It makes progression last longer, which is something you seem to want. Dearly. That's a better median than having your way imo, mainly because your way isn't a compromise at all.

    I prefer 15 or lower because I don't like clicking the same skill icon in a list for half the game. I wouldn't let D3 on the shelves because they raise the skillcap to 30, though.


     
  17. stillman

    stillman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    There are solutions to those problems as well. If you're worried about way to many quest bonus skills, then the 30 max skills can only be for actives or passives, one or the other, whichever Blizzard wants. They could also give you 2 skill points every other level. So that's around 150 skill points at lev 100 right there. The solutions are out there.

    What I had in mind is the opposite of the "1 slvl per 2clvl" you mentioned. This would be too punishing imo. When we say drawn out development, I mean it as a reward of having more to develop, not less, over a longer time. I mean the length of devolpment time is not the main goal, rather the goal is to have more points to invest. Everyone feels better when they drop another point into a skill, even if it's a low gain in damage.
     
  18. SlechtWeerBeer

    SlechtWeerBeer Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Skills maxed at 5-20...I want more.

    In the end you'll most likely choose 2 skills to put points in simultaneously, so I don't think you'll actually notice. But oh well, to each his own. I prefer to see damage numbers over skill points, and you prefer skill points over numbers.

    I think in the end, we'll be satisfied anyhow (or the game completely flunks :p )


     

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