skill respecs

[NASE]

Re: skill respecs

My advice ... learn to live with it cause both of them were added for a good reason and probably aren't going anywhere.

Autostats may be a good thing. Yet there are many things to say about a possible implementation - just like with respecs.

If you're suggesting that there wouldn't be rushing, dupes, or cookie cutters then why are you assuming that blizzard can't make a working talent respec system. You're saying it's a different game, then why are you assuming it's a bad thing right off the bat?

Full respecs is a bad things. Yes, I'm sure of it. Limited respecs may be a good things yet I don't envision them as needed, not when you can level a character very fast (I assume this will be the same, certainly not mmo'ish).

Full respecs are a bad thing because they ruin the identity of a character. Playing a character means that you start at lvl 1 (lets hope it's more interesting then in DII) at learn to overcome the obstacles that are in your way. This means that you have to play the game with the same build*.

Look at it this way. Lets say you made a fire sorcerer and you come to hell for the first time. You notice that killing things is hard because of the many fire immune monsters. So you decide to respec your skills and try out a cold build. Just to notice that there are cold immune monster and that it doesn't work. So what do you do, you respec your skills and try a lightning build. Just to notice that it doesn't work either.
And then you end up making a hammerdin.

Don't get me wrong, it's a bad design decision that hell is filled with immunes and that there isn't a fair warning in nightmare. Yet what I describe is redicolous yet very possible with full respecs. It makes the game a joke.


*: I'm talking about build changes. I'm not talking about noticing the meteor isn't really what you are after at lvl 26 and then removing that point. That may even be a good thing.

 

[Krugar]

Re: skill respecs

*: I'm talking about build changes. I'm not talking about noticing the meteor isn't really what you are after at lvl 26 and then removing that point. That may even be a good thing.

Notice however that I highly doubt Blizzard will want to design a game that will end up becoming a "respec treaty" on character building. What I mean is that if the playerbase starts writing D3 character build guides that involve respec at one time or another during the leveling process, Blizzard will almost certainly consider this to be a failure on their part.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: skill respecs

Autostats may be a good thing. Yet there are many things to say about a possible implementation - just like with respecs

How they will implement both ideas is really what's going to determine if things will work or fail :thumbup:

Don't get me wrong, it's a bad design decision that hell is filled with immunes and that there isn't a fair warning in nightmare. Yet what I describe is redicolous yet very possible with full respecs. It makes the game a joke.

I get your point, personally i don't want full respecs either .... and i'm sure Blizz aren't stupid to implement unrestrained respecs .. the only point is how are they going to restrain/control the respecs so it doesn't get abused.

My opinion like before ... linking it to character level up .. this way it can be used to fix minor to medium mistakes but won't allow for abuse or full build change ... but i don't want to talk about it any further until we hear how Blizz plans to do it .. i doubt we will hear about that any time before Blizzcon-2009 though :coffee:

*: I'm talking about build changes. I'm not talking about noticing the meteor isn't really what you are after at lvl 26 and then removing that point. That may even be a good thing.

Glad we agree that it can be a good thing. :yes:

 

[TarnishedHope]

Re: skill respecs

The entire idea of respecialization does not belong in an ARPG, unless Blizzard intend to let it take over 2+ month to reach endgame level.

People support it because it ease people into the game even more. The entire concept was established for MMOs, and MMOs only, either justified through monthly fee or seperate payments.

Diablo 3 is an ARPG. Chances are, regardless of restricting, respecialization WILL be abused to hell, if implemented.

As to the whole idea that Blizzard won't unrestrained respecialization... just look at their other release, World of Warcraft, where respecialization made a joke of the game. You might choose to deny it, but Diablo 3 inherited alot of the features offered on World of Warcraft, and respecialization could very well be another.

:hang:

 

[jacobgold]

Re: skill respecs

In what way is the concept of a full respec terrible?

You're ignoring its potential implementations and you come off like you assume it will be as easy as a clicking a button.

 

[TarnishedHope]

Re: skill respecs

Or perhaps it is you who are ignorant, thinking only of the benefit without considering the less desirable prospect of the system.

Every change will most likely be a two-sided sword, and one could only consider the consequences. Many examples and reasons were given in the thread & forum. You only need to take the time to click through them.

In fact, few good reasons were given to support full respecialization, other than restating the subject matter itself.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: skill respecs

The entire idea of respecialization does not belong in an ARPG, unless Blizzard intend to let it take over 2+ month to reach endgame level.

People support it because it ease people into the game even more. The entire concept was established for MMOs, and MMOs only, either justified through monthly fee or seperate payments.

Diablo 3 is an ARPG. Chances are, regardless of restricting, respecialization WILL be abused to hell, if implemented.

As to the whole idea that Blizzard won't unrestrained respecialization... just look at their other release, World of Warcraft, where respecialization made a joke of the game. You might choose to deny it, but Diablo 3 inherited alot of the features offered on World of Warcraft, and respecialization could very well be another.

:hang:

Sigh .. the reason respecs aren't restrained in WoW is because its an MMO ... you need to read what you wrote because that's exactly what you said yourself.

There is no reason for Blizz to make the respecs in Diablo 3 unrestrained because they will be in D3 for a completely different reason than in MMOs ... simple and clear.

And taking ideas from WoW doesn't mean that they copy paste them blindly ... that's not true at all ... i'm tired of all the WoW hate and bashing so i will stop here because you know very well that if Blizz was that stupid they wouldn't have been where they are now.

 

[TarnishedHope]

Re: skill respecs

Sigh .. the reason respecs aren't restrained in WoW is because its an MMO ... you need to read what you wrote because that's exactly what you said yourself.

There is no reason for Blizz to make the respecs in Diablo 3 unrestrained because they will be in D3 for a completely different reason than in MMOs ... simple and clear.

And taking ideas from WoW doesn't mean that they copy paste them blindly ... that's not true at all ... i'm tired of all the WoW hate and bashing so i will stop here because you know very well that if Blizz was that stupid they wouldn't have been where they are now.

Or maybe you need to start reading what I actually wrote. I stated that the concept was only consider acceptable on Warcraft due to the long leveling curve, and the nature of MMOs. Tell me, exactly what type of restrain can actually be put into an ARPG, and not easily ignored? Gold? Item? Playtime? Be more specific, instead of just randomly stating the obvious.

As for the second part of your post... Tell me, for what exact reason is respecialization in World of Warcraft? To allow people to tryout builds and respecialize for different purposes. With the strictly defined talent system World of Warcraft in mind, players cannot be realistically expected to spend months to remake a character, simply because of one blunder.

Diablo III? Chances are, the leveling curve will be nowhere near as steep as World of Warcraft, and there are no clearly defined class mechanic, beyond the basic playstyle.

You're right in claiming that respecialization would serve for a different purpose in Diablo III, but it's a lesser one. Almost lazy, really.

As for the last part, I never claimed what you've accused me of. I'm merely pointing out that Diablo III has adopted alot of features from World of Warcraft, and perhaps respecialization would be one too many. People can continue to assume that whatever restriction implemented can prevent abuse, but realistically, the only surefire method I can fethom is monetary.

In fact, Diablo III would probably end up being the ONLY ARPG with respecialization, and without a good reason.

As for having faith in Blizzard, I do, and their track record warrants my trust. Yet, that does not at all mean they're infallible, especially of the recent years. :coffee:

 

[jacobgold]

Re: skill respecs

What type of full respec can you not easily ignore? The kind that you cant just trade for and have to spend time on. Lets say it takes 20 hours to get to level 80, but only 12 to respec. I think thats fair. You dont get a second character out of it, but you also didnt have to spend as much time.

Also, some people like to keep the same character name.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: skill respecs

Or maybe you need to start reading what I actually wrote. I stated that the concept was only consider acceptable on Warcraft due to the long leveling curve, and the nature of MMOs. Tell me, exactly what type of restrain can actually be put into an ARPG, and not easily ignored? Gold? Item? Playtime? Be more specific, instead of just randomly stating the obvious.

I have already been in many discussions about what sort of restrains can be put on respecs ... there are countless ways to do it and insure it serves it's purpose in the game ... but there is no point wasting time guessing without Blizz making a statement about how they plan to implement it .. that's just a BIG WASTE OF TIME :yes:

It can all of the above, one of them or maybe even none of them (i.e something we didn't think of).

As for the second part of your post... Tell me, for what exact reason is respecialization in World of Warcraft? To allow people to tryout builds and respecialize for different purposes. With the strictly defined talent system World of Warcraft in mind, players cannot be realistically expected to spend months to remake a character, simply because of one blunder.

Yeah .. that's why it exists in WoW .. doesn't mean that putting it in D3 will be for the same reason.

First and foremost it is there for casual newcomer gamers who never played Diablo before (they do exist out there .. believe it),

Second .. they do exist because of the need to fix unintentional mistakes,

Third .. because of the random nature of the game .. adapting has to be more flexible .. if one main skill you invested in becomes useless because of something random ( new random monster type or whatever) that's not good game design .. you should be able to switch some point of it into something more useful without having to throw away the character ... that's adapting .. asking the person to throw away the character because of something out of his hand is like asking a group of people who immigrated to a new place with new environment or climate to kill themselves and get resurrected just to adapt to the new environment or climate.

And there are many other subtle reasons to why a system like restrained respecs needs to be in D3 .. what needs to be known is that it isn't there for the same reason it is in WoW and that's why it will work differently.

Diablo III? Chances are, the leveling curve will be nowhere near as steep as World of Warcraft, and there are no clearly defined class mechanic, beyond the basic playstyle.

For old diablo players .. maybe it will be simple ... for new comers .. there will be a steep learning curve.

In fact, Diablo III would probably end up being the ONLY ARPG with respecialization, and without a good reason.

Sorry .. you missed this one by a mile ... it's not the only one at all ... where have you been !!? .. you didn't try "Titan's Quest" !!? .. i'm pretty sure many ARPGs out there already has Respecs ... it would be foolish of Blizz not to keep up with everyone.

As for having faith in Blizzard, I do, and their track record warrants my trust. Yet, that does not at all mean they're infallible, especially of the recent years.

Hmmm .. only time will tell :coffee:

 

[NASE]

Re: skill respecs

Tell me, exactly what type of restrain can actually be put into an ARPG, and not easily ignored? Gold? Item? Playtime? Be more specific, instead of just randomly stating the obvious.

Leveled based. You can change 15 skills points yet only within 10 levels after you gained them. People can experiment to some degree and they are encouraged to spend points when they get them. Cause if you wait, you might not get to respec that point.

Second .. they do exist because of the need to fix unintentional mistakes,

There is no need. If you do it, it's because you want to. And if that mean you have to rebuild, that's part of the decision, it that mistake worth the time of rebuilding.
Note that rebuilding will be in the game anyway. New gear will (should) change builds around, probably, encouraging rebuilds at sometime anyway.

Third .. because of the random nature of the game .. adapting has to be more flexible .. if one main skill you invested in becomes useless because of something random ( new random monster type or whatever) that's not good game design

One skill will never become useless. Unless you do stupid things like magic weapon on a range wizard. Or frenzy on a two handed barbarian; There won't be a monster or place where a certain skills is useless, and even if it is, the idea was to have more attack skills to get around this problem? And probably, in the next dungeon, that skill will be very useful.
So there ain't that need. the majority of skill will be useful.
Assumptions, I know yet this is how I feel blizzard is planning the game.

it would be foolish of Blizz not to keep up with everyone.

That assuming the others are correct. What if all other companies jumped of a bridge, should Blizzard jump with them?

 

[Smash]

Re: skill respecs

I hope that Blizzard will not take your ideas guys of respec limitation as they are ridiculous stupid.
In TQ you need to pay to get point back but there is no limitation other that how much money you have, cost is reasonable and it is working very good in game.
I don't want be afraid of putting points in to skill that i may not like or it may not work as intended etc.

I think most of you guys are this one who just rush game, xp leecher, tp screemers etc. and do not enjoy it, do you think that once i finish game with my char i will respec it? No i will start again with other idea in my mind because if playing the game from beginning to end is not fun means they failed. I will not destroy old one to create new one because i like have nice pool of chars to play depend on mood and i enjoy playing the game again and again and again on high lvl or from beggining.

Your whole debate bring me memories about old games that allowed player to saved in checkpoints only (mostly consoles ports to pc) some people screams that games shouldn't allow saves in any moment because it too easy lol.

 

[NASE]

Re: skill respecs

I think most of you guys are this one who just rush game, xp leecher, tp screemers etc. and do not enjoy it, do you think that once i finish game with my char i will respec it?

No.

Do I think others will?
Yes. And as you said yourself, that's not how the game shoud be.

I think most of you guys are this one who just rush game, xp leecher, tp screemers etc.

Is that an acquisition?

I don't want be afraid of putting points in to skill that i may not like or it may not work as intended etc.

Limited level based respecs to the rescue.

 

[LucianDK]

Re: skill respecs

To make an example, Guild wars allowed xp based stat refund points in the beginning. But that was axed because it was a high frustration to keep you from easilly retooling your char. I am glad they got rid of it.

So they made it that you only could rearrange stat points in outposts, but with no limitations there. You had to live with your choices once starting to play.

 

[NASE]

Re: skill respecs

From what I know about Guild wars, I know that you can't compare them to each other.

In guild wars, you need different skills depending on what place you want to visit and what party you will be playing with.
In diablo II(I), the party you are playing with is constantly changing, and the synergies aren't that big. The maps are not that different and there are a lot of builds that can be effective in each map.

So the comparison doesn't go.

 

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Re: skill respecs

From what I know about Guild wars, I know that you can't compare them to each other.

In guild wars, you need different skills depending on what place you want to visit and what party you will be playing with.
In diablo II(I), the party you are playing with is constantly changing, and the synergies aren't that big. The maps are not that different and there are a lot of builds that can be effective in each map.

So the comparison doesn't go.

True. Partially. Nowadays, you can run around with one build and kill anything (assuming PvE). It's a nice system nontheless.