Skill Points in Shadow Master or Venom or...

[dallemar]

Skill Points in Shadow Master or Venom or...

Thought I'd put this question out for some experienced thoughts.

I use a kicker assassin and while at first I was thinking I'd use the assassin 1.11 armor to get a free lvl 15 venom cast and use those points elsewhere, I've since decided I might want to go Guardian Angel with the armor. So - now I'm wondering if I should put skill points into venom - or would it be more wise to have a high level shadow master who could help me out and take out the FE and CE monsters.

I kick a lot... kicking all the time... but... if the Shadow Master does massive damage, I could see the advantage of using her instead of loading up on venom.

The other thought would be to steal some from DS (which I only use for the width of the Corpse Explosion not the Lit. dmg.) and spread it across, maybe 10 DS, 10 Venom, 10 Shadow master....

Thoughts? (Not much experience in hell as I've died twice the day after I entered hell... I've since made my build include FADE and not BoS.)

Thanks.

 

[ilkori]

What equipment are you using now? Making a kicker work is bringing together your skills, equipment, merc, and playing style. The merc is optional, the rest aren't.

The Master is a better tank than damage dealer. At level 17 she is a veritable wall. Only the worst packs will get through her. I'm trying a build with a lower level Master (11 or 13), but I haven't really played in Hell much. She will do damage, but nothing compared to a player or high-end merc. In other words, she can kill a few things, but she does not attack quickly and doesn't always make the smartest choices.

Fade is basically a must unless you can get your hands on a Stormshield for the Damage Reduction. Then an Um rune or PDiamond go in the socket.

I always have one point in Venom, but maxing is optional. Speaking of which, what is your skill setup now?

 

[dallemar]

I always have one point in Venom, but maxing is optional. Speaking of which, what is your skill setup now?

Well, very basic. DTalon at 18 (if I get four plus skills, I'll bump it to 20 for the extra kick). 1 in DS, 1 in MB (which is very useful). 1 in Shadow Master, 12 and rising in fade - and all the skills leading up to those.

A bunch of saved skills so I can put them into what seems best. I'm considering 1 in BladeFury so that I can stand away from the FE's.


Not sure a Shadow Master is worth it just as a take because she's easy enough to recast and tank some more... though tanking a Boss might be nice.

Venom in theory is doing about 2k poison damage every attack (500 with 4 kicks... I'd have to look that up to be sure, but something like that if maxed)... seems potentially good.

Do you notice a big difference with the DS explosions with a wider radius? I definitely have noticed that you do NOT want a Holy Freeze (or cold) merc if you are using DS at all. Not enough bodies left over.

 

[ilkori]

I've never had a problem with Holy Freeze cutting out bodies - the shatter % is only around 1/4 or so.

The larger radius is useful in places with undead and undead raisers. The smaller radius works also - but if you are doing a pure kicker it's one of the best places to put points. Smaller radius usually means you end up recasting the trap more often, which tends to suck mana.

Blade Fury is a must for the basic kicker. It helps with FEs and IM.

Remember that poison damage is done as damage per time. The damage listed on Venom is over 10 frames, and you should be kicking every 3 frames with your main drag, with a slightly longer pause in between rounds. Poison doesn't stack damages, it resets the timer, so you will be doing a pretty consistent 1200ish damage per second from the poison. It can help, just not tons.

The Master becomes much more powerful if you can cast her at level 11 (most of her magical equipment becomes rare at that point). Levels 13 and 17 are the next two spots (rare ring then rare ammy). How you use her is up to you, but I become pretty attached to my merc and buff shadow.

 

[dallemar]

Thanks for tips.

You know, outside of DT and Fade, then, it sounds like sort of splitting the rest between venom/DS/and SM might be a decent idea. or favoring DS. I had 20 DS on a kicker and it did seem to spread the damage a good deal... was getting that last 10% of life out of the monsters which was really an issue which is why I was thinking venom.

Now... to clarify..... I had thought that all poison stacked exponentially. Does it just not with venom? So every time you kick it replaces the last curse?

'cause with 10 frames and kicking in... 7 and then 3 you should get 2 in the first and then about 3 in the second 10 frames.

But there is no exponential bonus for it?

 

[Xena1985]

just my 2 cents here maxing venom is not worth it 20 skill points for only an odd 500 dmg ?? i have a poison mancer that does 5k and with equipment has -80% enemy resistance. with poison he can kill in hell but only with the lower resist curse it is slow going otherwise relying on merc and corpse explosion. dont get me wrong in a player 1 game my char ownz pvm even in hell but 500 poison dmg from venom with no - resists is laughable in hell.
this is only based on my expierience as a L87 poison necro perhaps i am missing something here. IMO your better of putting those skills into synergizing whatever traps u use fade BoS or synergizing your melee attack

 

[dallemar]

just my 2 cents here maxing venom is not worth it 20 skill points for only an odd 500 dmg ?? i have a poison mancer that does 5k and with equipment has -80% enemy resistance. with poison he can kill in hell but only with the lower resist curse it is slow going otherwise relying on merc and corpse explosion. dont get me wrong in a player 1 game my char ownz pvm even in hell but 500 poison dmg from venom with no - resists is laughable in hell.
this is only based on my expierience as a L87 poison necro perhaps i am missing something here. IMO your better of putting those skills into synergizing whatever traps u use fade BoS or synergizing your melee attack

The only thing missed for a Dtaloner is that the damage is multiplied by the number of kicks - so 500 x 5 kicks or so would be 2500 pDamage per attack. On the other hand, you make a very good point about the resists. Maybe someone's suggestion of 1 point (since you'll have face already most likely) makes sense since with some plus skills you might get an extra 100 per kick, so 500 per attack.... but attack speed over all is relative too when compared to other classes with other skills.

Lots of Assassins talk about getting Tiger Strike maxed to go in for the final blow - but I calculated once that a lvl 20 DS attacking compared to a lvl 20 tiger strike with lvl 20 DS over a 4 second sequence of attacking is about the same - but with DS you get the advantage of % to cast and crushing blows.


Since you are a Necro - what do you think of the Bone Spirit with NO synergies at lvl 20? I ask because with a 30% chance to cast rate on the Runeword Oath - that means, it will cast about 2 lvl 20 bone spirits per attack. Seems pretty cool. Are they effective? Are they effective if your target is a leg's distance from you?

 

[Xena1985]

yeah i guess with 5 kicks it's slightly better i missed that , however would it not be better to put those skills elsewhere for a better advantage. when it come to Necro's bone spirit, it is a waste of 20sp not synergized completely useless in hell. the most common way to play a bone necro (not sure if this works by now they should have removed the marrowwalk bug but i am just getting back to diablo 2 after a long summer break looking to start an assasin ) is to put 20 in bone spear 20 in spirit let marrow synergize bone prison, and from the summon tree 20 in raise skeleton and skeleton mastery and 1 in the rest exept fire golem using + to skills to get high claygolem and rivives. gives you a good balance of meat shields and pure offense . although i have seen pure bonemancers that put those 40 points from the summon tree into bone wall and teeth

edit: it is definitly a good ideato put 1 point in venom we agree here with the + skills he can probably get around about 1000 dmg at least over 0.4 seconds for free (according to your calculations which i trust) but if it were me i would not max it. to better state my point: I have i high level poison necro with decent equipment that specializes in dealing high amounts of poison dmg to the whole screen. venom works melee so it is not an option to just poison a whole screen and reapeat every 2 seconds. my necro works quite well in hell, however an assasin simply cannot match a necro for poison attacks. the point being the only time i spend 20sp on a skill is if specializing in it and or synergizing it will make it a strong attack able to take out monsters quickly in hell. venom no matter how many points you dump into it will make it a support skill, imagine playing only with venom for example. it would be like maxing out poison explosion as a necro but not nova or dagger.

 

[sirmessbu]

I dont have big assasin knowledge but isnt venom and fade taking over each other?

Then why use the armor that cast venom on striking and take your fade away while ya fight vs souls.

According to this ya should only max venom and equip with more resist all.Thus leaving you with even more points for the shadow master.

If ya can have both fade and venom then please pardon my rumble.

 

[dallemar]

I dont have big assasin knowledge but isnt venom and fade taking over each other?

You can have venom and fade. You can't have Burst of Speed and Fade.


As for the bone spirit question - it wasn't a matter of spending skill points, this is for an assassin using the Oath which grants lvl 20 spirit with no synergy... 'cause you're an assassin. So, was wondering if they tend to be effective considering two ought to generate for every one attack.

 

[sirmessbu]

Ty for the answer,I might start an assasin next.

 

[ilkori]

Here's the nitty gritty on how poison works. There are two components - the damage rate, and the duration. The first frame of damage will always be applied, then it starts working on the regular damage rate. If a new poison source arrives, it will deal the first frame of poison damage, then choose whichever has the highest poison rate, and deal that damage until its duration runs out.

Example:
That means if you do 250 damage over 10 seconds, that ends up as 25 damage per second, or one damage per frame. If it gets reapplied once every 5 frames, you will deal this much damage each frame:

1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-.....

The 2 is where the damage overlaps and you get a temporary double application. There is no exponential when it comes to poison, just a direct rate.

 

[Xena1985]

OMG you just cleared up every question I ever had on poisons, THANK YOU :worship:

 

[dallemar]

OMG you just cleared up every question I ever had on poisons, THANK YOU :worship:

So - to clarify - for the assassin dealing 450 dmg over .4 seconds per kick which is every 7/3/3/3/3 frames for a 5 kick Dtaloner...

The by frame damage for one second would be.... (left to right the kicks 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - then next attack) (Top to bottom is frame 1 to 25.)

18
18
18
18
18
18
18 + 18
18 + 18
18 + 18
18 + 18 + 18
00 + 18 + 18
00 + 18 + 18
00 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 18 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 00 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 00 + 18 + 18 + 18 (NEXT ATTACK)
00 + 00 + 18 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 00 + 00 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 00 + 00 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 00 + 00 + 18 + 18 + 18
00 + 00 + 00 + 00 + 18 + 18
00 + 00 + 00 + 00 + 18 + 18

end of one second total: 882 per second on a single attack and 990 per second on a continuous attack.

Is this right?

 

[ilkori]

No, the 7/3 kick is the common reference, but it would be more accurate to call it the 3/7 kick. The last one is the on that takes 7 frames. So, it'd be like this for a 5-kick round followed by a second:

0 (start of 1st kick)
0
0+18
18
18
18+18
18
18
18+18
18
18
18+18
18
18
18+18
18
18
18
18 (end of 1st kick)
18 (start of 2nd kick)
18
18+18
18
...
...

If you had a variable damage (which Venom does), it would be closer to this (assuming 16-18 per frame):

0
0
17
17
17+16
17
17
17+18
18
18
18+16
18
...
...