Silly Arizona

SaroDarksbane

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
Re: Silly Arizona

Damric: You might also add that if the illegal immigrants get a job at any normal company, they will likely pay income tax too.
 

Voorhees

Diabloii.Net Member
What would be your suggestion to help alleviate the problems caused by illegal immigrants - specifically the thousands of deaths caused by illegals each year and the roughly $38 billion dollar per year price tag associated with the DIRECT economic cost of illegals?

Aside from petulance, that is.
Legalize drugs and get rid of entitlement programs (or at least only let citizens participate). That's my knee-jerk answer.
My actual answer is that it really doesn't matter what you do with them if you can't secure the border. Ask them for papers. They don't have any. Deport them. They are back in a few weeks or so with a new name. Unless that process is free (and I doubt it is) it seems to me like added expense with little or no gain. This strikes me as something politicians are doing to appease the people with issues down there. They do this and then the get to be the man for a while but in the end it accomplishes nothing towards fixing anything and just ends up another law on the huge pile of frivolous legislation that's been dragging this country down for years.



 

Damric

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

Cow dung. The market would set itself right with regards to the jobs unfilled, and the state should have no right or reason to tamper with the minimum wage. Even if it did, the American economy collapsing due to hyper inflation is pure insanity. You get hyper inflation solely when base-necessity goods are scarce, like in Zimbabwe today. You might feel the economic cost of getting rid of illegals, but to claim that the economy would collapse is silly.

Count your blessings that your social services don't have to spend nearly as much on illegals as the ones in Europe do.



Any logical reason why?
The difference between us, Europe, and Zimbabwe, is that our economy is almost entirely based on services. Our farmers don't make any profit anymore, and have been subsidized by our government for decades, and that's with underpaying illiegals to do the work. Our industry is practically non-existent compared to what it was 25-50 years ago. We have outsourced anything worth making. Our economy is already on a respirator, and it seems like you would like to pull the plug on us.



 

Thomh

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

The difference between us, Europe, and Zimbabwe, is that our economy is almost entirely based on services. Our farmers don't make any profit anymore, and have been subsidized by our government for decades, and that's with underpaying illiegals to do the work. Our industry is practically non-existent compared to what it was 25-50 years ago. We have outsourced anything worth making. Our economy is already on a respirator, and it seems like you would like to pull the plug on us.
And that is different from Europe? How exactly?

The numbers in Europe usually varies between 70-80% of the work force in the service sector while the US is in the upper part of that range at 78-80% if I`m not mistaken. I think it`s a myth that you don`t produce anything over there:)


 

Talga Vasternich

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

That is a good point. I just have a little question on the side.
What if the illegal immigrant had a valid driver`s licence from his home country? [snip - truncated to cut down the size of the post]
It`s a tricky one.
It is a tricky one. I'd have to ask questions before trying to answer it.
How are accidents handled in your country? Do all individual drivers have insurance? Who pays for damaged people and property when there is an accident? Are deaths compensable through insurance or lawsuit?
Without knowing the answers to these, I'd say they weren't breaking the law concerning driving a motor vehicle illegally if they can produce a valid driver's license from their home country, but would be personally liable for damages (or their insurance carrier would be liable). Locating the person after the accident could be a hell of a problem, though.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the original post. I am challenging the authority of anyone who says I need to carry identification to walk down the street.
Ask me for identification and you can kiss it.
I took this out-of-order to address the original topic.
I don't know how old you are, but how do you get into bars/clubs if you tell whoever asks you for ID to kiss it? What do you say to stores who ask you for ID when making a purchase with check, credit, or debit cards?
You do also understand that there is no fine or criminal charge in the Arizona law for not having ID, just a delay until your identification can be verified, right?
As consumers, they pay an aweful lot in sales tax, and indeed most pay into payroll taxes such as SSI. I've seen this firsthand with the massive amount of illegal temp workers I work beside in the shipbuilding industry.
Damric: You might also add that if the illegal immigrants get a job at any normal company, they will likely pay income tax too.
The first link (here) I posted includes the figure for the total paid into the federal and state governments (page 5) and subtracts it from the total when calculating the net cost of illegal immigrants. You'll notice that the income tax paid by illegal immigrants is negative.
note: for purposes of the study, it was assumed that ALL illegal immigrants were working above-the-board jobs and were subject to payroll withholdings (page34) while the SSA estimates that 1/2 of all illegal immigrants do not have taxes withheld (Social Security Advisory Board, Issue Brief No. 1, The Impact of Immigration on Social Security and the National Economy).

Now on to your links:
A summary of a conclusion without any statistics, numbers, references, or citations.
A link I completely agree with. The cost is not $338 billion, but I never claimed it was.
This link lists (among others) a link to a 2007 Congressional Budget Office report on illegal immigrants that states there is a net cost to both the federal and state governments and lists some state reporting on those costs, but does not give any national totals. For example, in Minnesota $79 million was spent on education of illegal immigrants for the 2003/2004 school year and $67 million was spent in New Mexico for the 2003/2004 school year for the education of illegal immigrants.
The rest of the link states they question the methodology and results of the study, but offers no numbers of its own.

1. It helps keep the economy moving by filling low-wage jobs.
It hurts workers by keeping wages artifically low. More spending and more income per capita = more taxes collected through income and sales taxes.
2. It provides a better life to individuals and families who enter the country illegally.
True, but I believe there is a cost to citizens and legal immigrants that far outweighs this. There are ways to immigrate legally.
3. It creates a pool of consumers for a variety of goods and services.
6. Illegal immigrants pay sales taxes.
7. Illegal residents, who are property owners, also pay real estate taxes.
True, but the average illegal individual/family have, on average, lower incomes than citizens and legal immigrants and pay, per capita, less of both taxes.
4. Farmers are able to plant and harvest less expensively.
This is more of a complaint against the government artificially keeping food prices low through subsidies.
5. Contributions to social security funds often go unclaimed.
True, but a false premise. There is a net loss to the federal budget due to illegal immigrants.
8. Millions of illegals rent properties in depressed areas where renters are hard to find.
Ever wonder why the areas are depressed? I live in a city that had a very good section of town become depressed in a matter of just a few years due to illegal immigrants. Property values went down in a market that was seeing historic home value growth... crime skyrocketed... stores closed due to theft and vandalism...etc.
9. They purchase real estate and generate commissions for agents and brokers.
Miniscule, but true.
10. Illegal immigrants benefit financial services through consumer loans.
Possibly true, I do not know about default percentages.
11. They open bank accounts that yield interest and dividends to bankers.
How does one open a bank account without a social security number?
12. Illegals purchase auto insurance and contribute to profit margins.
Any illegals who have purchased auto insurance will make claims just as any other policy holder would. Any policy in force has to be honored because it is illegal to discriminate against an illegal immigrant concerning a binding contract.
13. If we lost all of the illegal immigrant workers, our economy sould collapse from hyper inflation because we would have to raise the minimum wage, and all wages would need to scale accordingly to fill the job openings left by illegals.
Good theory. Have anything to back it up besides your opinion?
Legalize drugs and get rid of entitlement programs (or at least only let citizens participate). That's my knee-jerk answer.
Legalizing drugs may help with one aspect of illegal immigration, but I think its a bad end.
I'm all for getting rid of entitlement programs for illegal immigrants. I believe legal immigrants should enjoy the benefits of these social programs.
My actual answer is that it really doesn't matter what you do with them if you can't secure the border.
QFT

Seems like a lot of people are getting sick of the lax enforcement by the federal government and are trying to do something about it.



 
Last edited:

Talga Vasternich

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

Talga sounds like a very ethnic name. Documentation por favor?
I have my driver's license and Social Security card in my wallet at all times, and my wallet is either in my pocket or on the dresser next to my bed, so is never out of arm's reach. My wife (who is a legal immigrant who has become a citizen) and I both keep out passports in our safe.

Talga Vassternich is an idea taken from a book:
"Deserve victory. Be justified in your convictions. Be completely committed. Earn what you want and need rather than waiting for others to give you what you desire."



 

Damric

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

I have my driver's license and Social Security card in my wallet at all times, and my wallet is either in my pocket or on the dresser next to my bed, so is never out of arm's reach. My wife (who is a legal immigrant who has become a citizen) and I both keep out passports in our safe.

Talga Vassternich is an idea taken from a book:
"Deserve victory. Be justified in your convictions. Be completely committed. Earn what you want and need rather than waiting for others to give you what you desire."
Best keep it on you all times in Arizona with a name like that, lol.



 

llad12

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

Your "reports" are so right wing slanted, they look like they came off Glenn Beck's website, lol.
The extreme right-wingers luv to spread fear and loathing by calling-out some faction out as the root cause for all the troubles in the nation. If it's not the blasphemous gays or the Pinko-Commie Democrats, then it's the beaners.



 

Talga Vasternich

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

The extreme right-wingers luv to spread fear and loathing by calling-out some faction out as the root cause for all the troubles in the nation. If it's not the blasphemous gays or the Pinko-Commie Democrats, then it's the beaners.
I find it very funny that I'm talking about illegal immigrants, and you jump to "beaners".

Your bigotry is showing.
Best keep it on you all times in Arizona with a name like that, lol.
I also find it funny that I have posted facts and numbers, and you resort to identifying a different-sounding name.



 

Ephraim

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

OP: I find it odd that you take issue with this particular part of the new Arizona law. Illegal immigrants were already required by federal law to have identification on their person at all times. Check here and here.


There are other associated costs detailed in this report (fully sourced).
This does not include costs of identity theft.
This source doesn't tell the whole story. While the numbers provided appear authentic, they fail to show how much weight this actually holds with government spending. Illegal immigrants make up about 3.6% of the population of the United States, but only about 1.7% of the combined Federal, State, and Local spending is used on them. While that is a very large amount of money, it's only a small fraction of the total spending.

sources: 1 2 3 4


As far as death statistics, this report (also fully sourced)
The bit about the traffic accidents is irrelevant speculation. There is no substance to this claim because it isn't backed by facts.

Also, I take issue with your source on this one. The site itself is very partisan in nature, but I'm more concerned with their dubious source work. Of the 20 sources they listed for their article, five of them are irrelevant to what they're supposed to support, four of them are the writer citing his/her own work (in some cases these citations use this first article as a citation), one of them links to a page that doesn't exist, one cites a broken link, one cites an opinion page, and one actually contradicts the claims made by the article.


While we're on the subject of Arizona's new law, Sylvia Allen's claim about the ranchers in Arizona is a distortion. The violence is actually work of Mexican drug cartels.

Source


 

Talga Vasternich

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

OP: I find it odd that you take issue with this particular part of the new Arizona law. Illegal immigrants were already required by federal law to have identification on their person at all times. Check here and here.
You know that doesn't make for good headlines.
This source doesn't tell the whole story. While the numbers provided appear authentic, they fail to show how much weight this actually holds with government spending. Illegal immigrants make up about 3.6% of the population of the United States, but only about 1.7% of the combined Federal, State, and Local spending is used on them. While that is a very large amount of money, it's only a small fraction of the total spending.
sources: 1 2 3 4
Using your first two links, the population of the USA was just under 300 million and the low estimate of illegals was 11.5 million. This translates to an illegal population of just over 3.8% of the total.
I get slightly different numbers, but we're in the same ballpark concerning federal expenditures. Using your 3rd and 4th links, excluding defense and "remainder" (whatever that is), I calculate federal spending at 1.3%.
It's State spending where we disagree, excluding transport and "remainder" I calculate 7.3%.

This, to me, is the problem. The federal government is leaving the states hanging out to dry by not enforcing existing laws and not properly defending the border.
The bit about the traffic accidents is irrelevant speculation. There is no substance to this claim because it isn't backed by facts.
I agree to a certain extent. It's hard to come up with facts for people who don't officially exist and are not tracked.
Also, I take issue with your source on this one.
It's the best I wanted to do in a few minutes.
While we're on the subject of Arizona's new law, Sylvia Allen's claim about the ranchers in Arizona is a distortion. The violence is actually work of Mexican drug cartels.

Source
This makes me feel so much better about poorly defended borders.:coffee:



 

Ephraim

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

It's State spending where we disagree, excluding transport and "remainder" I calculate 7.3%.
Fair enough. I did notice that the state spending was a bit higher.

This makes me feel so much better about poorly defended borders.:coffee:
My point is that the Arizona law does nothing to stop them. The mexican gang members do not want to live in Arizona so the new law does not target them. This is the reason I'd put much more importance in border security rather than coercing current illegals out.


 

SaroDarksbane

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
Re: Silly Arizona

OP: I find it odd that you take issue with this particular part of the new Arizona law. Illegal immigrants were already required by federal law to have identification on their person at all times.
While true, in reality it is unlikely that a person will come into contact with federal agents with any regularity, whereas local law enforcement is an almost certainty.
The violence is actually work of Mexican drug cartels.
Indeed. The violence we bring on ourselves with our draconian drug laws is nothing compared to the violence it causes our neighbors south of the border.



 

Amra

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

There is no law that says you have to have ID with you, unless you are driving, or purchasing restricted items/services.

Do you really think they can detain/deport people for lack of documents?

My less than white friends and I are going to be conducting a social experiment where we go to Arizona and wear Mexican Futball memorabilia (available at Wal-Mart here in Alabama), holding yard tools with signs asking for work, and selling watermelons, while eating burritos, and having no ID in our wallets. I don't mind getting detained for a while, just to prove a point.
I don't think you have a clear understanding of the law.

Also, as we say around these parts, pics or it didn't happen. :thumbsup:



 

Noodle

Moderator
Re: Silly Arizona

Since I'm not white, it's alright.
Ah, so you feel that people should be held to different standards of conduct based on the amount of pigmentation in their skin. Should they drink from different drinking fountains as well?



 

Damric

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Silly Arizona

Ah, so you feel that people should be held to different standards of conduct based on the amount of pigmentation in their skin. Should they drink from different drinking fountains as well?
You mean like one for every color? What about ethnically challenged folks like myself, who's race/nationality can't be easily determined? That reminds me of when I was in the Navy, and I made it my goal to sleep with at least one female of every race. MMM life is like a box of assorted chocolates.



 

Noodle

Moderator
Re: Silly Arizona

That's totally irrelevant. The phrase "less than white" is inherently racist, regardless of the genetic background or sexual history of the person using it.
 
Top