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Silly Arizona

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Damric, Jul 10, 2010.

  1. Damric

    Damric IncGamers Member

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    Silly Arizona

    There is no law that says you have to have ID with you, unless you are driving, or purchasing restricted items/services.

    Do you really think they can detain/deport people for lack of documents?

    My less than white friends and I are going to be conducting a social experiment where we go to Arizona and wear Mexican Futball memorabilia (available at Wal-Mart here in Alabama), holding yard tools with signs asking for work, and selling watermelons, while eating burritos, and having no ID in our wallets. I don't mind getting detained for a while, just to prove a point.
     
  2. Tanooki

    Tanooki IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    How's your Spanish?
     
  3. SonataArctica

    SonataArctica IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Por que? Porrrr quuueeee!?
     
  4. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    What point would y'all be trying to prove?
     
  5. Damric

    Damric IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Not good enough.

    It's quite likely that we will get our butts kicked by real Mexicans before ever getting stopped by overzealous police.



     
  6. Damric

    Damric IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    that the law they passed is plain stupid. you can't require people to carry identification. I guess it's my libertarian side of me that hates big government doing things that it is has no business doing.



     
  7. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    What would be your suggestion to help alleviate the problems caused by illegal immigrants - specifically the thousands of deaths caused by illegals each year and the roughly $38 billion dollar per year price tag associated with the DIRECT economic cost of illegals?

    Aside from petulance, that is.



     
  8. Damric

    Damric IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Cost me money? They save me money. Imagine how much we would have to pay people to do the tedious and miserable jobs that they do for sub minumim wage. That is going to make everything cost more. What death statistics do you have?



     
  9. ohnoyellowdinosaur

    ohnoyellowdinosaur IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    so what's the real problem here? illegal immigrants or minimum wage laws? :whistling:


     
  10. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    AZ has a problem in that they get 30% of illegal immigration and 5% of the federal budget for controlling it.
    Ranchers need to be protected as do people crossing the dessert and the coyotes need to be thinned out from the wolves.
     
  11. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Imagine what your wages would be without millions of illegals working at sub-minimum wage.
    I was using 2007 data for the $38 billion cost... it's gone up to over $100 billion annually.
    Taxpayers pay for the medical care, education, and incarceration of illegal immigrants. There are other associated costs detailed in this report (fully sourced).
    This does not include costs of identity theft.

    As far as death statistics, this report (also fully sourced) details
    from article:
    In 2004, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimated 6.1 million traffic accidents resulting in 2,788,000 injured and 42,636 killed. (14) If we assume there are 20 million illegal aliens with a total US population of 300 million, this could mean 7%* of all accidents involve illegal aliens, which resulted in 195,160 injuries and 2,984 deaths in 2004 alone or over 29,800 needless deaths over the last decade. Arguably there is a known error factor but the NHTSA does not track the legal status of drivers or those injured or killed—but we do get a general ballpark worth considering. It’s not unfair to assume about 7% of highway deaths and injuries could have been avoided had illegal aliens not been present in the country to begin with.

    The reality is, illegal immigration currently results in the death of over 9,000 Americans per year, according to the Operation Safe America Report (7)




     
  12. Thomh

    Thomh IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    But it doesn`t seem like the illegal immigrants are really making things any worse percentage wise here. You could say the same reasoning about any group in the population.

    "The population has doubled in the last two decades. Since the number of accidents per 100 citizens has stayed pretty much the same I think it`s safe to say that these new citizens are responsible for an 100% increase in deaths" said Mr. Evil and added a possible solution to the problem: "We must kill or deport every other baby, it`s the only way!"


     
  13. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Driving is a privilige, not a right (as opposed to procreation). There are certain standards that have to be followed to both receive and maintain a valid driver's license. Unless they've stolen an identity, illegals cannot receive a valid driver's license. If one does not have a valid driver's license, one is not supposed to be driving at all.

    Illegals are not supposed to be driving, so every death caused by them on the road is completely avoidable - similar to drunk driving deaths.



     
  14. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Silly Arizona



    That kind of reasoning makes no sense. Following that logic, you could as well remove all humans but the billionaires and have nearly no costs like that at all. You have to consider the problem as a whole, not just a single aspect, like their participation in accidents or things which cost money, just like you cannot consider only the saved money because of their low wages.

    I doubt they are just there to mooch from the system or to produce costs. Most are there because they want to work and the only kind of work they can get is black labour, so the employers can save money by not paying taxes or social fees and paying lower wages. Many of them come into the land because of people smugglers who tell them fairy tales about a kind of paradise.

    I agree that the best way to deal with the problem is to prevent them from coming into the country in such an uncontrolled manner. It's the people smugglers and those who employ the immigrants who benefit from the whole. They are criminals and the profit of the second is meant to be made from tax evasion. The immigrants and the common people of the US are the victims, both pay for the profit of these leeches, the one with money, the other with blood, sweat and tears.



     
  15. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    I was responding to one specific fallacious point, not summarizing impact of illegal immigration.
    Did you even browse the two links I posted? Both are comprehensive concrening the social, criminal, and economic impact of illegal immigrants.
    Why do you doubt this?
    Even though they are here illegally, they gain the benefit of all government social programs, whether they work or not.
    Partly true, but it does not change the fact that they do so illegally.
    And don't forget those who come here illegally to avoid justful prosecution in their home countries for criminal activity as well as those who come into this country specifically to perform criminal activities, and those who come here for the medical care provided to them that is unavailable in their home countries .
    There are many, many examples of local, state, and federal enforcement arresting, prosecuting, fining, and imprisoning those who knowingly employ and traffic illegals. The greatest problem with this side of enforcement is the rampant identity theft which makes it extremely difficult for employers to successfully identify illegals.
    In addition, under Federal and California anti-discrimination laws, employers cannot illegally discriminate against any worker, including undocumented workers. Therefore, if you are an undocumented worker, your employer cannot fire you, refuse to hire you, harass you, or take other action against you because of your national origin.
    So if an employer hires an illegal and then finds out they are illegal (a "no-match" letter from the Social Security Administration), they are prohibited from terminating their employment, so MUST continue to employ a known illegal - kind of a catch22, don't you think?



     
  16. Damric

    Damric IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Your "reports" are so right wing slanted, they look like they came off Glenn Beck's website, lol.
     
  17. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Disprove the numbers if you believe they are inaccurate or provide any information to the contrary.



     
  18. Thomh

    Thomh IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    That is a good point. I just have a little question on the side.

    What if the illegal immigrant had a valid driver`s licence from his home country? (I didn`t need anything other than my norwegian one when I was in Boston, at least) Does US law say that he is now breaking the law again as he`s not allowed in the country in the first place and thus shouldn`t be driving. The reason I ask is because we had a rather strange case here some years ago where someone who built quite a fortune here was shown to be an illegal immigrant (he used fake documents to get in) and the government could have taken his entire fortune because of that (luckily reason was applied and he got away with a fine of unknown size). I was wondering how cases like that would be handled in the US:) It`s a tricky one. A rather clumsy explanation, but I hope my wording is clear enough.


     
  19. Damric

    Damric IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    As consumers, they pay an aweful lot in sales tax, and indeed most pay into payroll taxes such as SSI. I've seen this firsthand with the massive amount of illegal temp workers I work beside in the shipbuilding industry.

    1. It helps keep the economy moving by filling low-wage jobs.

    2. It provides a better life to individuals and families who enter the country illegally.

    3. It creates a pool of consumers for a variety of goods and services.

    4. Farmers are able to plant and harvest less expensively.

    5. Contributions to social security funds often go unclaimed.

    6. Illegal immigrants pay sales taxes.

    7. Illegal residents, who are property owners, also pay real estate taxes.

    8. Millions of illegals rent properties in depressed areas where renters are hard to find.

    9. They purchase real estate and generate commissions for agents and brokers.

    10. Illegal immigrants benefit financial services through consumer loans.

    11. They open bank accounts that yield interest and dividends to bankers.

    12. Illegals purchase auto insurance and contribute to profit margins.

    13. If we lost all of the illegal immigrant workers, our economy sould collapse from hyper inflation because we would have to raise the minimum wage, and all wages would need to scale accordingly to fill the job openings left by illegals.

    source

    source

    Of course, this has nothing to do with the original post. I am challenging the authority of anyone who says I need to carry identification to walk down the street.

    Ask me for identification and you can kiss it.



     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  20. Eggmanz

    Eggmanz IncGamers Member

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    Re: Silly Arizona

    Cow dung. The market would set itself right with regards to the jobs unfilled, and the state should have no right or reason to tamper with the minimum wage. Even if it did, the American economy collapsing due to hyper inflation is pure insanity. You get hyper inflation solely when base-necessity goods are scarce, like in Zimbabwe today. You might feel the economic cost of getting rid of illegals, but to claim that the economy would collapse is silly.

    Count your blessings that your social services don't have to spend nearly as much on illegals as the ones in Europe do.

    Any logical reason why?


     

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