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Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by phool, Jun 30, 2008.

  1. phool

    phool IncGamers Member

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    Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    Wondering on opinions of this - in D3 should you be able to create max level (or set level, for lld/mld) characters with accompanying character specific or more generally pvp-only gear, to be allowed access exclusively to pvp-only (no chests or enemies, presumably altered npcs) games.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one who detests the entry barrier for pvp currently present in D2, demanding excessive pvm grind to be competitive, or the advantage given the richer players (particularly with pp items). On the one hand builds in pvp-only areas would be even more cookie-cutter, right down to the rare rings if given total customisation. On the other hand, there would be no excuse for ducking call outs and more people pvping.

    There's no reason why pvp-only games and pvp in in pvm games couldn't co-exist, I actually don't support the idea of a 'no hostile' toggle on game creation.

    Thoughts?
    :coffee:
     
  2. YSM

    YSM Banned

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    Diablo III will be ruined if your type of mentality is in the majority. That's all I have to say. This isn't Guild Wars II, but Diablo III. What's next, Capture the Flag? *cringe*
     
  3. phool

    phool IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    By my mentality, you mean wanting to be able to pvp without grinding excessively in pvm? Care to clarify that?

    GW'd initial emphasis on skill>time, the foundation for any game that aspires to provide serious competition, is what attracted me to it and playing it til Nightfall. Still, much as I used to love GW pvp, I don't consider it comparable to D2 pvp, completely different player skillset being tested. And the item system is, perhaps by necessity, frankly boring in comparison.
     
  4. YSM

    YSM Banned

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    That's more or less correct (don't feel like disbunking the strawman), and there's no need for me to waste my time clarifying. I just don't like your taste in gameplay, and I hope Blizzard doesn't either.


     
  5. Tai.

    Tai. IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    I personally hope that nothing of the ilk ever gets instituted.
     
  6. phool

    phool IncGamers Member

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    While I'm interested in opinions, if I simply wanted to see where people stood on this and not why they stood there I would have done a poll. I have given one reason why I wouldn't like this implemented, the fully cookie-cutter setups being used en masse, if you have others I'd like to hear them. In all competitive games resistance to removing artificial and uninteresting pvp barriers is common, e.g. Sirlin's philosophy against over-complicated comboes in 2d fighters, so I'm not at all surprised to see disagreement. I can't understand it though; more people pvping means more opposition at all levels of play, and who wants to be required to grind hours of unskilled, repetitive play just to be able to compete with an unskilled kid with top gear fresh off ebay.
     
  7. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    I am 110% for that sort of system in WoW.
    I am 110% against that system in D3.

    Why am I against it for D3? Because hopefully D3 will have HC. But if you can rebuild instantly after death, what would the point of HC PvP be? The rush comes from having a fairly significant stake in the outcome of the fight, if there's no time investment, then who cares?

    Why am I for it in WoW? WoW wants to be a competitive game. The rush there comes from being the best, not from earing someone on a lucky crit or avoiding death on a lucky block, and being the best shouldn't involve time spent.

    Why do I want the two to not overlap? Because if I still wanted to play that sort of PvP I'd still be playing WoW or GW. Both are fun, my main b.net account has ~200 days/played, most of which is D2, my 3 warlocks combine for close ~150 days I think, maybe a bit more. If every game tries to be like WoW or GW in PvP, where would the rush of death come from?
     
  8. prion

    prion IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    so why not have all options available?
     
  9. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    Because it further divides the player base and hurts the community.
     
  10. prion

    prion IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    some of us aren't doing pvp at all.......some new options would give us a chance
     
  11. Tai.

    Tai. IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    Honestly, the gear requirements aren't particularly high for LLD. I know of a few people (Barry certainly comes to mind) who have made a killing - no pun intended - hunting during the ladder runs. Find a high damage weapon, carve a few ears, rinse and repeat.

    Do a few Normal Mephisto runs and you can easily find Crushflange and some Sigon's parts. That's a solid low level kicker right there, meaning you can be PKKing within a day or two of the new ladder.

    High level dueling is gear dependent, which has its ups and downs. It's hard to get into the high level PvP scene, as you have to risk so much gear (speaking HC here, never dueled in SC and don't ever plan to) and if it goes wrong you might get only one duel out the character. If we look at D2's past we see times when dupes were so rampant that every high level Barbarian was using almost identical gear (Ith weapons, CCBoQ, 3/20/20s and 40/15s have all been staples of PvP at times) and the scene became a joke. You would take the time, stat your barb out perfectly to get a bit of an edge and there was no reward. You could kill 20 Ith users and 20 more with identical gear would be right behind you, causing you to lose everything you worked for that one time someone got lucky crit rolls on consecutive hits.

    This could theoretically be solved by having people create and design their own PvP characters with no time investment, but what's the point of PvP then? You make a Barbarian using your ideal gear (Str/AR/ED/Leech/IAS etc.) and you face another Barb with the same gear and the two of you whirl at each other until one dies - then you take 10 minutes rebuild and have a rematch. Yawn.

    It's nice to be inclusive in PvP but by its nature I feel PvP should be exclusive. If you decide to risk your character by dueling another character you should do so with the understanding that you are risking your time and items for the thrill of the fight. If you spend 10 minutes creating a character and fight them to the death, sure you can get your feet wet in PvP, but you won't learn the correct whirl patterns as you won't have anything at risk and thus no reason to perfect your art.

    PvP is a great game feature, and something I suggest everyone try at least once. I think that on the whole it should be a challenge above and beyond PvM and if you can custom create your character in a couple minutes it won't be that.

    Take a brief example with Baranor and myself as combatants. Barry and I face off 50 times, he has skills I do not and a handle on PvP beyond my own, so he kills me the first 49 times. Each time I rebuild with the 'best' gear and one of two things happens: either I continue to throw the same tactics and approaches at him in which case I die the 50th time as well, or I change my approach and try some new tricks to give myself an edge. Option two is clearly the superior choice for me, as eventually I should stumble upon a new trick or tactic in my 'infinite' attempts. This moves the PvP scene forward and soon this tactic becomes the norm. Now someone improves on the Barb vs Barb matchup a bit more by adding an additional trick and so on and so on. At every juncture there arises a 'correct' way to fight that matchup and we have people facing off using the same approaches and the same gear. I personally wouldn't find it interesting to face another character with the exact same tactics, gear, life, blocking as me all day long.

    Maybe there could be some sort of organized PvP scene on D3 that would be item restrictive or something. We run tournaments (used to be frequently) over in the HC world where no jewels or charms are allowed and everyone gets loot back. This allows people to PvP with no real loss except the time spent on the character and still leaves a degree of distinction between gear. I would wholeheartedly support some sort of LLD guild that you could join that would set down rules for its games and leave open the option of gear variance and honestly hope we see something like that in D3.

    Wow, I feel like I've rambled to an insane degree here so I'll briefly sum up. In PvP you need a risk in order to create a distinction between duelers. This does not mean a hierarchy, but rather variance within the PvP arena. If everyone has the option of using the best gear at the highest level with no time commitment you get endless do-overs and no reason to treasure your creations. With an infinite amount of time spent dueling I fear we would reach a point that many games have (Age of Kings for example) where only one option is truly viable as it has been repeatedly tested and determined to be the 'best'. I don't want one dimensional PvP, I want PvP where people treasure their builds and think everything through because there is a real risk.
     
  12. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    Question: How many people do you see doing dueling tournies on open b.net?

    The feature you are asking for is already essentially in D2, and nobody uses it, least nobody from HC does... in my time on SC I never saw it being taken advantage of either, though it's possible that's changed in the last number of years.

    Why does nobody use it? Because D2's PvP really isn't very good at all, it's the fact that you're putting your time investment up against someone else's that makes it fun. As mentioned in the endgame balance thread, I really don't want to see that change. Some improvements would be nice, but I'd really hate to see it become as friendly as you'd like. There are other games that have fun PvP for the sake of fun PvP, there aren't other games that have PvP for the sake of having the other guy lose his time/you not lose yours, not outside of gambling anyways.

    Now, would I be incredibly opposed to the addition of that sort of PvP feature? No. Not any more than I dislike SC, NL, or open, anyways... it takes away from my player pool, but D3's player pool should be pretty huge at release anyways, so whatever.
    I would, however, be incredibly opposed to blizzard trying to turn D3's PvP into a borderline esport such as GW or WoW, because that just generates pointless whining from the community "BUFF ME! NERF THEM!" etc, and the only way a free pvp character feature would be any fun for anyone would be if they did start to focus on the balance aspects significantly more.



     
  13. Felix

    Felix IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    DII PvP is a place to show off and call the guy with all the gear names alongside the rest of us hiding in town. It's a place to go after hard days work of Baal running. Not an arena that makes you scream and shout. It's all about getting the loot, not having it handed over. Frankly I'm right alongside the guy you responded to.


     
  14. phool

    phool IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    I don't want to remove that, just add an arena suited for people who want to actually match their skills against like-minded players. And if choosing to pvp exclusively against people with **** equipment instead of similar equipment, when that's actually an option, made you look like you an ebay kiddy? I wouldn't want to remove that either.

    Except in classic lld, where you can be functional on a budget even to the point of competing with people with fairly expensive gear, lld is even more wealth dependent than hld, especially vlld where player skill takes back seat to build matchup and wealth. Naturally someone with a cheap, sensible setup (death's, angelics, twitch, pruby hat, random spare charms, 15 maxers... you know the drill) can slap around pvmers, but if they want to actually duel, not pk unprepared and unequipped chars (50 levels higher or otherwise... taking out a sorceress holding a maul is not something I would be proud of. though i admit it is rather satisfying.), in lod the difference between a fully jeweled and charmed lld and one made on a couple of ums or ists is astronomical.

    Pretty much your entire post is about pking rather than duelling, which are completely different topics entirely for me. Pking would be unaffected by adding a pvp arena.

    aka bvb in classic, imo utterly retarded due to being exclusively a test of luck and equipment (unless you want to play a lancer vs a bh barb and exploit range at least, but that's generally going to be pretty suicidal). Nevertheless one of the most popular forms of classic pvp... for me it's all about the svs in classic.

    Pretty much. Blizz certainly should not be trying to balance classes so they're all equally viable against each other, attempting to move build matchup RPS etc. It's basically impossible and loads of people would be antagonised trying. As people do in D2 however people could always match middle tier builds vs other middle tier builds, or really show off by being successful with middle tier vs higher tier builds - at least part of the D2 community is quite capable of regulating itself as necessary to increase their enjoyment. If Blizz did want to highlight pvp in some manner in D3, where everyone is a click away from finding out who the #1 bvb really is, or watch pvp ladder matches/tournaments, I don't see that as harmful, but only suited to team pk and same build matchups.

    I personally find the pvp - in terms of gameplay - in D2 to be really rich and unique. Naturally wagering many hours on the outcome of a match adds a lot to the adrenaline factor, but I and I imagine most players who would consider themselves pvpers do not require high stakes to be able to get a lot out of duelling.
     
  15. DeathByCactus

    DeathByCactus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    What a great way to water down an action RPG where one of the biggest purposes is to level up to be badass, and collect incredible gear to be more badass, then use that badassness on other NPC's and people.

    I believe the game you are thinking of is called CounterStrike, where everyone has body armor, a high powered rifle, grenades, and are on an equal playing field to start with.


     
  16. Dimmu

    Dimmu IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    You know...people make servers on d2 that are exactly what you are talking about....
    For a short time i was part a private server called D2Pk, I'm sure there at least a few people that know of it. Many of the best duelers on east played it, and it was kinda cool, it's actually probably still running, i'm not sure. Anyway, monsters on this server would drop nothing but 45 life skiller gcs, high runes, useful uniques such as CoAs, Shakos, arachs etc., torches, annis, awsome scs, and perhaps the coolest feature of d2pk was colored socketed items like 3os mage plates and all that. This meant making red, or white, or black, or whatever color runewords. You also leveled to 99 rediculously fast by the way. It was kind of badass.
    However, within the time i played on that server, it never felt that rewarding when i dueled people. It just wasn't nearly as fun as having to use (slightly) imperfect gear setups against other people's. And constantly needing to upgrade something when you could, along with deciding whether or not i want to rip one of my characters apart just to get another one closer to perfection. It seemed like it would be endless, effortless fun when i heard about it but it just wasn't that fun for very long. I'm sure others who have played would agree with me.
    So believe me, there are servers like this on d2, they're just usually very private. But it's not nearly as rewarding as building a PvP character the legitamate way. It sounds great in theory but you'd be dissapointed if it were actually implemented.
     
  17. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    Hack'n'Slash RPG is about building the strongest character you can. PvP should reflect that, not be separate from that. Your ability to win duels relies as much on your skill build and gear choices as it does on actual dueling ability. Having free cherry-pick-your-everything PvP would remove much of that skill. And yes, getting good gear is a skill. Statistically, even in D2, you will get good drops that trade well. If Diablo 3 improves many aspects of loot finding, it should be even easier in that game to make a character you want.
     
  18. phool

    phool IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    Yeah I know about d2pk though personally I've never taken advantage of it. Perhaps you're right, at least for casual pvp, for those of us who can put together an adequately high end setup some charm is lost. But what about the multitude of Diablo players who never even reach the level of wealth of being able to afford a staple enigma (on a new EuSCL that's far from trivial, in the region of 9 ists)? These people are pretty much barred from properly experiencing any worthwhile pvp altogether.

    I don't see why it would effect it, at all. In fact I believe the opposite is true; you're still picking your equip, but instead of picking merely from what you can find and trade for, you are picking from everything that can legitly spawn, giving you the ultimate control over minutae of gear selection. Either way, reverse-engineering builds is trivial so the skill of build creation shouldn't be considered a major factor - most people will just copy them.

    While these are valid player skills, they are certainly not PvP player skills, and as such should not be tested in a PvP environment.



     
  19. HappyAssassin

    HappyAssassin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    You're right high level PvP is for the wealthy elite (though players can do reasonably well with mediocre gear). It should stay that way. If you want a great character, you should need to put in the effort to get one. This doesn't necessarily mean endless Baal runs, you can be a skilled trader and become wealthy. The simple reality is that if you give people access to ALL the gear, they will find a few particular setups setups that achieve the best results and those will become standard. D2pk is great for a pure "test of skill," but the characters people make there feel soulless and identical.

    As an example, I took the assassin class in D2 apart from the ground up to find the best possible PvP setup. Was it more difficult because I had to find gear as I went along? Yes, it was, it would have been very easy to test setups if I could conjure up gear at will. I even did that a little, on B.net open. It was much more rewarding having to work for it though. My setup was eventually used as a cookie-cutter template for a lot of duelers, but their gear was all different. Nobody ever had exactly my assassin, and that was also rewarding.

    If anything, I think that in a dupe-free world where there is more emphasis on rares and/or fewer/no runewords (which were all the same), we will see more varied setups and more interesting duels. Making all the gear available would actually reduce the diversity of cool PvP builds, since people would have have to make due with what they've got. Hammerdins on classic were often better desyncers than those on expansion, because they had to be. Gear limitations encourage originality and skill.
     
  20. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?

    And that entirely defeats the point of the genre. Hack'n'Slash was never about skill in PvP. If everyone can just pick up and start PvPing off the bat with any equip and build they desire, this game's PvP will die very fast unless there is an entirely separate game and tier system for getting better items for doing well in PvP. Most players in Diablo 2 used PvP as a way to show off their character's awesome power, not show off their 1337 skillz (despite what they like to say). The tournament and the PvP between actual players who know their stuff is very rare.

    This game's combat system isn't nearly complex enough to have long lasting and popular PvP based purely on the player's combat skills. Now, I am speculating on that complexity part, but D3 is probably going to end up this way.

    Removing the PvM requirement for PvP is basically asking to reinvent Diablo 3 the game into Diablo 3: Arena. I can see why you find that appealing, but Diablo was never primarily a PvP game. It's PvM. Blizzard, in all probabilty, will not waste resources trying to develop 2 games in one. They will make Diablo 3, and then they will figure out how to add PvP that fits with the game's already existing mechanics. Why try to develop and balance a completely new system when you can just adapt the existing one?
     

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